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Old 12-14-15, 09:12 AM
  #176  
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And now, getting back to the subject of this thread (from attacks by those who oppose non-meat centric diets), from the preface of Michael Greger's new book "How Not To Die"

"It all started with my grandmother.

I was only a kid when the doctors sent her home in a wheelchair to die. Diagnosed with end-stage heart disease, she had already had so many bypass operations that the surgeons essentially ran out of plumbing ... Confined to a wheelchair with crushing chest pain, her doctors told her there was nothing else they could do. Her life was over at 65.

I think what sparks many kids to become doctors when they grow up is watching a beloved relative become ill or even die. But for me, it was watching my grandma get better.

Soon after being discharged from the hospital to spend her last days at home, a segment aired on 60 minutes about Nathan Pritikin, an early lifestyle medicine pioneer ... He had just opened a center ... a live-in program where everyone was placed on a plant based diet and then started on a graded exercise regimen. They wheeled my grandmother in, and she walked out.

I'll never forget that.

She was featured in Pritikin's biography. ... described as one of the 'death's door people':
"Francis Greger arrived in Santa Barabara at one of Pritikin's early sessions in a wheel chair. Mrs. Greger had heart disease, angina, and claudication; her condition was so bad she could no longer walk without great pain in her chest and legs. Within 3 weeks, though, she was not only out of her wheelchair but was walking ten miles a day."

My grandma was given her medical death sentence at 65. Thanks to a healthy diet and lifestyle, she was able to enjoy another thirty one years on this earth ... The woman who was once told by doctors she only had weeks to live didn't die until she was ninety-six years old."


No, this does not prove the validity and efficacy of Whole Food Plant Based diets. In fact, Pritikin (one of the earliest pioneers in plant based diets didn't even follow an entirely vegan regimen -- he included low fat dairy and fish). But it does illustrate the power of plant based diets. And, this is not an isolated example: most proponents of Whole Food Plant Based diets can site dozens and hundreds of similar examples of miraculous and exceptionally fast turnarounds from states of disease to states of health -- which are then maintained for many years afterwards... They can also site strong clinical research and epidemiologic evidence as well...

But, unlike most diets, ( and this is an important difference) the proponents of these Whole Food Plant Based diets are not proposing diets that simply avoid disease or produce weight loss -- they are proposing health promoting lifestyle changes. And, this is a critical factor: Pretty much all of the proponents are using Food-As-Medicine. Not, the ONLY medicine (They will all prescribe pharmaceuticals as needed -- but ONLY as needed) -- but food is the primary medicine that they use to promote health and well being...

One of the more humorous examples of well being is one of Esselstyn's elderly patients who proudly proclaims that the Esselstyn diet enables him to continue to "raise the flag" even at his advanced age.

Other examples are numerous examples shown in clinical trials and epidemiological evidence of dramatic reductions in major chronic (western) diseases such as heart disease, dementia, diabetes and many of the most common forms of cancers....

At this point, most major agencies (the Heart, cancer, Alzheimer & diabetes associations, as well as the WHO and USDA) are all saying the same thing: "Eat More Whole Plant Foods". It seems to me that we are at the beginning of a tidal wave of change where the analogy is back in the 70's and 80's where they are not yet saying "Do Not Smoke" but rather: "Cut back on smoking or go to 'low-tar' cigarettes" -- and meanwhile, the industries profiting from these unhealthy habits are fighting the transition tooth and nail and every step with emotional appeals, pseudo-science and misleading confusion.

For me though, the evidence is in. No matter how I look at it and from which angle the evidence shows one thing convincingly well: A Whole Food Plant Based diet (along with exercise and stress reduction) is the best way to health and well being...

For myself, this diet and the exercise have enabled me to overcome 40+ years of unhealthy living and get off of all of my cholesterol and blood pressure medicines that I had been on for nearly 20 years -- and today I am probably stronger and healthier than I have ever been in my life. The promises of the Whole Food Plant Based diet became very real and very personal for me. Not only is the evidence overwhelming, it is illustrated in my life everytime I go to bed and do not have to take a handful of pills. And, oh yes, I can still 'raise the flag'.

