Carbonfiberboy 

It's a bit amazing how little effort riders in the peloton have to expend when they're not climbing. They are frequently in zone 1. I think they do burn fat when going easy. Chapple makes a good case for increasing total wattage through increasing fat burning in Base Building for Cyclists.

sprince

One thing that can't be ignored about eliminating simple sugars. It's healthier, regardless of any performance arguments. And healthier translates to less days with colds or other illnesses, less training days missed, and far more predictable energy levels overall. I consider one sick day per year as an aberrant state directly related to dietary and lifestyle choices.

Rowan

Joe Minton

"Fat Chance" by Dr. Lustig (ISBN-13:9780142180433)

The work of Dr. Lustig and almost countless others have deliniated our obesity problem -- read it if you dare ;o)

Joe

JoDon

I submit only one recently done study to support my claim. An excerpt: "Available evidence in humans shows that sugar and sweetness can induce reward and craving that are comparable in magnitude to those induced by addictive drugs." The link to this study can be found at this government website: Sugar addiction: pushing the drug-sugar analogy to the limit. - PubMed - NCBI

I only posted one quote, but I have reviewed several studies that support my claim. Sugar is addictive, and if you aren't a sugar addict, you wouldn't know just how addictive it is. But I do, and studies are supporting that claim.

Carbonfiberboy 

That's the abstract of an opinion article in a journal I've never heard of. It's not a study, nor does it refer to any studies on which the authors' opinion might be based.

T Stew

You may be right for that, I have not considered training for the TdF myself, or anything remotely like it. I train for 50-100 mile rides under 20mph usually closer to 15 for those longer rides. I'll likely never be able to compete on that kind of level, especially working rotating shifts. If winning the TdF is in your future, I think they do more [bad] things to themselves than just consume sugar. But if those kind of stakes are on the line then do what it takes to win I guess, rig up a portable blood transfusion on your bike, but I'd rather do what is healthier and more sustainable. Most of my nutrition and training is more geared towards running, and I can easily run long distances without any carbs. I did a 16 mile run today + 1 mile walk (cooldown) having only ate 3 eggs and a banana 3 hrs prior. For a full marathon race I carb up a little, (natural carbs such as fruits), and I don't need anything during the run except for a few medjool dates just for good measure. I've trained the last few years not entirely sugar or carb free but just minimal. Never hit the wall like so many do, even in only half-marathons folks are chugging down gels. I may not be elite, but lack of sugar doesn't seem to be what is holding me back.

Rowan

I don't know, but if I was making determined statements, I would very careful about what follows. Eggs also, unbelievably, contain a small amount of carbohydrates.

T Stew

Yes I should say on minimal carbs, I have never completly eliminated carbs. That would take more will power than even I have. In fact I have a danish in my bag today here at work. I do beleive you have to treat yourself once in a while. (Though the carbs in eggs is insignificant and I beleive even Maffetones 2 week carb test allows you to eat eggs, but I'd have to double check to be sure)

redlude97

running is not cycling. period. Unless you only ride flats under threshold, you are going to go anaerobic on the bike, which simply cannot be fueled by fat or ketones.

nycphotography

Under threshold. Doesn't matter flat or hilly, if you can climb it under threshold, then you are still under threshold.

redlude97

Sure, but unless you have a power meter and know your threshold, most people will go anaerobic for portions of hills.

nycphotography

True.

When the HR shoots up, it's time to dial it back.

My question has always been (and nobody has ever really given clarity)... if I can do the same effort at 200 watts (z3) and 75 cadence at a HR 140 (z3), OR I can do it at 200 watts (z3) at 95 cadence at a HR 155 (z4), which is the anaerobic and which is the aerobic? Which is burning more (transient) glycogen and which is using more (sustainable) fat?

On the one hand, the HR is higher when spinning.... but on the other hand, that's the aerobic capacity being tapped. Nobody has ever really explained the impact on glycogen use from one to the other.

redlude97

Here is a good primer Cycling New Zealand - Cycling News, Events, Results, Photos, Articles, Riders

Carbonfiberboy 

I think this subject has been discussed quite a bit here.

