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Old 12-13-15, 02:03 AM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
The Hero syndrome.

You're not saving lives, or effecting how much heat is produced by the Sun (Sun radiation varies). If friends, family, and loved ones think/say you're too skinny.... you likely have an eating disorder. Eating disorders are common and can be treated.

I wish you the best of luck.
Wrong on all counts...
Whole Food Plant Based diets are the only ones proven to prevent and often reverse most of the chronic diseases driving the western world into bankruptcy while it pays to treat them -- but it also reduces green house gasses because the livestock industry is the largest producer of green house gasses (even greater than the transportation industry).
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Old 12-13-15, 02:09 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
The point I am trying to make is that a "whole foods diet" should contain all the necessary nutrients which your body needs to function at optimal levels, without having to rely on many different supplements...If you relying heavily of supplements then you're not really following a "whole foods diet"....Any diet trend which relies on supplements to make up for nutritional deficiencies is not really a " whole foods diet".
Taking a lot of supplements means that your diet is unbalanced and deficient in certain important nutrients.
That is true only if the purpose of your diet is to fulfill an ideology rather than promote health and well being.
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Old 12-13-15, 02:42 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I explained that rather carefully in my posts 104 & 108. I followed Ornish's diet and recipes from his book. I was working long hours and it was a total PITA.

The portion of the Esselstyn study that's available online doesn't mention following HDL or other ratios. If I can't read it, as you point out, it doesn't exist for me. His paper says:

I note again that he used statins to achieve this goal. IIRC you're an anti-statin person.

In another of his papers

https://www.dresselstyn.com/Esselstyn...-July-2014.pdf he says:If you read the studies referenced, you'd see that he is misrepresenting their conclusions.

Thus it appears that he is uninterested in HDL levels in spite of the strong correlation with low rates of CHD shown in observational studies. That makes me curious about HDL rations in his subjects.
Sorry, calling a Whole Food Plant Based diet a "low fat" diet is like calling Katrina a rain storm. Yes, Katrina was a storm and it did rain. Likewise, one component of a Whole Food Plant Based diet is (generally) low-fat. Nobody who understands what a Whole Food Plant Based diet is would make that error. However, most proponents of Whole Food Plant Based diets only suggest limiting high fat whole plant foods because, well, they make you fat -- not because they violate the diet.

As McDougal points out: when he was a child his father bought a 5 pound bag of nuts in shells once a year and they spent days & weeks cracking them open and eating them. Today people grab handfuls of nuts poured from a jar throughout the day. It's not that they are a violation of his diet -- but they make you fat. (Esselstyn though is much more strict about high fat foods).

And, I suggested a source of information (Greger's book: "How Not To Die") on the health benefits of Whole Food Plant Based Diets backed with references to over 3,000 studies proving their efficacy. You can choose to ignore the evidence -- your choice -- but you cannot claim the "it doesn't exist".

And yes, you are correct that Esselstyn used statins to bring some of his patients down to his goal of total cholesterol of 150. So what? His goal was to promote health -- not prove an ideology as you seem to believe... And you are correct that I do not like statins. But if a person needs to take them, then they need to take them -- but first you need to exhaust all other possibilities... As for Esselstyn's total cholesterol goal of 150 -- I think that may be ambitious in light of recent revelations about the side effects of statins. (When he made that goal, statins were generally thought to very safe with only rare side effects).

I am not aware of any misrepresentations that Esselstyn has made.

But you are correct that he is less concerned about raising HDL than lowering total and LDL cholesterols. And that makes sense: the benefit of HDL is in cleaning out excess LDL from the arteries. As recent niacin trials have shown (when niacin was added to a statin), when LDL is already low, raising HDL produces little or no benefit. Esselstyn was ahead of his time on that one too.
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Old 12-13-15, 03:00 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
...
...
As I quoted that researcher earlier, no one can prove doodly-squat about the relationship of diet to health.
You can ignore evidence. But that does not mean it does not exist.

But, that has been a favored tactic of industry: first the tobacco industry and now the livestock, dairy and processed foods industries have worked to muddy the waters and confuse the public with conflicting "studies" produced by researchers paid to produce results favorable to their industry...