To close, one of the emerging areas of research is the impact of both a healthy diet and exercise on brain health. The following is a 15 minute video from the Alzheimer's Association on the impact of an anti-oxidant rich (I.e., rich in whole fruits and vege's) and exercise on brain health. That is: they both independently promote brain health.
Videos and Media

Reducing or eliminating Alzheimer's would not only benefit those unfortunates who suffer from this disease -- but eliminate hundreds of billions of dollars spent annually to care for those unfortunates. How can we afford to continue to ignore the effect of healthy lifestyle's on these diseases?

p.s. Another interesting video from the Alzheimer's Association on the impact of insulin resistance on the promotion of Alzheimer's and the prevention of insulin resistance. That is: reducing/eliminating high saturated fat (animal based) foods and simple sugars and refined carbohydrates.
Videos and Media

Last edited by GeorgeBMac; 12-15-15 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 12-14-15, 07:55 PM
  #177  
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116-year-old woman eats bacon every day - NaturalNews.com Here is proof that eating meat isn't harmful.
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Old 12-14-15, 10:19 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
....and I am curious to hear what your personal view of health is.
The average male in America has a BMI of 26.6. After a while people start to think of that as 'Normal' since everyone else is fat. Of course they're going to think you're overly skinny even though you would have been much closer to normal 50 yrs ago. Here's an old picture from 2nd Beach in Vancouver in the 40's before McDonald's was available:

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Old 12-15-15, 04:18 AM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
The average male in America has a BMI of 26.6. After a while people start to think of that as 'Normal' since everyone else is fat. Of course they're going to think you're overly skinny even though you would have been much closer to normal 50 yrs ago. Here's an old picture from 2nd Beach in Vancouver in the 40's before McDonald's was available:

Yes, that's what people looked like back then. But standards and expectations have changed...
While I was growing up in the 50's & 60's, not only were few people fat but, fat was equated to "lazy". Fat people were not disparaged because fat was looked on as unhealthy so much as it was an indication of laziness. But then, people tended to eat less fat producing meals (most were home cooked without gobs of added fats and sugars). So, when a person was fat it was more typically due to a lack of exercise than a poor diet.

Yes, those diets were loaded with unhealthy cholesterol and saturated fats but, without the added fats and sugars that are added today in order to make low-quality foods taste good, they at least were less likely to make people fat...

But today people defend fat!
There is a video today in the BBC of fat-defender attacking the equivalent of the UK surgeon general for saying that being fat is unhealthy. She largely defends fat by saying "We can't help it!". And, perhaps she is right -- NOT because of the nonsense Lustig spouts in "Fat Chance" but because they eat the Standard Western Diet laced with low quality foods loaded with added fats & sugars to make them taste good.

And, no added fats & sugars, by the way, is a hall mark of both the Paleo and Whole Food Plant Based diets: a restriction on added refined fats and sugars. However, some Whole Food Plant Based proponents will bend slightly on that in order to make their dishes more palatable. McDougal says it is OK to add a little sugar if it gets you to eat something otherwise healthy and Ornish has his Spectrum which includes both a Reversal diet as well as a Prevention diet which is more flexible...
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Old 12-15-15, 04:21 AM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
116-year-old woman eats bacon every day - NaturalNews.com Here is proof that eating meat isn't harmful.
You keep spouting nonsense while trying to trash this vegan thread... I hope it makes you feel better about your poor diet.

But it's interesting that even the strongest proponents of eating meat can only claim "It isn't harmful". It sets a pretty low bar...

BTW, are you unaware that the WHO has (in addition to all the other diseases they are known to cause) reported that processed meats such as bacon are carcinogenic -- or do you just ignore the reports that do not support your ideology?

