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Race Tactics

Old 04-24-15, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by queerpunk
Yup.

Tuck in behind somebody with a great draft.
This is why I'm concerned for my first keirin race. I'm competing in a field of guys who will most likely be smaller than me as I'm a tallish guy.
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Old 04-25-15, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton
Watch as Kenny (first GB rider) leads out Hoy. Hoy can't go around in the 4th lane. Then Hoy does an absolutely amazing move.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_keqBnfKY7I[/vi deo]


(Please don't try this at home)
While I admire the move from a distance, the only reason why Hoy wasn't relegated was because it was Hoy. Moving someone off their line like that is blatantly against the rules and pretty dangerous besides. If Van Velthooven had protested directly, I think Hoy would have been relegated.

I mean, VV was moved from just above the black all the way to the stayers line. If it had been one of the younger guys... Instant relegation. Imagine if someone were overlapped up track on VV? Massive yard sale.
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Old 04-26-15, 09:24 AM
  #128  
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Remember that the Flying 200M is not just a fitness test. It is just as much technique as it is strength and power. For best results, practice it.

Dedicate an entire training day (or at least part of one) to flying 100s and 200s in full aero kit. If you don't have someone to time you, use Top Speed on your bike computer as a metric to track progress.
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Old 05-01-15, 12:59 PM
  #129  
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"Black Line Sprint Tutorial - Episode One - 3 up"


https://youtu.be/U-nxhcucB2Q
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Old 05-11-15, 12:53 PM
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In an elimination race would it a be a reasonable idea to attack with a few laps to go? Everytime I did so in training I got a shouting at.
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Old 05-11-15, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Banchad
In an elimination race would it a be a reasonable idea to attack with a few laps to go? Everytime I did so in training I got a shouting at.
Who was doing the shouting? Your coach/teammates or your opponents?

If it's your coach, it may be because he/she thinks that you don't have enough in you to stay off the front and place in the race.

If it's your opponents, they simply don't want the pace to pick up so early and be forced to chase which may screw up their sprint plans.
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Old 05-11-15, 02:21 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by defspace
Enduro here - what's the best way to hang in a keirin vs the big sprint boys? Jump early and hope you can stay off the front? Surf wheels and hope for 2nd place?
As someone without much snap in my legs, the way I like to race the keirin is to try and get the first spot behind the durney. As the faster riders attempt to come over the top, I can try and hold them wide as long as I can. If they make it around me, I can usually catch their wheel and get pulled into an easy second.
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Old 05-11-15, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
Who was doing the shouting? Your coach/teammates or your opponents?

If it's your coach, it may be because he/she thinks that you don't have enough in you to stay off the front and place in the race.

If it's your opponents, they simply don't want the pace to pick up so early and be forced to chase which may screw up their sprint plans.
It was the coach. I'm a LOT stronger now though. He never explained why it was he was shouting at me. Hence the asking. So I could potentially attack off the front, keep the speed high and then sprint for a place? I think I should be capable of something like that.
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Old 05-11-15, 02:57 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Banchad
So I could potentially attack off the front, keep the speed high and then sprint for a place? I think I should be capable of something like that.
Everybody does, hahaha! Then we all die a horrible death as we go from 1st to 7th within a half lap of the finish


Originally Posted by Banchad
It was the coach. I'm a LOT stronger now though. He never explained why it was he was shouting at me. Hence the asking.
It was probably because he wanted you to sit in and have a chance at placing via a field sprint.

Going off the front and soloing for a win is very hard. The pack behind you has the benefit of a draft and they are spending 75% of the energy that you are spending to go the same speed.
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Old 05-11-15, 03:30 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Banchad
In an elimination race would it a be a reasonable idea to attack with a few laps to go? Everytime I did so in training I got a shouting at.
The question is - when? If it's too early, it's just a pointless attack. It has to be late enough that nobody is going to chase. In cat 3 races I used to attack all the time when the race got down to 4 or 3 riders. This tactic never failed me as a 3. Never tried it in 1/2 races - even the eliminations I won had me sufficiently gassed that I didn't think I could launch an attack to win.

