Hard to say. I'm usually pretty good about staying hydrated though. Whether or not the creatine was responsible for the cramping, it certainly didn't seem to add anything to my cycling performance (such as it is :D).

Creatine can cause cramping if you don't drink enough. Anyone on a creatine phase should be drinking a couple of litres of water a day.


edit: and it won't improve your cycling performance unless your events are ~90 seconds or shorter.

Really only for power athletes.

I always used Optimum Nutrition whey (seems the most popular no-frills brand) $25 for 5lbs, it mixes easily with a spoon.

I never tried the Costco whey. I might get some.

Creatine isn't really useful for endurance athletes.

Nutrition is complicated- on the one hand, 'yes' you do need protein and not just the small amounts contained in friut, vegetables and grains but, instead; fish, red meat etc...on the other hand combining starchy foods with protein is the worst possible combination for the digestive system. If I may offer some solid facts to the case; one of America's most distinguished nutritional therapists Dr Herbert M Sheldon writes:
...when one consumes protein and strach together, the alkaline enzyme ptyalin pours into the food as it's chewd in the mouth. When the masticated food reaches the stomach, digestion of starch by alkaline enzymes continues unabated, thereby preventing the digestion of protein by pepsin and other acid secretions. The even present bacteria of the stomach are thus permitted to attack the protein and putrefaction commences, rendering nutrients in protein foods largely usless to you and producing toxic wastes...

without wanting to harp on about nutrition, I think it is important to realise that- it is not just the daily requirements of protein, carbs and fats we must meet, but also how they are consumed or combined!

It is easy to get sucked into the pro-protein hype of recent years, but just remember swedish heavyweight bodybuilder Andreas Cahling, winner of Mr Europe and Mr universe, was a frugivore- he eat no meat, dairy, or even grains or vegetable, just a ton of fruit- and he was big and ripped.

I'd suggest eating a heap of carbs after a ride and then a few hours later in the evening, consume protein (fish, meat) and a heap of vegies.....

just some observations I found over the years to be effective.......

The only problem I see with separating the protein and the carbs is that the protein digested wouldn't benefit from the insulin response stimulated by the carbohydrates.

Insulin is how the protein gets to the muscle.

P.S. I never heard of carbohydrates impairing the digestion of protein. Interesting you brought that up.

I get my protein intake during my ride! :D

I guess I'm not a real cyclist because I come home and consume a big slab of dead cow after a big ride. Although I do throw some carbs in there too in the form of Guinness.

http://www.neebu.net/~khuon/albums/m...e/PICT0020.jpg

I dig that Red Hook jersey.

hey 53-11,

i think your initial question is of interest... although i would rephrase it to be: why do most cyclists concentrate much less on diet than other athletes, say weight lifters?

1: for most cycling the # of calories and the sheer maximum availability of energy is the #1 factor -- and carbs are usually the best way to "preload" and "recover"

in this sense i would say cyclists do care about nutrition - almost all racers i know add energy powder to their water, take lots of time testing different bars and such to see which they can digest during a ride and have tried some kind of recovery drink like Endurox or Revenge.

as to the comparision with weight lifters:
* comparitively, i think the effect of diet is more pronounced in weight lifting - i.e. you can have a top-level cyclists who has no diet planning and eats like crap but a top-level weight-lifter with a poor diet is (i think) less likely.
* cyclists have many other aspects to worry about they might bring as much or more impact: bike, clothing, etc. weight trainers

as to the comment about body fat percentage: it has mainly to do with goals: for a cyclist the goal is to increase power per gram and endurance/efficiency and other than the power/weight ratio it is irrelevant how much body fat -- actually a few years ago i had well under 8% body fat (around 6 i think) and it actually HURT my cycling as i had less endurance and energy reserves. for a body builder i think it is virtually impossible to have too little fat (although if you look at power lifters where maximum weight rather than "form" is judged, then most have relatively high level of fat - by my guess 8-15% rather than the 4-8% of body builders) -- it is quite likely that a cyclist with 10% body fat can beat one with 6% body fat b/c of better power/weight ratio via more strength or more likely through better endurance and/or aerobic capactiy (cycling is more aerobics and enduracne than raw power)

--> body builders obsess about lowering their body fat
--> cylists obsess about decreasing their resting pulse rate, increasing their VO2 max and their power/weight ratio AND reducing the weight of thier bicycles and getting every possible equipment advantage (e.g. tire with lower rolling resistance)

lastly, the REALLY low body fat levels that body builders strive for are not really all that healthy (my opinion as a previously 6-8% and now 8-9% body fat - even if i still had enough time so i COULD i would not want to be 4% body fat - probably not under 7% even though it "feels cool") and many of the techniques that body builders use like not drinking water or no-carbs or whatever would likely inhibit effective cycling endurance training and recovery.

bottom line: yes, cyclists who really want to excell should also consider diet as part of their training. as a previously horrible eater (mostly fast-food, coca-cola and sugar at age 20), in the last years i have really improved my diet and my cycling performance has also benefitted.

P.S. i weight train occaisonally (i try twice i week but average about once a week) but about 4 years ago used to weight train 5-6 days per week for about 2 years (now no time to cycle train 4+ days/week AND weight train so often) --- general health benefits from weight training are high, but direct benefits for road cycling are minimal although for mountain biking relatively high (bike handling and injury protection)

Weightlifters as in powerlifters/Olympic lifters have to make weight classes, so the "cut" ones you see are at the top end of one weight class but not interested in going to the next. So they cut to make weight. In weightlifting a little body fat is good, helps towards calmness of mind and adds some "structural" strength to the muscles.