But slowly, the wall of ignorance and misperception they have built around their products is beginning to crack... The WHO report last month showing red meats and processed meats are probably carcinogens has already been forgotten by most -- but it was one more shock to the system. The evidence against meat and dairy continues to mount -- as does the evidence for a Whole Food Plant Based diet.
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Old 12-13-15, 03:04 AM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
According to this list it looks like Middle eastern/South Asian countries and Caribbean are the highest.
The diet staples in Middle east are bread/grains and sweets. Mostly vegan diet consisting of carbs and sugar.
Diet staples in Caribbean are rice and legumes, sweet tropical fruits, starchy sweet root vegetables and sugar cane. Mostly vegan diet consisting of carbs and sweets.
You forgot to mention McDonald's and CocaCola... As the western diet spreads, traditional healthy diets are displaced.

Even in the Blue Zones, research is hindered by modern western diets taking over. Okinawa used to have the longest lived, healthiest people living on a diet based on sweet potatoes and other vegetables -- now, with the American military base there, they are becoming just as fat and sick as we are...

Last edited by GeorgeBMac; 12-13-15 at 03:07 AM.
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Old 12-13-15, 03:39 AM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by Harvieu25 View Post
The use of added sugar is different than the sugar in fruit. Fruit has fiber and water so its a whole food. Half the sugar in fruit is fructose (not high fructose corn syrup) and needs no insulin to be injected into the cells. The other sugars are regulated by the fiber. I average 500 grams of carbs a day, and my sugar is 200 + grams, but yet my blood sugar went down. Splain that Lucy...
Yes, but in addition: most fruits contain high levels anti-oxidents which reduces oxidation (which is a factor in systemic inflammation and probably atherosclerosis) caused by free radicals. I am thinking that that will become a whole new area of research as we progress away from the focus on cholesterol. (Not that the cholesterol story is wrong -- just that it is incomplete).

Actually, I suspect that reduced inflammation may be the underlying reason for the extremely quick (within days and weeks) and dramatic benefits some people receive when they convert to a whole food plant based diet: reduced inflammation opens up cardiac arteries and produces dramatic decreases in angina enabling them to do things that were inconceivable on their Standard American Diet... (Stories of people who could not walk across the street now climbing mountains -- or Esselstyn's dramatic before and after images of cardiac arteries opening up)

I believe that the coming years will reveal the major impact both gut microbiome as well as oxidation and inflammation have on health and chronic diseases... (and, of course, both are favorably impacted by a Whole Food Plant Based Diet).
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Old 12-13-15, 07:07 AM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
Okinawa used to have the longest lived, healthiest people living on a diet based on sweet potatoes and other vegetables -- now, with the American military base there, they are becoming just as fat and sick as we are...
It's a lot more then just sweet potatoes and veggies...Pork was also a big part of traditional Okinawan diet. Pork is very highly regarded and very popular amongst many Oriental and Asian cultures...The long life of Okinawans may also be due to eating smaller portions and more calorie restrictions. It's a fact that Okinawan diet is a lot lower in total calories then other diets, and it's also very low in sugar and grains, white rice is the only grain that is eaten regularly.
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Old 12-13-15, 07:25 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
The Hero syndrome.

You're not saving lives, or effecting how much heat is produced by the Sun (Sun radiation varies). If friends, family, and loved ones think/say you're too skinny.... you likely have an eating disorder. Eating disorders are common and can be treated.

I wish you the best of luck.
Try harder.

I have a BMI of 22. People think I am too thin, go figure. Go vegan.
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Old 12-13-15, 07:31 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
It's a lot more then just sweet potatoes and veggies...Pork was also a big part of traditional Okinawan diet. Pork is very highly regarded and very popular amongst many Oriental and Asian cultures...The long life of Okinawans may also be due to eating smaller portions and more calorie restrictions. It's a fact that Okinawan diet is a lot lower in total calories then other diets, and it's also very low in sugar and grains, white rice is the only grain that is eaten regularly.
Fish was their biggest meat source and it was less than 1%, if I remember correctly, of their total diet. Most asian countries used meat as a flavoring and not the main course as the western world does. I state, "used", as most now adhere to the mcdonalds diet and has thus propagated a very serious issue of obesity and heart disease. Ie, they eat more like the western world as of late. I am not sure if it was low in grains for rice is a grain. I am neither sure of calorie restricting.
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Old 12-13-15, 10:40 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
Wrong on all counts...
Whole Food Plant Based diets are the only ones proven to prevent and often reverse most of the chronic diseases driving the western world into bankruptcy while it pays to treat them -- but it also reduces green house gasses because the livestock industry is the largest producer of green house gasses (even greater than the transportation industry).
So.... by being a practicing vegan..... you see yourself as heroically helping to save the world. And that's all I posted basically. Everyone likes to feel good about their own behavior and actions. And what child hasn't tied an old baby blanket, towel, or tablecloth around his/her neck and pretended to be... well super. Good times.

