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Old 12-12-15, 04:51 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
If you relying on supplements for your B12 then you're doing it wrong... B12 is supposed to come from the food you eat and not from pills.
Wrong,
B12 is B12... It works either way....
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Old 12-12-15, 05:01 AM
  #127  
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[QUOTE=Carbonfiberboy;18383646].
...
Both Ornish and Esselstyn monitored their vegan subjects very closely. That's obviously a good idea. I think if I had been monitored weekly by a specialist when I tried going vary low-fat, the various things that were going sideways for me might have been caught and remedies found.

....

I noticed that Esselstyn did not report monitoring his subjects cholesterol/HDL nor triglycerides/HDL ratios. Many researchers believe these ratios to be more indicative of heart health than total cholesterol. So I wonder what observational studies conclude has the greater effect on preventing CHD.
...
QUOTE]

Oh! So you were following a "low-fat" diet rather than the Ornish reversal diet or the Esseslstyn diet?
... That explains your failure... Either you were following a different protocol or you do not understand those diets and their underlying basis...

And yes, Esselstyn DID monitor his subject's "cholesterol/HDL nor triglycerides/HDL ratios". Every two weeks in fact.
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Old 12-12-15, 05:12 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by mgwilder View Post
https://www.nutritionalresearch.org/research




Articles & Studies | Dr. Esselstyn's Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease Program




I'm always interested in research, but a) I take them with a grain of salt and b) we are all individuals and what works for one group may not work for another. All I know is that it's working for me. As someone who is a quintuple bypass candidate with 2 arteries completely blocked, a WFPB diet (Dr. Fuhrman) with Ornish's protocol for stress reduction (Yes, I am a graduate of Spectrum) I am making strides in reducing my plaque burden.


I don't recommend this to people because what works for me might not necessarily work for you. I do suggest people become more mindful about what they consume and the effect it has on their well being. I'm glad that you have found what works for you. A healthy person is a happy person. I know that my body cannot process the cholesterol that it produces, let alone from dietary sources, that is why I am still on statins in spite of the dietary restrictions I am on. My most recent labs show that my lipid panel is at birth level and the rest of my numbers are spot on, so I must be doing something correct.
Congrats on your success!
... You obviously worked hard and it has paid off...

The reversal of your plaque is impressive.
And, by the way, I recently read a study that said that a zero percent plaque level provided a 15 year guarantee against heart attack! I don't know if it's true, but I like to think it is. I last had a coronary calcium scan about 20 years ago and it also showed zero percent. But, unfortunately, it looks like my warranty is up -- so I follow the Esselstyn/McDougal type diets...

But I disagree that these diets are 'not for everyone'. If everyone did follow them we would save trillions per year in health care costs treating the chronic diseases caused by the Standard American Diet. I'm not sure how long we can afford to keep paying the bills for those dietary diseases.
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Old 12-12-15, 05:45 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by Hermes1 View Post
The truth is, one can get as much if not more protein from other sources besides meat. B-12 is not a problem either as there are plenty of very good B-12 supplements. I am sure this guy Brendan Brazier, vegan triathlete | Great Vegan Athletes is not suffering from lack of protein.
Yes, I verified that personally...
When I switched to an Whole Food Plant Based diet, not only did I have to overcome a lifetime of being told I had to eat meat and/or dairy to get enough protein but my nutrionist was very skeptical as well. (However, my wellness physician who works alongside Dr Esselstyn assured me that as long as I took in enough calories that I would also be taking in enough protein).

So, I tracked it myself for over a year along with about 20 other vitamins, minerals and nutrients. And, Yes! My protein intake was well within the standard guidelines for protein whether it was measured as a percent of calories or in grams per kilogram.

The belief that you have to eat meat to get adequate protein is just as much myth as you have to drink milk to get enough calcium.
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Old 12-12-15, 07:06 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
Wrong,
B12 is B12... It works either way....
The point I am trying to make is that a "whole foods diet" should contain all the necessary nutrients which your body needs to function at optimal levels, without having to rely on many different supplements...If you relying heavily of supplements then you're not really following a "whole foods diet"....Any diet trend which relies on supplements to make up for nutritional deficiencies is not really a " whole foods diet".
Taking a lot of supplements means that your diet is unbalanced and deficient in certain important nutrients.
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Old 12-12-15, 07:12 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post

So, I tracked it myself for over a year along with about 20 other vitamins, minerals and nutrients. And, Yes! My protein intake was well within the standard guidelines for protein whether it was measured as a percent of calories or in grams per kilogram.
Which standard guidelines are you talking about ??.
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Old 12-12-15, 07:22 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by DosWheelsBtr View Post
....
Been a Vegan for 6 years ..... the fact that the lifestyle saves lives and fights climate change, I believe more should adopt the lifestyle.
The Hero syndrome.

