Originally Posted by RomansFiveEight

I'm not worried about GMO's. In fact, I think they're brilliant. And they've been going on for centuries. Good farmers have always cross-bred plants or taken care to get the biggest yields. Over centuries crops like corn were developed through cross-breeding. By the strictest definition ALL corn is a GMO. It is not naturally occurring, it exists because of human intervention, and would not exist without humans having 'created' it. Pesticides and the like, and antibiotics (the latter only being a concern, obviously, in meat) are certainly a concern. However a world in which plants yield more, are immune to disease, require less water; that's not a bad thing. We hear "genetically modified" and conjure up images of evil laboratories and spider-man, but it's really just a fancy way of doing more intelligently and more scientifically what farmers have ALWAYS done. Given natural selection and evolution a little 'nudge' to improve their 'product'. Heck, much of our meat that we eat is indeed that same process. Fat, fast growing, big and slow. Qualities bred by selecting the right candidates for breeding over many many many years. Same with most domestic animals really, from pets to farm animals.

I don't jump on the "chemicals are bad!!!" bandwagon. Chemicals are the basics of life. Our blood has formaldehyde and other scary words naturally that people try to scare other people out of eating certain foods by claiming it's in that particular food. So fear-mongering about GMO's or "chemicals in foods" is just junk science. I notice a lot of arguing about junk science on the meat eating crowd; which is warranted. But Vegans tend to share their fair share of utter B.S. as well. Nobody is immune to confirmation bias.

One of the bigger issues of 'organic' is that there's so little to really control what that label means. Everything is 'organic' anyway. There's no such thing as a plant or animal that's not "organic", i.e., "derived from living matter". So it's just a marketing buzzword. But I use it for simplicities sake. I live in a rural area and get my produce from a local family farm. They happen to themselves be "semi-vegetarian" (self described). They have chickens, and eat the eggs. And chickens don't live forever, so while the chickens aren't slaughtered for meat, they do eat the chickens when they die. Including the roosters; which is generally not eaten (much tougher and blander meat, I'm told). But, point being, it's fresh in-season kale, spinach, and other great fruits and veggies. Though in the winter months I buy the 'flown in' stuff. They can, and eat the canned stuff. It's actually pretty common out here.

I get flack once in a while around here for living in a rural area. We're all supposed to snort smog together in some urban area to reduce our travel times, I get it. But the folks out here pretty much still do live like the 50's and 60's. Far fewer are obese than in the city an hour away. There are only a couple restaurants, which happen to both be owned by farmers who serve their own grown and raised foods. (But it is country cookin', which means they fry it all. Everything. Even the vegetables.), most cook the bulk of their meals at home, many grow their own food. Even if they don't farm, they garden. Then they can what they don't eat and that lasts through the winter.

The confirmation bias is strong in this thread though. Tossing out studies that affirm our pre-conceived notions, with little, if any, willingness to open our minds to the other side. For vegans, eating meat is always a totally immoral and selfish act with no redeeming qualities. I'm enjoying listening to people tell other people WHY they eat meat, though not really asking them why, simply TELLING them why, because it must be one of their preset ideas. And, likewise, B.S. science from the meat crowd trying to affirm their pre-conceived notion (taught to them by marketing folks; like the old 'Got Milk' ads that told us that milk is essential. It really isn't. There are better sources of protein and calcium) that veganism and vegetarianism are unhealthy and require you to 'miss out' in key nutrients, which is equally true. You need amino acids (protein), and there's no amino acid you can get from meat you can't get from plants. A diet of nothing but celery and lettuce is probably unhealthy and missing out on essentials, (as would be a diet in nothing but ground hamburger), but a varied diet contains all the nutrients needed.

Also; I have to jump on this one, what's up with the B.S. "People only eat meat because it's manly" line? So this is apparently news so 'll try to break it to you gently but, women eat meat too.

Originally Posted by dim

I'm a landscaper/ gardener....

at home, I grow my own veg (non gmo) ... no pesticides except for snail bait, and I grow using high brix methods (nutrient dense)

veg that I cannot grow out of season, and have to buy is normally organic ... same for things like bananas etc .... organic all the way

I'm not vegan, but I will be going on a health kick from the 2nd of Jan, and will include loads of fresh veg and fruit and will get a Nutribullet juicer thingy .... you have to add a bit of water to the mix, and I will use bottled water

as for fish, Fukushima is still spewing radiation, and I have stopped eating fish (especially fish such as Tuna) ... I used to eat fresh fish at least twice a week

used to drink green tea, but have stopped that aswell, due to Fukushima .... I still enjoy meat and chicken, but will cut down on that and only buy organic if and when I can afford to (same for eggs)

maybe I'm paranoid, but thats just me

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy

I see a number of people on this thread attempting to conflate the vegan fad diet with the low-fat fad diet, even though there's no philosophical or physical link conjoining these two diets. One of my favorite afternoon snacks is a jigger of olive oil, followed by an ounce of nuts, usually walnuts. While dietary authorities recommend limiting dietary saturated fat to less than 7%, there is such recommendation for total dietary fat. In fact,If you look around at dietary recommendations for endurance athletes (which hopefully is the set of people reading this), while there are many studies and recommendations for a high fat diet, there are no recommendations for endurance athletes to eat less than 10% fat. Most recommendations run from 20%-30% fat, which is easily attained with a vegan diet. Just wanting to make that clear.