Anyway, here's how it works. The race is at the back. Nobody wants to be the first person to chase. Everybody hesitates. As soon as you have a gap, everybody else realizes that they're fighting for second - literally, right now - and they would have to sacrifice that greatly to give anybody else a chance at 1st.

Nobody wants to chase you down for the people getting a free ride, not with a sprint coming up.

Anyway. I think it's a good tactic. Ask your coach WHY they think it's a bad idea.
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Old 05-11-15, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by queerpunk
The question is - when? If it's too early, it's just a pointless attack. It has to be late enough that nobody is going to chase. In cat 3 races I used to attack all the time when the race got down to 4 or 3 riders. This tactic never failed me as a 3. Never tried it in 1/2 races - even the eliminations I won had me sufficiently gassed that I didn't think I could launch an attack to win.

Anyway, here's how it works. The race is at the back. Nobody wants to be the first person to chase. Everybody hesitates. As soon as you have a gap, everybody else realizes that they're fighting for second - literally, right now - and they would have to sacrifice that greatly to give anybody else a chance at 1st.

Nobody wants to chase you down for the people getting a free ride, not with a sprint coming up.

Anyway. I think it's a good tactic. Ask your coach WHY they think it's a bad idea.
This is what I was trying to describe. I'll ask the coach next time I see him.
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Old 05-11-15, 03:53 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Banchad
This is what I was trying to describe. I'll ask the coach next time I see him.
But....

If you don't gap them off far enough, they will simply just sit on your wheel and wait for you tire then come around you.

A teammate like me, who has no chance of placing in such an event, will kill myself to bridge the gap for my teammate(s) and tow them along then I'll either sit in or retire from the race.

EDIT:

It's sometimes expected of lower-ranking members of a team (even a track team) to do stuff like that. Especially if the Sr members have a road background.

Last edited by carleton; 05-11-15 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 05-11-15, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
But....

If you don't gap them off far enough, they will simply just sit on your wheel and wait for you tire then come around you.

A teammate like me, who has no chance of placing in such an event, will kill myself to bridge the gap for my teammate(s) and tow them along then I'll either sit in or retire from the race.
Unfortunately the rest of my team are roadies. I AM the track division.
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Old 05-11-15, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Banchad
Unfortunately the rest of my team are roadies. I AM the track division.
If they are roadies, then they may try to do some crit tactics (i.e. lead-out trains and whatnot). Also, attacking like that may undermine what your teammates may have going on. But, if it's lower category local racing, it may not be a big deal at all.

But, like queerpunk says, ask your coach.
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Old 05-11-15, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
If they are roadies, then they may try to do some crit tactics (i.e. lead-out trains and whatnot). Also, attacking like that may undermine what your teammates may have going on. But, if it's lower category local racing, it may not be a big deal at all.

But, like queerpunk says, ask your coach.
Sorry, What I meant to say was I am going to be a solo rider. My team mates will not be competing(at least this time, I reckon I can bring 1 or 2 to the dark side by the next competition)
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Old 05-12-15, 05:18 AM
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If it is a training race then perhaps the coach wanted the group to stay together so the training was about learning race skills rather than it just being about fitness.
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Old 05-12-15, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by zizou
If it is a training race then perhaps the coach wanted the group to stay together so the training was about learning race skills rather than it just being about fitness.
Wouldn't learning how to chase down attacks be classed as a race skill?
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Old 05-12-15, 07:31 AM
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Not really, and certainly not the chief skill you should take away from practicing a miss and out. Should really be learning positioning there.