You're not saving lives, or effecting how much heat is produced by the Sun (Sun radiation varies). If friends, family, and loved ones think/say you're too skinny.... you likely have an eating disorder. Eating disorders are common and can be treated.

I wish you the best of luck.
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Old 12-12-15, 09:23 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
If you relying on supplements for your B12 then you're doing it wrong... B12 is supposed to come from the food you eat and not from pills.
B12 is found in sufficient quantity in meat and as such B12 supplement is pretty much required for vegans and is the only supplement I take.
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Old 12-12-15, 09:36 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post

Oh! So you were following a "low-fat" diet rather than the Ornish reversal diet or the Esseslstyn diet?
... That explains your failure... Either you were following a different protocol or you do not understand those diets and their underlying basis...

And yes, Esselstyn DID monitor his subject's "cholesterol/HDL nor triglycerides/HDL ratios". Every two weeks in fact.
I explained that rather carefully in my posts 104 & 108. I followed Ornish's diet and recipes from his book. I was working long hours and it was a total PITA.

The portion of the Esselstyn study that's available online doesn't mention following HDL or other ratios. If I can't read it, as you point out, it doesn't exist for me. His paper says:
The only goal was to achieve and maintain a total serum cholesterol of 150 mg/dl.
I note again that he used statins to achieve this goal. IIRC you're an anti-statin person.

In another of his papers

https://www.dresselstyn.com/Esselstyn...-July-2014.pdf he says:
First, the blood level of HDL cholesterol has no relationship with its capacity to perform reverse cholesterol transport (16). Second, eating the typical Western diet may oxidatively injure apolipoprotein-A1(apo-A1) which is the major protein of the HDL molecule. Oxidized apo-A1 renders HDL incapable of antiinflammatoryfunctions converting it to a pro-inflammatory agent joining with LDL to promote injury (17).
If you read the studies referenced, you'd see that he is misrepresenting their conclusions.

Thus it appears that he is uninterested in HDL levels in spite of the strong correlation with low rates of CHD shown in observational studies. That makes me curious about HDL rations in his subjects.
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Old 12-12-15, 02:10 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post


But I disagree that these diets are 'not for everyone'. If everyone did follow them we would save trillions per year in health care costs treating the chronic diseases caused by the Standard American Diet. I'm not sure how long we can afford to keep paying the bills for those dietary diseases.
Do you know which country has the highest rates of diabetes ??...It's INDIA. A country well known for having majority of it's population eating whole food plant based diets with very little animal products. People in India eat more rice, lentils, beans, legumes and grains then any American ever will and yet all those healthy whole plant foods do nothing to prevent or eliminate high rates of diabetes in that country. Yes I agree that SAD diet is bad but it seems that " extreme diets" with very heavy emphasis on plants and no animal foods are just as bad.
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Old 12-12-15, 02:21 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
The Hero syndrome.

You're not saving lives, or effecting how much heat is produced by the Sun (Sun radiation varies). If friends, family, and loved ones think/say you're too skinny.... you likely have an eating disorder. Eating disorders are common and can be treated.

I wish you the best of luck.
My BMI is 20, so I am thinner than most, but you have to remember we as Americans are used to looking at people that are carrying quite a bit extra, and many are obese. But the beauty of being a vegan is that you can eat.
I weigh 136 lbs yet I intake 2500+ calories of whole foods daily, which on days I don't ride (4) in a given week, is more than I need. I don't have a problem eating and in fact out eat anyone I know and my weight has stayed constant 1 year before I started cycling.
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Old 12-12-15, 02:24 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Do you know which country has the highest rates of diabetes ??...It's INDIA. A country well known for having majority of it's population eating whole food plant based diets with very little animal products. People in India eat more rice, lentils, beans, legumes and grains then any American ever will and yet all those healthy whole plant foods do nothing to prevent or eliminate high rates of diabetes in that country. Yes I agree that SAD diet is bad but it seems that " extreme diets" with very heavy emphasis on plants and no animal foods are just as bad.