But we all grow-up. I could not care less if people eat meat or not. I don't even mind the smugness. But I've seen a loved one suffer from an eating disorder... and it is heart wrenching. I know what I posted won't break-though or help anyone. And I won't persist.

Last edited by Dave Cutter; 12-13-15 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 12-13-15, 10:57 AM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by DosWheelsBtr View Post
Try harder.
? What am I trying? People can't be "talked out" of a compulsion or addiction. Eating disorders are about as common as drinking or gambling problems. And... I ain't got your cure. But others can help. And if all that ails you is a little excessive smugness... who cares. We all have our flaws.

Originally Posted by DosWheelsBtr View Post
I have a BMI of 22. People think I am too thin, go figure. Go vegan.
A BMI of 22 is well within normal. Does having a normal BMI imply something about the phenomenon affecting people who seek heroism or recognition? I think you may have missed my point. I have no problem with meatless dinning!

But if people who care about you tell you, that you are too thin.... you most likely are. If your eating rituals are more important to you... or too compelling to alter... than your loved ones opinions of your health... you have a problem.
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Old 12-13-15, 01:44 PM
  #162  
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My BMI floats between high 19 and low 20. Everyone in my family tells me I'm too thin. These are ALL people who are dangerously overweight and have that sickly puffiness. Absolutely none of them are physicians. The day one of my Dr's tells me I'm underweight I'll take it under consideration. Until then, I will ignore my relatives.
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Old 12-13-15, 01:47 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by mgwilder View Post
my bmi floats between high 19 and low 20. Everyone in my family tells me i'm too thin. These are all people who are dangerously overweight and have that sickly puffiness. Absolutely none of them are physicians. The day one of my dr's tells me i'm underweight i'll take it under consideration. Until then, i will ignore my relatives.
boom! +1
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Old 12-13-15, 02:22 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by mgwilder View Post
My BMI floats between high 19 and low 20. Everyone in my family tells me I'm too thin. These are ALL people who are dangerously overweight and have that sickly puffiness. Absolutely none of them are physicians. The day one of my Dr's tells me I'm underweight I'll take it under consideration. Until then, I will ignore my relatives.
My BMI is 21.8 and my abs are showing, I am 46 years old...I get the same criticism from all my family members as you, and from many of my co-workers too, these are all people who don't even exercise...The funny thing is that they all know how fit I am and they all see how I perform, they see how much energy I have to do all the things I do, and yet they all think that I am starving myself... on my "high fat--high protein--lower carb diet" which averages about 2400-3000 calories of food per day.
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Old 12-13-15, 03:42 PM
  #165  
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Exactly. The point I'm making is that it is not wise to take advice based on the emotional bond (la familgia).
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Old 12-13-15, 04:06 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
So.... by being a practicing vegan..... you see yourself as heroically helping to save the world. And that's all I posted basically. Everyone likes to feel good about their own behavior and actions. And what child hasn't tied an old baby blanket, towel, or tablecloth around his/her neck and pretended to be... well super. Good times.

But we all grow-up. I could not care less if people eat meat or not. I don't even mind the smugness. But I've seen a loved one suffer from an eating disorder... and it is heart wrenching. I know what I posted won't break-though or help anyone. And I won't persist.
You are confused... Amongst other things you confuse facts with smugness... In any case, you sound quite defensive.
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Old 12-13-15, 04:19 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
It's a lot more then just sweet potatoes and veggies...Pork was also a big part of traditional Okinawan diet. Pork is very highly regarded and very popular amongst many Oriental and Asian cultures...The long life of Okinawans may also be due to eating smaller portions and more calorie restrictions. It's a fact that Okinawan diet is a lot lower in total calories then other diets, and it's also very low in sugar and grains, white rice is the only grain that is eaten regularly.
Wrong AGAIN!

