climbing speed (choice?)
 

I've been a cyclist for about 20 years. I am a bit on the heavy side for a cyclist at 80-85kg. However I ALWAYS find it remarkable that people RACE up gradients or can choose their cadance/intensity.

It always seems to me that my effort is dictated by the gradient. When the road kicks up I have to push harder and I'm always around what feels like max sustainable effort (around 170 bpm - this seems to be my threshold effort. (age 38) I dont feel that I can go harder. I train with intervals and I'm quite fit (I think).

On the flat I can average 30+km/h for about 30km without going ALL out. I'm not sure if I've ever really gone ALL OUT. I don't race.

On a significant local climb - very steep (7-14%) around 3.5km long - I can do it in about 19 mins. Not impressive, not even top 40 on Strava. I know my weight is against me and I'm on that but am I missing something else? That effort was bloody hard. Then again I did take 1 minute off my previous best time so maybe I'm not really GOING HARD?

https://www.strava.com/activities/42...ts/10280194587

Perhaps my legs are too weak?

I have similar feelings in a headwind....

Am I misininterpreting what it means to choose an effort on serious (5-20%) climb?

Am I doing somethig wrong? Help!

All advice and comments appreciated.

It's not quite clear what your question is. Yes, most people will go harder on climbs than on the flats. They'll settle into a steady rhythm as you appear to have done. If you are having trouble adjusting your intensity I suspect your gearing is too high and you don't have a low enough gear to ride comfortably at a reasonable cadence.

As for going up the hill faster, a structured training program to increase your power and losing weight will both help but it's still going to hurt going all out up a 20 min hill :)

I am also not quite clear what your question is.

One thing ... you mention 7-14% and 5-20% grades. There's quite a difference between a relatively gradual 5% or 7% grade and a steeper 14% or 20% grade.

I'm not a hill climber, but for me, as long as a grade is under 10%, it's not too bad ... unless it goes on for a long time, then it gets a bit tiring. But when a grade is over 10%, that's difficult, and I can't last for very long on those ones.


What's stopping you from going faster on the climbs? Do your legs get tired? Does something else get in the way, like perhaps, it's too hard to breathe?

When I was heavier, my lungs would give out long before my legs on climbs. I had a lot of difficulty breathing. But I've recently lost 24 kg and I've noticed that my lungs are handling climbs now, and I'm climbing faster and easier, but eventually my legs become fatigued.

Sorry I guess my question was vague.

My my question is in regard to choice of effort.

i don't really feel like I have a choice in how hard I ride. Often I feel that it is taking a pretty much max effort to keep the cranks turning. My gearing isn't high. I'm running a 34-28 (I think). I have no conception of being able to race in this situation. I'm in survival mode from a few minutes in.

Im in a bubble. I am aware of my surroundings but I feel shut off. My heart bangs, my breathing is hard. I want to stop. But I don't. I cannot fathom the concept of an acceleration at this point. Or doing 'an effort' as I may do on the flat.

At flatter sections I can push myself on a bit but the difference in speed is small.

When I talk about the grade of the climb it starts off under 5% rises to above 7% with ramps of 14%. It seems to get harder towards the top.

i accept I am too heavy to climb well and I am dieting.

However I also wonder if my legs are weak or is my will too weak to push harder.. Is this how climbing just is? Am I getting the wrong impression when people talk about 'spinning' a climb?

19 minutes up a 3.5km long 7.1% climb is an average of 3 m/s. At 85 kg, that's about 2.5 watts/kg.

OP, I'm not much of a climber but I have raced. Racing on a hilly course is hard, because you have to go at the pace dictated by the pack. That can often entail going all-out, because the hills are often where the stronger riders will try to force a selection.

2.5 watts/kg isn't very much, and a half-decent time-triallist would average 40kph for an hour, not 30 kph. So I suspect you aren't pushing yourself as hard as you might. Have a look at your intervals and consider increasing the intensity.

The problem is unlikely to be leg strength, by the way. Climbing is about aerobic fitness, not leg strength.

If you don't feel you have a choice of effort on a climb, your gearing is too high for that climb. That said, there will always be a climb that's beyond comfortable no matter what gearing you have because there are upper and lower limits to the gearing which most folks would choose for 99% of the riding which they do.

You want to be able to spin at least an 80 cadence on your usual climbs. When you can do that, it's easy to back off the effort. On long rides, it's all about pacing yourself. You can't do that if you're stressing yourself to the limit on every climb. Bike tourers will go all the way down to a triple with a 22T granny and a 11-34 cassette. I have a good climbing bike with a triple with a 26T granny and an 11-25 cassette. If you are interested in geeking this out with calculators, we can recommend some good ones.

If your climb has between 7% and 14% grades and you have proper gearing, it should be both possible and desirable to shift from your lowest to the next gear up where the road levels out to the 7%, If you cannot, your gearing is too high. 36-28 for 14% is not low. Easy for some, but that few are the ones we call "climbers". I know. I am a born mountain goat. I used to like to go to the .9 mile (1.4km) hill near my house and climb the 400' on a 42-14 when I was 23 yo. Now, that was a high gear. Shifting to a cog higher on the flatter parts - no way, not even for this goat. Now I much prefer using a triple with a 28 inner and change cassette cogs depending on the terrain and my conditioning. Low in back varies between 23 and 28 with 28 gearing getting more use as I get older. Now, you are riding a gear (36-28) that is almost 30% higher than my 28-28 and you outweigh me by 30 pounds.