Here is a good article discussing dietary fat for the endurance athlete:
Fats in the Endurance World | Ultrarunning Magazine
Note for the vegan:

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

Some (like the Esselstyn version) even eliminate high fat foods like avocados and nuts.

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

By the way: None of those who advocate a Whole Food Plant Based diet believe that Olive Oil is anything but fattening. They believe that Olive Oil got its reputation as a healthy food simply because of its association with the Mediterranean Diet. Further, they believe that the Mediterranean Diet is healthy NOT because it usually includes Olive Oil but because it is high in Whole Plant Foods rather than meat and dairy...

Originally Posted by wolfchild

Complete fanaticism.



If you're denying health benefits of organic virgin olive oil and if you're denying the health benefits of Mediterranean diet then you're denying facts and science.

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

But comparing any food to those monsters sets the bar pretty low. Actually, olive oil is a refined, processed food stripped of its normal nutrients just as sugar is -- and both will make you fat instead of healthy.

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

But I have to laugh! Now you are defending the Mediterranean Diet?
... You must feel really threatened by a healthy diet if you are resorting that!

Originally Posted by SHBR

Humans are quite adaptable when it comes to food sources. There is an extreme amount of zealotry on both sides of the meat vs. veg debate. Most of us reside somewhere in the middle. This is classic social engineering, the us vs. them mentality that is very prevalent in modern society. I think it should also be noted that most of the 3 letter agencies in the US, and now in other countries are often a revolving door between large corporations and government. Corporatocracy is the order of the day. Profit trumps health, much to the detriment of all life on this planet.

Originally Posted by wolfchild

Please educate yourself...There is a huge big difference between virgin organic cold-pressed olive oil and refined olive oil, and you are confusing the two and making them look the same, when in fact they are totally different products.



I never had a problem or condemned a Traditional Mediterranean Diet, even if I don't follow it 100% myself...Mediterranean Diet has been in practice for thousands of years and has been proven to be healthy and sustain entire civilizations and cultures...What I always had a problem with is "vegan fad diets" and I will continue to be critical about any "fad diet" which is based on emotion and ideology and which excludes and forbids eating foods which haven't been proven to be harmful.

Originally Posted by SHBR

Humans are quite adaptable when it comes to food sources. There is an extreme amount of zealotry on both sides of the meat vs. veg debate. Most of us reside somewhere in the middle. This is classic social engineering, the us vs. them mentality that is very prevalent in modern society. I think it should also be noted that most of the 3 letter agencies in the US, and now in other countries are often a revolving door between large corporations and government. Corporatocracy is the order of the day. Profit trumps health, much to the detriment of all life on this planet.

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

Oh! So you're starting to back peddle now from your ideologic opinions about healthy diets?

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

And yes, ALL olive oil is processed -- meaning a process is used to strip out a single portion of a whole food and discard the rest. What that process is matters little. Neither does it matter whether is stripping the fat from an olive or simple carbs from wheat. It is still processed foods.

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

Your comparison of a vegan diet to a low-fat diet is all true...
But mine and most of the posts in this thread refer to a third type of diet: "Whole Food Plant Based" diets
<snip>
As for suggesting that an endurance athlete "needs" more fat than any other person: I am not aware of any valid evidence to that effect. However, 30-40% is the amount in the Standard American Diet -- so that is often used as the "normal". In addition, I would certainly hope that no non-professional "endurance athlete" would sacrifice his health for his sport.

Originally Posted by wolfchild

Nope, I am not back peddeling on anything... I stand by what I said. I believe that any balanced healthy diet should also include some form of animal products.



You're splitting hairs....All food is processed to some degree. Every time you boil or bake or fry or cook something you're processing it...Many plant foods are inedible and impossible to eat without processing them first... All legumes and grains need to be processed before they can be eaten safely, and majority of root vegetables also need cooking to make them edible... In fact, processing is what unlocks a lot of nutrients in foods and makes a lot of foods more nutritious. Food processing started thousands of years ago and it's here to stay.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy

I'm still waiting for you to produce any evidence that eating a diet with greater than 10% fat would damage the health of an endurance athlete. 20%-35% calories from fat is the usual recommended range.

Again, we also await your evidence showing a relationship between CHD and total fat intake, as opposed to showing a relationship between CHD and the intake of particular dietary fats.