There's no question that higher cadence at the same power output increases HR. We can confuse that assertion quite a bit by making another assertion: Training at higher cadence will reduce the HR variation with cadence at constant watts. Pretty much everyone who's tried converting to a higher cadence has discovered that. Your variation is pretty normal for an untrained cyclist. How to train for higher cadence is a different subject.

Lab tests have shown that the optimal low intensity cadence in terms of HR is somewhere around 55. As output rises, "most efficient" cadence w/r to HR also rises. I put that in quotes because I'm not defining that term. I don't recall whether the studies used trained or untrained cyclists.

I recommend you read the following links to get somewhat firm, but at least interesting answers to your questions, which are very interesting in and of themselves:
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post17842881
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post18421344
The relationship between cadence, pedalling technique and gross efficiency in cycling

Most long distance cyclists pedal a high cadence. As power outputs rise, higher cadences of say 90-115 increase endurance. I've always thought this was because as cadence rises, each muscle contraction can be less intense and thus less glycogen is burned. But why would this be so? Perhaps because as more fibers are recruited for stronger contractions, more type II fibers come into play. Type II fibers do favor glycolytic reactions which burn much more glycogen. Or, perhaps it's not glycogen use at all, perhaps it's that Type II fibers generate more waste and the muscles drown in it. I don't know of a definitive study which answers this question.

Be that as it may, we do know that one can train to produce high power at a higher cadence and that this will increase endurance at that power output. Exactly what is being trained would be a good question, but the answer doesn't alter the fact that it works.

T Stew

The Maffetone method that I am basing most of my info off applies to cycling and most all endurance athletes. And a hrm is still a pretty good indicator of your aerobic or MAF threshold.

I concede however that almost everything I do is on the flats. I'm not sure if this link will work but here is my normal bike trails, showing a 50+ mile route, that is around 500' total ascent. But being a flat rail trail you don't notice it as the grade is so low that elevation is spread over all 50 miles, there are no actual hills.
[url]edit:nope not working

It is a lot easier for me to go anaerobic running than it is cycling.

gregf83 

I think your example is probably exaggerated but they're both aerobic exercise. The lower cadence is a little more efficient.

The heavier you are the bigger the difference in HR between low and high cadence. At higher cadence if you've got excess weight on your legs there is a lot of wasted effort moving them up and down.

I've done 5 min intervals a little above threshold and compared HR for different cadences. I saw some differences but it wasn't more than about 5 beats as I recall. A little hard to tell as HR was changing with each successive interval but certainly never saw as dramatic a change as you mentioned above.

OBoile

A little more research would show that the issue is far more complex:
Is Sugar a Drug? Addiction Explained

Again, just because something triggers the reward circuitry in the brain doesn't mean it's addictive and there is not a direct relationship between how powerful that trigger is and how addictive something is.

jacksdad

Fascinating post, thank you!

My post ride immediate feeding is a shake with whey protein, banana, blueberries and either strawberry or raspberry with a touch of mango. I'll also throw in a couple tablespoons of Metamucil. Spinach is added when we have it.

Thoughts on this? I have a lot of weight to lose.

nycphotography

well depending on how bad you want to succeed, start by cutting the fruit from the recovery drink. its just excess calories you dont need.

jacksdad

What would you recommend replacing the fruit with? whey and spinach is a little tough to take. Just keep blueberries?

Stadjer

Spinach and ricotta go very well together, and ricotta is often mistaken for a cheese, but it's actually a whey product.

nycphotography

Recipes are pretty personal / subjective, so take this as just me being me.

I personally, if goal driven, will get a shaker bottle, the one with the spring thing inside. 8 oz milk, 50g of whey protein (2 scoops). Shake well. Drink.

It has no flavor. Oh well, so be it. Ironically, after a few days I got used it and started finding flavor and texture in it and it was... ok.

Take the spinach, put it on a plate, eat it as a salad. No reason it has to go in your drink. Pile on about twice as much. Toss on some feta or bleu cheese crumbles. Add salt, pepper, maybe some olive oil, maybe some shaved almonds. Light on the chees, light on the olive oil, light on the almonds. I use more black pepper for flavor to make up for all the fat I cut out.

Again, recipes are very subjective.