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Old 12-16-15, 09:29 AM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
116-year-old woman eats bacon every day - NaturalNews.com Here is proof that eating meat isn't harmful.

There is always an anomoly. One single case is not proof as you would have it.

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Old 12-16-15, 09:29 AM
  #182  
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Nah man he doesn't because for him to take away his bacon is to take away his "freedom"
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Old 12-16-15, 09:40 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
And now, getting back to the subject of this thread (from attacks by those who oppose non-meat centric diets), from the preface of Michael Greger's new book "How Not To Die"

"It all started with my grandmother.

I was only a kid when the doctors sent her home in a wheelchair to die. Diagnosed with end-stage heart disease, she had already had so many bypass operations that the surgeons essentially ran out of plumbing ... Confined to a wheelchair with crushing chest pain, her doctors told her there was nothing else they could do. Her life was over at 65.

I think what sparks many kids to become doctors when they grow up is watching a beloved relative become ill or even die. But for me, it was watching my grandma get better.

Soon after being discharged from the hospital to spend her last days at home, a segment aired on 60 minutes about Nathan Pritikin, an early lifestyle medicine pioneer ... He had just opened a center ... a live-in program where everyone was placed on a plant based diet and then started on a graded exercise regimen. They wheeled my grandmother in, and she walked out.

I'll never forget that.

She was featured in Pritikin's biography. ... described as one of the 'death's door people':
"Francis Greger arrived in Santa Barabara at one of Pritikin's early sessions in a wheel chair. Mrs. Greger had heart disease, angina, and claudication; her condition was so bad she could no longer walk without great pain in her chest and legs. Within 3 weeks, though, she was not only out of her wheelchair but was walking ten miles a day."

My grandma was given her medical death sentence at 65. Thanks to a healthy diet and lifestyle, she was able to enjoy another thirty one years on this earth ... The woman who was once told by doctors she only had weeks to live didn't die until she was ninety-six years old."


No, this does not prove the validity and efficacy of Whole Food Plant Based diets. In fact, Pritikin (one of the earliest pioneers in plant based diets didn't even follow an entirely vegan regimen -- he included low fat dairy and fish). But it does illustrate the power of plant based diets. And, this is not an isolated example: most proponents of Whole Food Plant Based diets can site dozens and hundreds of similar examples of miraculous and exceptionally fast turnarounds from states of disease to states of health -- which are then maintained for many years afterwards... They can also site strong clinical research and epidemiologic evidence as well...

But, unlike most diets, ( and this is an important difference) the proponents of these Whole Food Plant Based diets are not proposing diets that simply avoid disease or produce weight loss -- they are proposing health promoting lifestyle changes. And, this is a critical factor: Pretty much all of the proponents are using Food-As-Medicine. Not, the ONLY medicine (They will all prescribe pharmaceuticals as needed -- but ONLY as needed) -- but food is the primary medicine that they use to promote health and well being...

One of the more humorous examples of well being is one of Esselstyn's elderly patients who proudly proclaims that the Esselstyn diet enables him to continue to "raise the flag" even at his advanced age.

Other examples are numerous examples shown in clinical trials and epidemiological evidence of dramatic reductions in major chronic (western) diseases such as heart disease, dementia, diabetes and many of the most common forms of cancers....

At this point, most major agencies (the Heart, cancer, Alzheimer & diabetes associations, as well as the WHO and USDA) are all saying the same thing: "Eat More Whole Plant Foods". It seems to me that we are at the beginning of a tidal wave of change where the analogy is back in the 70's and 80's where they are not yet saying "Do Not Smoke" but rather: "Cut back on smoking or go to 'low-tar' cigarettes" -- and meanwhile, the industries profiting from these unhealthy habits are fighting the transition tooth and nail and every step with emotional appeals, pseudo-science and misleading confusion.