There's also not usually that much point in attacking a miss and out near the end, because if you're an absolutely useless sprinter you're probably already out, and the sprints at the end are won based on being less blown rather than being the best sprinter when you're fresh,so if you have the legs to attack, you probably also have the legs to win the sprint.
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Old 05-12-15, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wens
there's also not usually that much point in attacking a miss and out near the end, because if you're an absolutely useless sprinter you're probably already out, and the sprints at the end are won based on being less blown rather than being the best sprinter when you're fresh,so if you have the legs to attack, you probably also have the legs to win the sprint.
more panache
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Old 05-12-15, 03:32 PM
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There is that.
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Old 05-14-15, 04:57 AM
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I did my first Keirin last night. It was a blast and I placed third. Couple of observations and questions:
Drafting I thought was super easy (I race criteriums a lot, so being tight to a wheel is normal for me), but I saw some riders in front of me who didn't seem comfortable and kept going up track. It looked more like they were uncomfortable than jockeying for position. When this happens, do I just slot into sprinters lane and not worry about the guys up track?

We got the bell, and I came around 2 guys (I was sitting 4th wheel when the derny puled off) going into turn 2. I was trying to mark the wheel of the guy who ended up winning. He did a slight wheel flick and pushed me up track. I lost some speed, but still got on top the gear enough to place 3rd. Afterwards, the winning rider told me he looked back and thought I was going to come over the top. So he decided to do a small flick to cause me to lose momentum. It didn't seem aggressive to me at the time; question here is whether this is common or not for Keirins?
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Old 05-14-15, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Stas87
I did my first Keirin last night. It was a blast and I placed third. Couple of observations and questions:
Drafting I thought was super easy (I race criteriums a lot, so being tight to a wheel is normal for me), but I saw some riders in front of me who didn't seem comfortable and kept going up track. It looked more like they were uncomfortable than jockeying for position. When this happens, do I just slot into sprinters lane and not worry about the guys up track?

We got the bell, and I came around 2 guys (I was sitting 4th wheel when the derny puled off) going into turn 2. I was trying to mark the wheel of the guy who ended up winning. He did a slight wheel flick and pushed me up track. I lost some speed, but still got on top the gear enough to place 3rd. Afterwards, the winning rider told me he looked back and thought I was going to come over the top. So he decided to do a small flick to cause me to lose momentum. It didn't seem aggressive to me at the time; question here is whether this is common or not for Keirins?
It's common...and potentially illegal.

If the rider leaves the sprinters lane while flicking/sweeping, then it's illegal. That means that they intentionally obstructed your path.
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Old 05-14-15, 07:17 AM
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We were not in sprinters lane when this happened. It is good know that is potentially illegal though.
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Old 05-14-15, 08:00 AM
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To your point about drafting - sometimes in keirins, people go uptrack a little bit to ensure that they have a good line forward. It's called "keeping your front wheel clean." Since I'm not much of a sprinter I rely on the opposite tactic - coming from behind and boxing in a rider behind whoever's in front of him.

Anyway, I'm not sure if the riders you saw were defending their positions and trying to keep their front wheels clean, but it's something to think about.

As for that flick - common tactic, and like carleton says, potentially illegal. Also, note that if you're in a position to do it, you're sprinting full gas and you are running out of steam and afraid that somebody else is gonna come around you. If you try and flick right to the red line, know that it's so, so, so easy to overshoot. Be careful. You don't want to flick yourself into somebody.
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Old 05-14-15, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Stas87
We were not in sprinters lane when this happened. It is good know that is potentially illegal though.
It's up to the local race director as to how much shenanigans they will tolerate. I'm more on the strict side and wouldn't allow it. None of us on the local level are getting paid to do this and if there is a wreck, we could miss work/school. Not worth it.

Most racers do it as a posturing scare tactic. It works. One good way it works is running into turns 1 or 3, if the lead rider (coming towards the end of the straight) flicks up and comes back down before the turn but sends the rider on his hip to climb into the turn a bit, this forces the 2nd rider to scrub off a couple kph which may be enough to lose a race. This even works in match sprinting.

That being said, it's not worth it. Especially in a Keirin where you have 6 people barreling full-on. That flick could cascade into a mess.

All it takes if for the race director to relegate one or two for racers to get the picture and stop completely. Also, relegate even if it happens incidentally.
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