You are not aware that endurance athletes need more than 10% fat in their diet because you don't know much about eating for endurance athletes. Here is a primer on the subject:
https://www.jblearning.com/samples/07..._Nutrition.pdf

Anthropologists say, "cooking made us human," because cooking unlocked so many more nutrients that it freed up huge amounts of time for activities other than food acquisition.

For the vegans who may still be reading this thread, one of my favorite afternoon snacks is a jigger of virgin olive oil, followed by an ounce of nuts, usually walnuts. Good fats are good for you.

Originally Posted by wolfchild

Nope, I am not back peddeling on anything... I stand by what I said. I believe that any balanced healthy diet should also include some form of animal products.

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

I have referred you to a source of over 3,000 references to the evidence you claim does not exist -- which you have ignored. Well, I guess it doesn't exist -- if you don't look! That's the old: "If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it..."

And, I will point out again that I and most of the poster's on this thread are not talking about "Vegan Diets" or "Low Fat Diets". We are talking about Whole Food Plant Based Diets that are quite different in many ways. Yes, there CAN be similarities, but that is no reason to confuse them -- or trash a Whole Food Plant Based diet because of deficiencies in those other diets. Your confusion on the topic seems to be mostly related to defending your own diet rather than discussing a Whole Food Plant Based Diet.

And, as for your 'evidence' about endurance athletes requiring more fat than non-athletes, your evidence seems to disprove your assumption. I quote from it:

"Because the body relies on fats for energy and the energy requirements for endurance athletes are high, one might be foolishly misled into thinking that fat intake should be of prime importance in the diet of endurance athletes."

The truth remain that: the main source of energy for both the body and the brain is carbs, not fat or protein (although, in need, the body can adapt to use all three).

Further:
"The main difference between the diets of endurance athletes and those of athletes in other sports is in the quantity of food consumed, not necessarily the macronutrient composition of the diet. ... carbohydrates play a key role in the endurance athlete’s diet. Similar to other athletes with high calorie needs, dietary fats are valuable for providing extra calories in a small volume of food"

So apparently, endurance athletes need mostly more calories rather than some special or specific mix of nutrients unique to them -- and fat is mostly just a quick and easy way to get calories -- but carbs remain the primary nutrient...

So, with no substantive differences, we get back to the topic of health and which diet maximizes health and minimizes diseases... And, by minimizing disease I am not limiting it to heart health (as you seem to be) but also: cancer, diabetes, fatty liver disease, dementia and, even food poisoning from fecal bacteria...

But, I am not going to get into the 'battle of the studies debate' with you so that you can defend your diet -- especially since you won't look at the evidence I have already pointed you to... I am more interested in the topic of this thread: Vegan and Whole Food Plan Based diets.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy

You practice the Gish Gallop. "Look at the evidence???? You have presented zero evidence, just your assertions which become fuzzier and fuzzier until it's impossible to tell what it is that you are asserting, other than that eating plants is good, with which no one disagrees. Have you switched tunes from "the lower the fat the better," to "the more plants the better, who cares about fat"?

If you assert other things beyond that "eating plants is good," let's have the specifics. Number time, please.The topic is "Vegans." You have done your best to muddy that topic.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to post links to studies which might give substance to your assertions, as I requested in post 239: there aren't any. Go ahead, ignore science, it's typical of the genre.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy

I might point out that the Mediterranean Diet is a Whole Foods Plant Based Diet (GBM's idea to use caps )Mediterranean diet for heart health - Mayo Clinic
...
.

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

I think you are losing it...
You're conceptions and assumptions about diet have been challenged and you feel threatened -- so you respond with insults...

No evidence? I offered you evidence with over 3,000 references to studies that back it up.
... Your response was to refuse to look at it -- and then say I provided no evidence!

You provide a study that you say proves your contention that endurance athletes must eat high fat -- yet, the study itself says quite the opposite. Your response? None.

I am disappointed in you. You claim to base your training on scientific evidence. But it is becoming apparent that you base it only on that scientific evidence that supports your ideas and assumptions of what a diet should be.

But, the hilarious part is: You have demonstrated a number of times that you do not know what a Whole Food Plant Based diet is -- the only thing you know is that you do not like it.

You should educate yourself before speaking next time.

But, in any case, I will not engage in a "War of Studies" with you. If you refuse to educate yourself, it is not my job to do it for you.

And, if Whole Food Plant Based Diets threaten you and upset you so much, then don't read the thread -- or get yourself a prescription for some Klonopin...

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac

The Mediterranean Diet IS a Whole Food Plant Based diet? WRONG!
Again, you demonstrate that you don't know what a Whole Food Plant Based diet is -- but, whatever it is, you don't like it!

But, despite you lack of knowledge, your attempt to trash this thread is working well!

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy;18410276/

.............The 5 Cleanest Sources of Plant-Based Fats | One Green Planet