For me though, the evidence is in. No matter how I look at it and from which angle the evidence shows one thing convincingly well: A Whole Food Plant Based diet (along with exercise and stress reduction) is the best way to health and well being...

For myself, this diet and the exercise have enabled me to overcome 40+ years of unhealthy living and get off of all of my cholesterol and blood pressure medicines that I had been on for nearly 20 years -- and today I am probably stronger and healthier than I have ever been in my life. The promises of the Whole Food Plant Based diet became very real and very personal for me. Not only is the evidence overwhelming, it is illustrated in my life everytime I go to bed and do not have to take a handful of pills. And, oh yes, I can still 'raise the flag'.

To close, one of the emerging areas of research is the impact of both a healthy diet and exercise on brain health. The following is a 15 minute video from the Alzheimer's Association on the impact of an anti-oxidant rich (I.e., rich in whole fruits and vege's) and exercise on brain health. That is: they both independently promote brain health.
Videos and Media

Reducing or eliminating Alzheimer's would not only benefit those unfortunates who suffer from this disease -- but eliminate hundreds of billions of dollars spent annually to care for those unfortunates. How can we afford to continue to ignore the effect of healthy lifestyle's on these diseases?

p.s. Another interesting video from the Alzheimer's Association on the impact of insulin resistance on the promotion of Alzheimer's and the prevention of insulin resistance. That is: reducing/eliminating high saturated fat (animal based) foods and simple sugars and refined carbohydrates.
Videos and Media
Can't wait to give this one a read; going to order after I finish this semester. Did you read Whole? I didn't like it as much as the China Study for the China Study made me take a step back and exhale, "Whoa."
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Old 12-16-15, 06:16 PM
  #184  
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Yep, watch some of the public health forums and look at how many MD's are calling for a change in the diet pyramid to exclude meat and dairy. It is an indication that the old way of eating is piss poor and science has apparently known this for some time, but it has taken many years, decades to be brought to light.
Most will cling to the past in the belief that their way of eating is fine, because god forbid someone having to give up something they love...

All of us will die, and no one is saying you will live forever if you convert now, but we can reverse lots of the damage and stop most of the rest, but how many years have you already taking off your life by eating something that isn't good for you?

I converted over 14 months ago and feel so much better than I ever have! The excess energy is what led me to start cycling. But, I wish I would not have wasted 43+ yrs to find out...

Or, you can go eat some more bacon and tell us how healthy you are....
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Old 12-17-15, 04:37 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by DosWheelsBtr View Post
Can't wait to give this one a read; going to order after I finish this semester. Did you read Whole? I didn't like it as much as the China Study for the China Study made me take a step back and exhale, "Whoa."
Yes, I did read "Whole". It was not a 'fun' read as it was more academic in nature because it was more focused on systemic/research factors rather than personal 'how do I do this?' things....

But I did get a lot out of it because my view of research and industry influence over government food policy and dietary recommendations was refined and clarified. The two biggest things I learned were:
1) Big Food & Big Agriculture have a huge influence/control over supposedly impartial, evidence based governmental policy and guidelines -- much like how the tobacco industry suppressed and discredited evidence against their products back in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

2) The pervasive use of what Campbell calls 'reductionist' research (where the researcher only looks at a tiny piece of the overall picture) tends to focus on individual trees or even individual leaves and ignore the forest. Further, reductionist research can be easily manipulated to "prove" pretty much anything you want. Yet, despite its limitations, funding is increasingly and pervasively channeled towards reductionist type research (possibly as a result of the influence the food and agricultural industries exert over government funded research) while wholistic research languishes. A prime example of that (which Campbell does not mention) is the defunding of the ongoing Framingham Study which has taught us so much about heart disease.

And too, I learned that we have yet to understand the effect of eating a particular food. Yes, we can break out its major nutrients and produce them in pill form -- but we do not understand how that "Whole Food" impacts the human body. In other words, we can pull the vitamin C out of an orange and inject it into Tang, but we are very far away from understanding the entire impact that eating an orange has on our bodies and duplicating it with Tang...