Carbonfiberboy 

It is not true that you don't need to replace glycogen burned. "Fat burns in a carbohydrate fire." You'll lose weight faster if you can ride harder. Some riders claim they've had the best results losing weight by doing HIIT - high intensity interval training. You can google it: "HIIT fat loss study" and get https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2991639/

You can't do HIIT without glycogen. Your recovery shake is fine but leave out the spinach. Have spinach for dinner if you want it.

Here's a good recipe for weight loss through exercise:
1) Plan to ride either first thing in the morning or before dinner.
2) Just before getting on your bike, drink 15g flavored whey protein and 15g sugar dissolved in 8 oz. water. I use a small gram scale to figure out what that is.
3) Take a bottle of sports drink with you on the bike, but try not to drink it unless you start feeling woozy. Put it back in the fridge when you return.
4) If it's warm or hot, take a bottle of plain water with you. Fine to drink that.
5) Ride for about 2 hours, your choice of intensity. Some days keep it down to a conversational pace, some days go hard on the hills.
6) When you return, have a protein shake. 25g protein, 50g carbs, then a meal soon after. I use sugar or maltodextrin for the carbs so I can measure it, but fruit works fine too, just not too much. If you can't eat a meal soon after and get hungry, take a bagel and cut it in eighths. Every 15 minutes, eat an eighth until you don't feel starving anymore.

The above is a method of doing what's known as fasted cardio. It works. The protein before is to prevent muscle breakdown.
One can do the same thing with HIIT in place of endurance work.

The main thing to understand is that weight loss happens when your calories in are less than your calories out. However you can manage that! Adding protein in when exercising limits muscle loss, but that protein and carbs in shakes have to be added into your allowed calorie intake. Timing protein and calorie intake around exercise is critical. You might even gain a little muscle while losing fat. I have managed that when I'm really being conscientious.

For further reading, there's a decent article on exercise and fat loss here: https://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Articl...ggfatloss.html

If I'm trying to lose weight/fat, I weigh myself first thing every morning on an accurate electronic scale. If I'm not lighter almost every day than the day before, I need to eat less/exercise more. I eat less simply by using smaller portions in my meals.

nycphotography

True, but that misses and / or obscures the point.

The real question is: Which glycogen do you want to use and how do you want to replenish it? From sugars and carbs in a sport and/or recovery drink? Or do you want to run a glycogen deficit and force the body to reclaim it from fat cells later?

You have some non trivial amount of glycogen in your blood and stored readily available in you liver. Most estimates are around 1200 calories worth, but to be safe, I figure 800 to 1000 are available.

I can do 600 kj of HIIT, high heart rate, feel the lactate burn... and not eat anything. I can do it first thing in the morning, fasted, and not eat during, and not eat after.

Afterwards, I can I take on 600 cal of carbs. Or.... I can simply refuse to. I can force my body to go get busy reclaiming glycogen from fat. I dunno how slow this process is or how long it takes. But I also am not completely carb free in my diet, so maybe when I eat some fried chicken the carbs in that yummy fatty breading go directly into liver storage as glycogen rather than directly into adipose storage as fat. Or maybe the 100 cal of honey on my triple zero yogurt for lunch does. I don't really know. Honestly, I don't really care. I burn glycogen with HIIT and do not replace all of it. Apparently my body takes care of that problem.

I can also do 2500 kj of endurance without eating. With a good endurance base, a fat adapted body will burn almost all fat while in zone 1 & 2 (and even some zone 3). This is not mere theory. I have done this, and try to repeat it once a week or so. That fat does not burn in a carbohydrate fire. It burns in an aerobic oxygen fire direct in the muscles.

Of course, this requires a solid fitness base. You have to work hard enough, long enough, smart enough, to get that fitness base, before you are able to go burn pure fat on long endurance rides. You have to be fit enough to do the ride in zone 2.

I also do (some, a little) weights and calisthenics. The gym type stuff and the HIIT bike work is to force the body to build muscle and strength. Use the protein to build muscle. the energy needed to do that comes from... glycogen? fat? I dunno, but apparently I have plenty of whatever it needs available because it still gets done while I sleep.

The biggest challenge honestly is fighting off the fridge cravings in the evening. I end up at the fridge with a beer in my hand, or another protein bar in my hand... and I have to ask myself... do I really need this? Am I really (really) hungry? Or am I just bored. Or if I had something to do right now would the hunger just be a background thing?