Wrong!

Prevalence of Diabetes in the World, 2013 | Health Intelligence
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Old 12-12-15, 02:30 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Do you know which country has the highest rates of diabetes ??...It's INDIA. A country well known for having majority of it's population eating whole food plant based diets with very little animal products. People in India eat more rice, lentils, beans, legumes and grains then any American ever will and yet all those healthy whole plant foods do nothing to prevent or eliminate high rates of diabetes in that country. Yes I agree that SAD diet is bad but it seems that " extreme diets" with very heavy emphasis on plants and no animal foods are just as bad.
Here's another example.
When I was eating a balanced diet, fruits, veggies, meat (all kinds) and dairy, my glucose was 87 and my A1C was 5.0
One year vegan and my glucose was 78 and my A1C was 4.5

It is well documented that the fat in meat and dairy are the cause of high blood sugar, among other problems.

Keep preaching the pitfalls of being vegan to people that are and see where it gets you. No
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Old 12-12-15, 02:36 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Do you know which country has the highest rates of diabetes ??...It's INDIA. A country well known for having majority of it's population eating whole food plant based diets with very little animal products. People in India eat more rice, lentils, beans, legumes and grains then any American ever will and yet all those healthy whole plant foods do nothing to prevent or eliminate high rates of diabetes in that country. Yes I agree that SAD diet is bad but it seems that " extreme diets" with very heavy emphasis on plants and no animal foods are just as bad.
This list:
Countries ranked by Diabetes prevalence (% of population ages 20 to 79)
has the US 57th and India 63rd.

Still, 57th place is hella good. Not the placing that one would assume from reading the ranting against the US diet on the forum.

This whole list is like hilarious. Saudis are at #2 , 23.9% diabetic. We're 9.39%. The UK, well known to have the worst food in the world, are at 3.9%. National Health Care, anyone? This list may vary more by health care system than by diet. Look where the pig-eating European countries are: Germany 7.93%, Czech Republic 6.59%. How about the world's greatest beer consumption country, Australia? 4.08%! Mutton and beer diet anyone?

As I quoted that researcher earlier, no one can prove doodly-squat about the relationship of diet to health.
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Old 12-12-15, 03:10 PM
  #140  
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To add to the hilarity, here's a graph of countries, with sugar per capita on the Y axis and fat on the x axis:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...sugar-and-fat/

The US and India, with almost identical diabetes rates, are in opposite corners of this graph.

I also looked at health care system rankings. Better correlation there than by diet, but still not great.

Obesity rates have a decent correlation with diabetes rates, though again, not great:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2228rank.html
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Old 12-12-15, 03:20 PM
  #141  
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Here you go: The current state of diabetes mellitus in India
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Old 12-12-15, 03:38 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
According to this list it looks like Middle eastern/South Asian countries and Caribbean are the highest.
The diet staples in Middle east are bread/grains and sweets. Mostly vegan diet consisting of carbs and sugar.
Diet staples in Caribbean are rice and legumes, sweet tropical fruits, starchy sweet root vegetables and sugar cane. Mostly vegan diet consisting of carbs and sweets.
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Old 12-12-15, 03:50 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
That's the highest absolute number of diabetics not the highest rate of diabetes.
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Old 12-12-15, 04:24 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
According to this list it looks like Middle eastern/South Asian countries and Caribbean are the highest.
The diet staples in Middle east are bread/grains and sweets. Mostly vegan diet consisting of carbs and sugar.
Diet staples in Caribbean are rice and legumes, sweet tropical fruits, starchy sweet root vegetables and sugar cane. Mostly vegan diet consisting of carbs and sweets.
Not a good correlation with sugar, see post 140.
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Old 12-12-15, 04:40 PM
  #145  
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The use of added sugar is different than the sugar in fruit. Fruit has fiber and water so its a whole food. Half the sugar in fruit is fructose (not high fructose corn syrup) and needs no insulin to be injected into the cells. The other sugars are regulated by the fiber. I average 500 grams of carbs a day, and my sugar is 200 + grams, but yet my blood sugar went down. Splain that Lucy...
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Old 12-12-15, 05:34 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Not a good correlation with sugar, see post 140.
If it's not high sugar intake. What is it then ??... What makes some people in certain countries more vulnerable to developing obesity and diabetes then people in other countries ??...Genetic ??.. Lack of exercise??.. Adoption of western food pyramid and lifestyle ??...Obesity and diabetes was almost
non-existent before industrial revolution when food production was a lot less advanced.

