How does skiing fit in?
 

I got a pair of skis and related kit for my birthday last week. Cross country skiing is unmistakably similar to road cycling. It's an aerobic endurance sport. Being limited (for now) to groomed trails feels a lot like riding skinny tires on pavement. Going fast is fun. Handling a bike or skis through fast turns is fun and rewarding.

I can't be the only cyclist to have noticed this, so I'm hoping some of you can give me advice as a new skier. I'm open to anything anybody wants to share, but I'm especially interested in how people balance this against their riding.

When I lived in Manitoba, many of the cyclists (myself included) cycled when there was no snow, and cross-country skied when there was.

And a few competitive cross-country skiers took up cycling in their "off months" to keep in shape for the skiing.

I've done some XC skiing in hilly terrain long years ago and it was a lot more demanding then road cycling. The ungroomed trails were especially challenging. I don't do it anymore because I am trying to focus more on weightlifting and strength training then endurance.

I was Nordic varsity back in college. I had a road bike then, but didn't ride in winter. We ran on foot a lot as well as on skis, especially in knee deep snow. It's vastly more technically demanding than cycling and uses a lot of upper body and core. That's how XC skiers get those incredible VO2max numbers.

Did you get skate or diagonal gear? I never skated but folks tell me that it's better for cycling. Skate didn't exist back when I ran XC a lot.

XC certainly helped my fitness. In the spring, I had no problem getting my bike up the road.

I mostly ski Alpine now. That was always my first love though I was a much better Nordic skier than I ever was Alpine.

i am a mtn biker who road bikes often to stay in shape for the trails. trails are garbage this time of year, so i replace the mtn biking with nordic skiing, at least that's what i started doing one year ago. same plan this year, i'll ski as often as possible. i will still ride the road for the same reasons i do all summer... also, my "local" ski trails are an hour, or so, away. doing this is a lot of fun and a nice change up from pushing the pedals. i never really looked forward to winter when i lived in a world without snow, but that is no longer the case.

I began a bike ride this morning but aborted within 1/2 mile as there were ice patches on the roads. Headed back home very carefully. My original intention was to ski on back country trails 100 or so miles further north where there was a good snowfall yesterday. I wimped out on this also as I didn't want to drive that far. Actually, I'm loosing my taste for driving anywhere. At present I drive only a few more miles than I drive the car.

I recommend x-country skiing, not only for exercise but for general enjoyment of winter. Winter is beautiful.

Classic. I got a pair of Fischer RCR Crown skis. We bought them in Winthrop and spent a week on the Methow trail system; since then I've been taking them to Cabin Creek by Snoqualmie Pass, because it's got some hilly loops.

I just got back from an hour on the trails. They weren't groomed this morning, so it was more work than normal, and less fun on the down hills. Called it an early day, I'm getting over the cold that's been going around and today was more about enjoying the scenery than anything else. Tomorrow I'm hoping to get a couple moderate hours in and I'd like to ski up and down Ambilis Mountain on Monday.

I feel like this is less work than cycling, maybe that means I'm not putting enough into it? I'm also all agog at the scenery, which might be distracting me from the effort?

Believe it or not, water is kind of a mystery. When I hike, I carry a pack with a filter; when I ride, I don't need water unless I'll be out a while, and I know where all the fountains in town are. I haven't been carrying any, and the cold air is drying me out. And then there's nowhere to get any, snow nibbling just isn't enough. A lot of fast skiers have those fanny pack looking things, I've been wanting to avoid it, but probably need one too.

I'm not the most proficient or experienced on skis, but it is definitely a good sport to throw into your routine if you want to stay outdoors in a Northern winter. Because I really don't want to have to drive 20 miles to a (possibly) crowded park to ski on groomed trails, I bought a pair of backcountry aka touring skis a few years ago - better for the rough and irregular surface conditions of ungroomed suburban paths and streets. Definitely a different feel from the classic style skis I used previously.