Bodybuilders aren't concerned with strength, they're concerned with looks. However, the training and the posing routines take more strength than outsiders realize. They do tend to go for whatever's this year's fad, and what they mainly know about is how to build up and cut down. I'd consider a top bodybuilder just as much an "athlete" as a top Olympic lifter, they're just different sports.

Cyclists tend to do a little of everything - power going up a hill, explosive power outsprinting another cyclist, that neighbor's $%@#$ dog, or beating a car across an intersection. And this is intersparsed with endurance, cyclists are really all-around athletes. And if you look at what the top guys ate, it was pretty much an all-round diet. I've even read about cyclists in Europe eating horse, because that's considered just another meat over there, or at least was. I've never heard of a top cyclist being an Atkins, vegan, or "engineered food" eater, just all around, some meat, some pasta, some veggies, good all around diet and lesser amounts of beer, chocolate, ice cream etc.

In my own experience when I was putting lots of miles in, my fave after a ride meals were either a huge burrito with plenty of carnitas (roast pork) in it and beans, veggies, you know they throw everything in there, or a half chicken with butter and garlic at Super Pollo with the required refried beans and salad, and if I was really hungry I'd eat the rice. Riding a lot made me crave far less of the "sinful" foods like beer, ice cream, candy, etc. I was always hungry for good old meat, pasta/beans, and veggies.

Is that ~90sec events or multiple ~90sec efforts?

NB. AIS medical jury is still out on the benefits of creatine across all sports, so I don't think it's worth paying money for (or using if you get it for free!).

I eat the rich and pick my teeth with the poor.

Enjoy

Did ya'll see the fast food thread? It seems many people are eating poorly!

Got any studies that show that protein in a recovery formula is essential/beneficial? I'm talking about the short recovery window, right after exercise.

This review of literature from the AIS says that protein "may promote additional glycogen recovery when carbohydrate intake is suboptimal or when frequent snacking is not possible". Not really a ringing endorsement.

This study found "that the availability of amino acids is more important than the availability of energy for postexercise repair and synthesis of muscle proteins." This study has been called into question, because they didn't match the calorie content of the protein and the no-protein recovery drinks. Subjects may have gotten better recovery, simply because they got more nutrition.

The jury still seems to be out, but I'm still putting a scoop of whey protein in my recovery drink. It can't hurt.

Power events....sprint, 1000m TT, Olympic sprint etc. etc It increases the muscle's cross-section, theoretically leasding to more power. No benefit for sustained endurance efforts....could even be detrimental.

I know the French rugby federation has banned it's use.

kdneys are the main worry if you are taking high doses. There's vigorous debate on both sides.

Don't speak for all of us amigo. All the cyclists I know, including myself, are obsessed with nutrition (carbs, proteins and what have you). Sure I get to pig out on pasta, but is whole wheat and I make my own sauces and bread.

Jeebus, some people can even demonize good ol' spaghetti and meatballs.

Most recovery drinks used by cyclists have about a 4-1 ratio of carbs to proteins. I think 53-11 has some very good points.

With all this arguing, I cant help but notice that people are missing out on the main fault in the original argument:

who puts banana and honey on a bagel without also adding peanut butter?

I'll think about your advice while I'm slamming a back a 6-pack of beer after my ride.

I think poor eating habits are found across the board for all types of sports. I wouldn't single out cyclists over runners over lifters, this is regarding the more recreational type of person, once you get to the professional level of any sport, nutrition will start making a big difference in performance and since their jobs are to perform, they will tend to pay closer attention. I also think people tend to overlook that different sports will have slightly different nutrional needs, hence what works for bodybuilding may not be the best for cycling.
For me personally, I have found eating or drinking protein before, during and after to be more effective i.e. faster, stronger, and feel better than just carbs alone.
Yeah on the peanut butter on the bagel with banana and honey!!!!! Thats some good eating there, protein, carbs, fruit, and sugar. Sounds like my normal breakfast.

Never truer words spoken....

I'm sorry for the long post but since this is the nutrition forum and the last couple of posts were getting a little ugly i figured i'd share.

It's my understanding and I may be wrong, but the reason why cyclists eat alot of carbs is because they are the body's primary source of energy. The body breaks them down into muscle glycogen which the body draws upon to do work. When you run out of glycogen your blood sugar will carry you on for a bit which is why sugary food is a necessity as well. However, By this time you are on your way to bonking.

As for recovery. after your body's stores of muscle glycogen are delpeted your body will be looking to replenish them. So by eating a high carb meal after riding you are giving your body what it needs/ is looking for. Also, during this time your body will break down carbs and sugar more efficently and essentially refill glycogen stores quicker (carb loading) yielding a rebound effect.

Proteinis not used, or more acurately very rarely used as energy for the body. Protein is used in muscle repair. Exercise causes small tears in muscle when these are repaired the muscle becomes stronger/bigger. Weight lifters eat high protein to bulk up. While protein is important to a cyclist in terms of muscle repair. It is not the focus of a cyclists diet. Think about it this way...the cyclist's goals are not the same as a weight lifter's so why would they eat the same?

I hope this helped. If not, then oh well I wasted some time.

+1

Excellent postage.


Thread can stop here.