Humans used fat as food for thousands of years without any problems. Refined sugar was non-existent. Large scale sugar production only started around the time of industrial revolution. Sweet foods such as fruits were extremely limited back in the old days and used only seasonally. It's interesting to note that middle-eastern countries and tropical countries with high rates of diabetes and obesity also have an abundance of very sweet fruits such as dates, figs and other sweet sugary fruits.
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Old 12-12-15, 07:28 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Harvieu25 View Post
My BMI is 20, so I am thinner than most,.......
Well within the normal range.
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Old 12-12-15, 08:32 PM
  #148  
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Your in a Vegan thread trying to preach about how bad veganism is, you should try another topic. Veganism is not only here to stay but is growing each day. Do some research, then come on in, the water is JUST right....
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Old 12-12-15, 09:28 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Do you know which country has the highest rates of diabetes ??...It's INDIA. A country well known for having majority of it's population eating whole food plant based diets with very little animal products....
Very little animal products??? Ever hear of ghee? Practically everything in India is dripping with ghee - which is most certainly an animal product.

Your attempted co relation of diabetes and a vegan diet is a fantasy.

"Sugar and sweet consumption have been popular and intrinsic to Indian culture, traditions, and religion from ancient times. In this article, we review the data showing increasing sugar consumption in India, including traditional sources (jaggery and khandsari) and from sugar-sweetened beverages (SSBs). Along with decreasing physical activity, this increasing trend of per capita sugar consumption assumes significance in view of the high tendency for Indians to develop insulin resistance, abdominal adiposity, and hepatic steatosis, and the increasing “epidemic” of type 2 diabetes (T2DM) and cardiovascular diseases.Sugar and sweet consumption have been popular and intrinsic to Indian culture, traditions, and religion from ancient times. In this article, we review the data showing increasing sugar consumption in India, including traditional sources (jaggery and khandsari) and from sugar-sweetened beverages (SSBs). Along with decreasing physical activity, this increasing trend of per capita sugar consumption assumes significance in view of the high tendency for Indians to develop insulin resistance, abdominal adiposity, and hepatic steatosis, and the increasing “epidemic” of type 2 diabetes (T2DM) and cardiovascular diseases...."

Sugar Intake, Obesity, and Diabetes in India
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Old 12-12-15, 10:01 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
If it's not high sugar intake. What is it then ??... What makes some people in certain countries more vulnerable to developing obesity and diabetes then people in other countries ??...Genetic ??.. Lack of exercise??.. Adoption of western food pyramid and lifestyle ??...Obesity and diabetes was almost
non-existent before industrial revolution when food production was a lot less advanced.

Humans used fat as food for thousands of years without any problems. Refined sugar was non-existent. Large scale sugar production only started around the time of industrial revolution. Sweet foods such as fruits were extremely limited back in the old days and used only seasonally. It's interesting to note that middle-eastern countries and tropical countries with high rates of diabetes and obesity also have an abundance of very sweet fruits such as dates, figs and other sweet sugary fruits.
Don't you notice that most folks who post on this forum are successful with their food choices? Everyone, no matter the diet, reports improved lipids and various other signs of good health. I find this variance fascinating. What do these folks have in common? From my WP link in post 140:
One possibility is that it's not the raw amount of fat or sugar content alone that matters, it's also the type of food that's being eaten. In the United States, processed foods are still wildly popular, a fact that could offer one more theory of how this country came to have an obesity rate above 35 percent.
This theory does answer your assertion about the industrial revolution. It became too easy to eat too much of whatever with the micronutrients stripped out. Fruit juice. Not-fruit-juice. Industrial meat. Cheap fats composed of unhealthy fatty acids. Etc.

These questions are what interests me. What we don't know. Maybe the true value of a natural foods vegan diet is simply that it's a PITA compared with the SAD. Closer to the soil and more time spent = fewer calories, more micronutrients. Even better, go into the forest and harvest your aboriginal local foods.
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