Human physiology is simply too complex and interrelated to be over simplified with reductionist research into the effects of this chemical or that chemical.

While Campbell decries the almost exclusive reliance on reductionist research he does not discredit it entirely. He knows that it is useful for adding individual data points into our understanding and he freely acknowledges that conducting that type of research comprised a major piece of his own distinguished career as a nutritional researcher. But he strongly cautions against relying on it exclusively and ignoring the impact that whole foods have on the body.
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Old 12-17-15, 04:57 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Harvieu25 View Post
Yep, watch some of the public health forums and look at how many MD's are calling for a change in the diet pyramid to exclude meat and dairy. It is an indication that the old way of eating is piss poor and science has apparently known this for some time, but it has taken many years, decades to be brought to light.
Most will cling to the past in the belief that their way of eating is fine, because god forbid someone having to give up something they love...

All of us will die, and no one is saying you will live forever if you convert now, but we can reverse lots of the damage and stop most of the rest, but how many years have you already taking off your life by eating something that isn't good for you?

I converted over 14 months ago and feel so much better than I ever have! The excess energy is what led me to start cycling. But, I wish I would not have wasted 43+ yrs to find out...

Or, you can go eat some more bacon and tell us how healthy you are....
I don't think we are quite there yet...
It seems to me that while most government and agency recommendations tend to center around "eat more fruits, vege's and legumes" they have yet to say: "eliminate animal products"...

But, for me, that shift was a piece of the evidence for a plant based diet that swung me towards eating only whole plant based foods: almost every agency recommends a shift towards more plant food and less animal food... Not a single one that I have seen advocates eating more animal products or even sets minimum levels of animal based foods to eat. But yet neither has a single one said to "eat only plant based foods".

I think we are in the same type of transition phase that we were in with tobacco back in the 70's and 80's. The evidence is there -- but the recommendations are being influenced by industry and consumer preference (like we were told to 'smoke less' or 'smoke low tar cigarettes' because they were unable to say: "stop smoking completely!")... The example that Greger sites is the physician with tobacco stained fingers trying to tell his patient to stop smoking -- today it is the big bellied physician with gravy stains on his tie telling his patient to eat whole plant based foods. He just can't get away with it. But that is slowly, very slowly, changing...

But the food industry, the meat & dairy industries, and the pharmaceutical industry are fighting the change every step of the way -- because their livelihoods depend on maintaining some version of the Standard American Diet.

To me, the mantra: "Eat in moderation / there are no bad foods" is equivalent to being told to 'cut back on cigarettes or convert to low-tar cigarettes. Yes, it's healthier than not doing that -- but it still ain't healthy!
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Old 12-17-15, 05:31 AM
  #187  
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Some of the posts in this thread read like a religious diatribe. All life consumes other life, almost always without consent, the human population is no exception. As far as food, most of the ill effects have been caused by industrial food production on a massive scale. This is not by accident, the healthcare *ahem* sickcare agribusiness industry is very profitable. Its quite effective at generally keeping people living longer, yet far short of their optimum health. Most people are trapped, unable to think for themselves, relying on "expert" advice on everything.
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Old 12-17-15, 02:27 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
Some of the posts in this thread read like a religious diatribe. All life consumes other life, almost always without consent, the human population is no exception. As far as food, most of the ill effects have been caused by industrial food production on a massive scale. This is not by accident, the healthcare *ahem* sickcare agribusiness industry is very profitable. Its quite effective at generally keeping people living longer, yet far short of their optimum health. Most people are trapped, unable to think for themselves, relying on "expert" advice on everything.
Yes, industrial food production has created a surplus of very cheap "food" which is purchased by poor people because it's all they can afford. These products are made available through a hyper-saturation of the marketplace. The ideal in cities is to have junk food outlets no more than 100 yards apart. The lack of micronutrients in junk food explains the phenomenon of obese poor people.