I am not saying this to shame you. We all have to find gearing for hills that works for us. What others use means zero. Based on what you have said, I would suggest considering going 28-28 or even 28-32 for your low. This means a triple. Money spent, new shifting patterns to learn and accepting that you aren't on the "hot" setup. But, you can learn to love triples. They have real advantages. Those low gears for the hills (and that can be gears plural, not jut locked into that lowest and dying) and a better selection of flat ground gears. I have been riding triples for 40 years. Raced the usual double but when I finished racing, I had the Peter Mooney of my user name built around the idea of using that same racing gearing with a third 28 tooth inside ring. Except for two years of trying a double again 10 years ago, all my geared bikes have had triples. Makes hills fun!

Ben

Appropriate gearing is relative to your power to weight ratio.

You can drop your numbers in to analytic cycling's power from speed and speed from power calculators. Use your total weight - you plus bike and extras like water.

Or use back-of-the-envelope calculations. Up steep hills about 10% of your power is going into rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag. So

power in Watts = 1.1 * mass in kg * 9.8 m/s^2 * altitude in meters / time in seconds

At cycling grades distance along the slope is close enough to its horizontal component; as in at 10% distance = sqrt(1^2 + .1^2) = 1.005 so you can approximate

speed in meters / second = power / (1.1 * mass in kg * 9.8 m/s^2 * grade)

Multiply by 60,000 to get mm per minute. Divide that by tire roll-out in mm approximated as 3.14 * (622mm for 700C wheels + 2 * tire width in mm) to get rear wheel RPM. Divide by desired crank cadence to yield gear ratio.

In good shape I weigh 135-137 pounds and have an FTP (one-hour power) of 220W for 3.5-3.6W/kg.

With 25 pounds of clothes, bike, and water bottles that's good for 3.9 meters/second up a 7% grade. At 80 RPM I could use 39 x 28 or 34 x 25. Letting my cadence drop to 60 I could make do with 39x21, 34x19, or even 50x28.

As an approximation :
220 W / (1.1 * 73.5 kg * 9.8 m/s^2 * .07) = 4.0 m/s

4.0 m/s * 1000mm/m * 60 seconds/m / (3.14 * (622mm + 25mm * 2) = 114 RPM
114 RPM / 80 RPM = 1.425
39/1.425 = 27

At 10% and 2.9 meters/second I could use 34x33; although at 60 39x28 or 34 x 25 would be fine.

At my worst I've reached 205 with an FTP no more than 185W for 2.0W/kg.

In the same conditions that only allows 2.9 meters/second on a 7% grade. At 80 RPM I'd need a 34 x 33 or 39 x 38. At 60 RPM it'd be 39x28 or 34x25.

At 10% and 2.1 meters/second at 80 RPM I'd need a 34 x 46 which isn't possible. Dropping to 60 RPM 34x33 would just do.

For a 20 minute climb you might multiply those speeds by about 1.05 and reduce the required gearing for a certain cadence by the same factor, as in 34x31 not 34x33 although there'd be nothing left at the end.

An all day pace is about 2/3 the one hour numbers and require corresponding gear changes; as in where 39x25 worked I'd need 39x38 or 28x27.

It's a function of getting waste products out of your muscles, not strength. You aren't doing anything specific to improve power at your lactate threshold, and that's especially bad when you divide by relatively high weight.

So that's about 11 km/h on a 7% grade? IMO that's fast. I wouldn't be complaining about that!

You rode up that at an estimated 285w for 18 minutes. (yes, strava estimates aren't great, but it's an approximation). That gives you a FTP of 270w, which is just fine.

When a grade is 5% or above, spinning isn't an option. You're riding at 100% doing whatever you can in the last gear or two. You can probably "spin" up something shallower, and if you were lighter you might have some variation even at 5%. Once you get to an average of 7-8% it's gonna be a *****.

To pull out the trite quote, it doesn't get easier, you just get faster. Meaning it's going to feel like that same amount of effort, but you'll look at Strava and see you did it in 17 minutes, then 16:30. You aren't going to KOM on it (12 minutes).

Unless you are young and working on being a pro, then ignore all the above. But I assume you're a normal civilian like the rest of us.

Thanks guys. I've improved a lot this year after being away from cycling for a while. I can drop another 15kg and keep working the intervals. I'm also going to get a new bike and will be looking for an 11-32 cassette in the rear. Thanks for all the responses.

You haven't. If you've ever gone all out, you would know it.

Anyway, you're doing great. Keep riding up that hill and keep watching what you eat.

I have a fairly crappy road bike that weighs 10kg. I just went and counted the teeth. My smallest gear is a 36x25. I'm hoping to get a new bike in the spring and I might go all out and get a 34x32 lowest gear. That plus continued training and weight loss might have me spinning up the climbs.

Thanks again fellas.

That's a tough hill that is at the limit of your abilities and you are doing fine.

A few years ago when I was in much better shape and living in Canberra, I regularly did hill repeats on a hill just a little harder than what you've described. I know I benefitted from those hill repeats - I could feel it when I climbed other less extreme hills - but over the several months when I was doing them, I didn't see a whole lot of improvement on my performance on that hill. I could accelerate a little on the false flats (which I think were maybe 4-6%), but not much, and on the 10-14% sections, I was just surviving. AFAIK, I was averaging in the 10-12 km/hr range.

It's absolutley at the limit of my abilities! I was delighted to just survive up it without putting a foot down the first time I did it in September. Promisingly, I've done it 4 times since then and I've gone a bit faster each time.

I always feel like I'm having an asthma attack and about to die.... I guess thats just me and cycling though ;)