from the Blue Zones -- an impartial study of those areas where people live the longest, healthiest lives...
"Older Okiniawans have eaten a plant based diet most of their lives. Their meals of stir-fried vegetables, sweet potatotes, and tofu are high in nutrients and low in calories. While centenarian Okinawans do eat some pork, it is traditionally reserved only infrequent ceremonial occasions and taken in small amounts"

But you are correct that Asian countries are eating more meat and animal based products. Today Okinawa has the most McDonald's per capita of any place in the world. And throughout Asia they are adopting our western eating habits -- and so, our western chronic diseases such as heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimer's and diet related cancers are becoming epidemic there just as they are here....
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Old 12-13-15, 05:54 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
You are confused... Amongst other things you confuse facts with smugness...
Me confused? Well the FACT is: As of yet no scientist has yet to track even one module of any nutrient though any human body.

Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
In any case, you sound quite defensive.
Defensive? What in Gods name could possibly be defensive about? I have nothing ventured to lose.
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Old 12-13-15, 06:04 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
...I get the same criticism from all my family members as you, and from many of my co-workers too,
......... they all think that I am starving myself
Family and friends are all trying to help you.... and you refuse to be helped. I am just curious... what sort of intervention would it take for them to convince you need.... lets just say: a different view of health.

Originally Posted by mgwilder View Post
..... The day one of my Dr's tells me I'm underweight I'll take it under consideration.
That's interesting! So if I read that correctly.... if (one of?) your doctor tells you that you're too thin and malnourished and need to get some serious complex proteins (like meat based meals)... you'll THINK about that?

Last edited by Dave Cutter; 12-13-15 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 12-13-15, 06:50 PM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
Family and friends are all trying to help you.... and you refuse to be helped.
Nutrition is a very personal thing. Every individual has different nutritional needs. Sedentary people have different needs from athletes. As long my style of eating keeps me healthy, energetic and performing well that's all that matters. I am not interested in trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
I am just curious... what sort of intervention would it take for them to convince you need.... lets just say: a different view of health.
....and I am curious to hear what your personal view of health is.
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Old 12-13-15, 07:29 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Nutrition is a very personal thing.....
....and I am curious to hear what your personal view of health is.
I am so sorry. I had no idea there was anything personal about feeding ourselves. Or that there is some ideology about health. I do understand that there are deep underlying issues with eating disorders... and have seen them with/through eating disorder affected loved ones. Again... I am sorry I can't be of any help to you on this.
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Old 12-13-15, 07:58 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
I am so sorry. I had no idea there was anything personal about feeding ourselves. Or that there is some ideology about health. I do understand that there are deep underlying issues with eating disorders... and have seen them with/through eating disorder affected loved ones. Again... I am sorry I can't be of any help to you on this.
I'll give you a credit for being extremely good at misinterpreting other peoples posts and taking other peoples replys out of their context/meaning and putting your own private interpertations on other peoples lifestyles.
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Old 12-13-15, 08:37 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I'll give you a credit for being extremely good at misinterpreting other peoples posts and taking other peoples replys out of their context/meaning and putting your own private interpertations on other peoples lifestyles.
In actual real-life situations I try my best to listen carefully so as to hear the truth behind the clutter of words. I try my best to do the same with written words too.
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Old 12-14-15, 06:17 AM
  #174  
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Nice point Dave. If it wasn't clear from my earlier posts, my diet is not based on a moral stance. That being said, I would have to pick myself up off the floor because my one cardiologist was the one who put me in the Ornish program, the other is at Fuhrman and assoc. (the protocol I follow), my GP practices integrative medicine and my Chinese Medicine/acupuncturist is totally on board. It would be the last thing any of them would suggest at this point in time based on my progress. I choose my medical team around my goals. They actually communicate with each other. They work for me, I am not one of their sheep. This was a big change for me over the past few years because I became tired and stressed by physicians who were just guessing and pushing me through their mill. And who needs the stress.
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Old 12-14-15, 07:00 AM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
Me confused? Well the FACT is: As of yet no scientist has yet to track even one module of any nutrient though any human body.



Defensive? What in Gods name could possibly be defensive about? I have nothing ventured to lose.
Really?
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