Our system is now failing to keep people living longer. Only the relatively wealthy are living longer. The US has a higher rate of infant mortality than many East European countries:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2091rank.html
Mississippi has a higher infant mortality rate than Botswana:
Infant Mortality Rate (Deaths per 1,000 Live Births) | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

These are the results posted by our system.
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Old 12-17-15, 05:47 PM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by DosWheelsBtr View Post
Can't wait to give this one a read; going to order after I finish this semester. Did you read Whole? I didn't like it as much as the China Study for the China Study made me take a step back and exhale, "Whoa."
China Study is not grounded in science and it's not based on reality...Reading China Study is no different then reading some fantasy novel.
It's nothing but propaganda...Have you ever been to an oriental supermarket ??, I guarantee you that they are not vegan...I've worked with many oriental people in my life and non of them were vegetarian. Sure they eat a lot of veggies and rice but they also love their pork and seafood, they will eat anything that moves.
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Old 12-17-15, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
The average male in America has a BMI of 26.6. After a while people start to think of that as 'Normal' since everyone else is fat. Of course they're going to think you're overly skinny even though you would have been much closer to normal 50 yrs ago. Here's an old picture from 2nd Beach in Vancouver in the 40's before McDonald's was available:

Yeah, amazing...And none of them are vegan.
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Old 12-17-15, 10:11 PM
  #191  
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Another thought about the photo posted above.

That was during, or near the end of WW2? People in the states were in (or just coming out of) a severe economic depression, cheap food in supermarkets was a fantasy. The vast majority of the population, at least in the US would not have been overweight, many were underweight. Also, meat was more of a luxury back then, it wasn't widely available as it is today, something that most people now take for granted. There is a British reality TV series called The Island with Bear Grylls (TV Series 2014? ) - IMDb, it demonstrates quite clearly in extreme circumstances, most people will eat anything they can. In many parts of the world people still are not aware they have any choice about what they eat.
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Old 12-18-15, 05:22 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
China Study is not grounded in science and it's not based on reality...Reading China Study is no different then reading some fantasy novel.
It's nothing but propaganda...Have you ever been to an oriental supermarket ??, I guarantee you that they are not vegan...I've worked with many oriental people in my life and non of them were vegetarian. Sure they eat a lot of veggies and rice but they also love their pork and seafood, they will eat anything that moves.
Wrong AGAIN!
Paleo/Atkins ideologurs try to refute the China Study not because it is invalid but because it points out the failure of their ideology...
.
No, it is a real study using real, validated statistical methodology using real people.
.... Deal with it!
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Old 12-18-15, 05:27 AM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Yeah, amazing...And none of them are vegan.
You sound very frightened of veganism. Does it threaten your ideology? Well yes, I guess it does as, despite the best efforts of the meat and dairy industries, pretty much all major health related agencies recommend shifting away from animal based nutrition to plant based...

Frankly, your attacks on a healthy diet are getting old and boring...
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Old 12-18-15, 05:44 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
Another thought about the photo posted above.

That was during, or near the end of WW2? People in the states were in (or just coming out of) a severe economic depression, cheap food in supermarkets was a fantasy. The vast majority of the population, at least in the US would not have been overweight, many were underweight. Also, meat was more of a luxury back then, it wasn't widely available as it is today, something that most people now take for granted. There is a British reality TV series called The Island with Bear Grylls (TV Series 2014? ) - IMDb, it demonstrates quite clearly in extreme circumstances, most people will eat anything they can. In many parts of the world people still are not aware they have any choice about what they eat.
Having grown up in the post-WW II era, I can assure you that your analysis or food prices and availability may have been true for Europe, but not the U.S.

On the other hand, cheap foods did not become highly prevalent until the years after Nixon encouraged them with federal programs that spawned the factory farms we have today. And, cheap processed foods became increasingly prevalent in the 60's when we thought that science could trump nature -- and Tang was supposedly as healthy as orange juice and Wonder Bread actually healthier than Whole Wheat bread.

The obesity epidemic began to grow in the 70's & 80's but did not really take off until the 90's. In the 50's and 60's most of the concern was about out-of-shape kids rather than obese kids as it is today.

It is true however that in the 40's & 50's and into the 60's, people did not shop at the huge, major supermarkets with a dozen types of everything like we have today. They were much more likely to go to the Butcher and Baker and other local markets... Food was much more local back then -- grown locally on small family farms and distributed locally -- so, yes, it was more expensive.

I think the real key for the lack of obesity back in the 40's, 50's & 60's was a combination of the fact that an obese individual was looked down upon as "lazy" plus most meals were made from real food at home. Pizzas were a rare treat as were the 6 ounce Coca Colas... People simply looked at food differently than we do now... Food meant a meal shared with family at a table together (or a hand packed brown bag for lunch) -- not a continuous conveyor belt of cheap fat and sugar...

Last edited by GeorgeBMac; 12-18-15 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 12-18-15, 08:28 AM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
You sound very frightened of veganism. Does it threaten your ideology? Well yes, I guess it does as, despite the best efforts of the meat and dairy industries, pretty much all major health related agencies recommend shifting away from animal based nutrition to plant based...

Frankly, your attacks on a healthy diet are getting old and boring...
He has been doing it since the beginning of the forum.

On a different note: I am utterly surprised with the protein craze that currently enthralls people.
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Old 12-18-15, 09:27 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
Having grown up in the post-WW II era, I can assure you that your analysis or food prices and availability may have been true for Europe, but not the U.S.

On the other hand, cheap foods did not become highly prevalent until the years after Nixon encouraged them with federal programs that spawned the factory farms we have today. And, cheap processed foods became increasingly prevalent in the 60's when we thought that science could trump nature -- and Tang was supposedly as healthy as orange juice and Wonder Bread actually healthier than Whole Wheat bread.

The obesity epidemic began to grow in the 70's & 80's but did not really take off until the 90's. In the 50's and 60's most of the concern was about out-of-shape kids rather than obese kids as it is today.

It is true however that in the 40's & 50's and into the 60's, people did not shop at the huge, major supermarkets with a dozen types of everything like we have today. They were much more likely to go to the Butcher and Baker and other local markets... Food was much more local back then -- grown locally on small family farms and distributed locally -- so, yes, it was more expensive.

I think the real key for the lack of obesity back in the 40's, 50's & 60's was a combination of the fact that an obese individual was looked down upon as "lazy" plus most meals were made from real food at home. Pizzas were a rare treat as were the 6 ounce Coca Colas... People simply looked at food differently than we do now... Food meant a meal shared with family at a table together (or a hand packed brown bag for lunch) -- not a continuous conveyor belt of cheap fat and sugar...
My grandmother tells me a different story then you remember. Were you around in the 1940's? It was a real horror show for most folks back then, or so I've heard? The baby boomer generation had/still has no clue of the sacrifices that were made by the previous generation. The sense of entitlement that most people have now is off the charts, made possible by decades of television, and propaganda, and an endless supply of self appointed experts that believe they know what is best for everyone on the planet.

Science has been turned into pop culture that has a cult like religious following, its become an exclusive club. The masses are not actually taught science anymore, the old chemistry kits are banned, deemed too dangerous. Many studies are not open to the public, usually pay walled, or limited to university alumni etc. The internet has helped, however most people only use facebook, and the context of most conversations is purely topical, nothing of any real substance.

In summary, most of humanity has no idea of the mess that has been made in the 20th century, we continue to plow ahead with great ideas, such as junk food, endless entertainment, broken families, and health problems galore. Meanwhile people have to argue about which diet is the most suitable for the entire human population. Kind of like rearranging the deck chairs before the ship sinks.

Good Luck!
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Old 12-18-15, 03:20 PM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
The obesity epidemic began to grow in the 70's & 80's but did not really take off until the 90's.
The 70's was when the low-fat craze started to take-off. The 80's and 90's was when the low-fat and fat-free craze reached it's peak.
Those were the days when our government, our doctors and our nutritionists encouraged people to abandon eating healthy fats such as dairy butter and animal/fish fats and replace them with industrial oils and fats such as vegetable oils and margarine. Instead of using butter or lard to cook or bake something, people were using hydrogenated vegatable trans fats...Just look around and see what the fat-free and low-fat diets have done to our population...The problem with removing fat from food is that it looses a lot of it's taste and nutritional value. Those lost fat calories need to replaced with something and in most cases they are replaced with sugars and starch. When you remove fat from food you're removing a lot of nutrition...Here we are in 2015 and more and more research and evidence is starting to come out and prove that fat from animal products is not the enemy.
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Old 12-18-15, 10:47 PM
  #198  
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How can you tell if someone is a Roman Catholic Priest? Easy, it's the collar.

How can you tell if someone is a police officer? Easy again! It's the badge.

How can you tell if someone is a vegan? Don't worry. They'll tell you.

(No seriously, this is a cool thread and it's interesting to read. I just wanted to take the opportunity to share that joke )

On a more serious note; I used to be obese. Chalk it up to everything mentioned in this thread. Easy access to cheap processed food. Eating now organic, healthier foods (I do still eat meat; fish and chicken, hopefully I can still chat around here without being torch and pitchforked!), and I'm actually spending less. The food is more expensive but I buy a lot less of it.
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Old 12-19-15, 06:51 AM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
The 70's was when the low-fat craze started to take-off. The 80's and 90's was when the low-fat and fat-free craze reached it's peak.
Those were the days when our government, our doctors and our nutritionists encouraged people to abandon eating healthy fats such as dairy butter and animal/fish fats and replace them with industrial oils and fats such as vegetable oils and margarine. Instead of using butter or lard to cook or bake something, people were using hydrogenated vegatable trans fats...Just look around and see what the fat-free and low-fat diets have done to our population...The problem with removing fat from food is that it looses a lot of it's taste and nutritional value. Those lost fat calories need to replaced with something and in most cases they are replaced with sugars and starch. When you remove fat from food you're removing a lot of nutrition...Here we are in 2015 and more and more research and evidence is starting to come out and prove that fat from animal products is not the enemy.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...s-bad-for-you/

Still going on with the healthy fats I see..
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Old 12-19-15, 06:56 AM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
My grandmother tells me a different story then you remember. Were you around in the 1940's? It was a real horror show for most folks back then, or so I've heard? The baby boomer generation had/still has no clue of the sacrifices that were made by the previous generation. The sense of entitlement that most people have now is off the charts, made possible by decades of television, and propaganda, and an endless supply of self appointed experts that believe they know what is best for everyone on the planet.

Science has been turned into pop culture that has a cult like religious following, its become an exclusive club. The masses are not actually taught science anymore, the old chemistry kits are banned, deemed too dangerous. Many studies are not open to the public, usually pay walled, or limited to university alumni etc. The internet has helped, however most people only use facebook, and the context of most conversations is purely topical, nothing of any real substance.

In summary, most of humanity has no idea of the mess that has been made in the 20th century, we continue to plow ahead with great ideas, such as junk food, endless entertainment, broken families, and health problems galore. Meanwhile people have to argue about which diet is the most suitable for the entire human population. Kind of like rearranging the deck chairs before the ship sinks.

Good Luck!

People argue about the ideal lifestyle bc the science is there to support it. A wholefoods plant based diet/veganism can reduce/reverse chronic diseases that plague the western world along with help fight global warming. You can choose to have a broken family, endless entertainment, health problems, etc. It seems you have a victim complex. The lifestyle isn't rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship, more adapt to constantly plugging the fuggin' holes.
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