Unfortunately skiing conditions here have been terrible for the prior two winters and not great this year. So I haven't really gotten a lot of use out of them or as much experience as I would like with them. First winter was brutal with record deep snow and extreme cold and it was too much - but that was mainly when I got to use them, maybe a dozen times. Last winter almost no snow at all, and when we got it it melted fast. This year, we had a decent snow here mid-December - 36 hours before I had surgery. Recovered enough now - snow is gone, forecast is in the 40s with some rain - it figures!

My take on them - to make an analogy, like a mt bike - you sacrifice some speed for handling and ability to negotiate rough terrain.

Balance - well, the winter I could use them somewhat I didn't ride much at all outdoors because conditions were too harsh even for a fat bike much of the time - 18 to 24 inch snow pack with frozen ice boulders on the roads and giant mountains of shoveled snow at every place a path intersected a plowed surface. Assuming this winter eventually will turn less extreme in either direction, I would probably balance it out as the mood strikes, a mix of each.

Oh yeah - for those years with deep snowpack - snowshoes are a blast! I did a fair amount of that the rough winter when the windchill wasn't -37 or whatever.

Did you buy a Cabin Creek pass? Yes, the double-bottle fanny pack is the thing. XC should pretty well destroy you if you're doing it right, but it takes a while. The Nordic sprint distance is 10k. You can practice the technique on dry land:
For working out on pavement, search Amazon for "nordic walking pole tips"

On skis, it's all about kick and glide. Here's some short video:

fwiw, i wear a camelbak when when skiing, both downhill and cross country. for xc, i sometimes stuff a sandwich in there, snack bars, as well.

It depends on how long you're out...When I did XC my trips would last for 3-4 hours out in a very cold temps plus I was working hard because of hills and ungroomed trails, so bringing a snack and something to drink was a necessity for me. In my experience very cold weather plus physical effort can dehydrate a person just as fast...if not faster then activity in warm weather. A small backpack with some snacks, a vacuum bottle with hot drink and maybe another bottle of sports drink is easy to carry.

Thanks for the advice about water. :D I have to agree, the cold pulls all the moisture out of me.

I did 12 miles today, some loops on lower trails and then halfway up and down Ambilis. That got me 1,926 feet of elevation gain today, and 3 miles of uninterrupted descent with some twists and turns. It wasn't an intense workout, but it was a really nice day outdoors.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1504332709

I know @wolfchild and @Carbonfiberboy take strength training seriously. Maybe one of you has advice for me?

Yesterday I did a long, hilly ski, and did a lot of double poling. Back was sore the rest of the day. I'm guessing those facts are connected. I'm not just pushing through my arms, I'm dropping my upper body and using that force to push off on the poles, then lifting my body up again. Did it a lot. I can tell this is engaging my core, triceps, and back. Core isn't an issue because of years of cycling, triceps are ok because I've been lifting and do a couple exercises to work them. But it seems like I could improve my back strength, unless I'm on the wrong track entirely. Any suggestions for exercises for this?

Those are a portion of your lats that you're feeling. Elites lift their feet completely off the ground when they start a double pole stroke. I'm not an anatomist so I can't give the muscle name exactly. Be that as it may, there are three exercises which helped me:
Horizontal rows: Straight arm pullovers: (She had the best form in the videos I looked at)
Cable and rope work: That last shows mostly skate work but classic isn't that different. You'll find many more Nordic workouts.

The PNW kinda took the Nordic out of me. The snow is usually so bad - this year is a huge exception. And driving to do Nordic is so weird to me. To really do Nordic it's like cycling training: you have to do it almost every day. Step out the door and put your skis on. Unlike cycling, so much of it is skill: ski placement, weight transfer, balance, etc.

So I never noticed that dry land work did much for my skiing. It was the other way around and I'll tell an anecdote about that, just because I'm a little bored. This was back in college. I got in an argument with a football player about how he was so much stronger than I. He challenged me to a game of one-legged knee bends. I whupped him good with 200 off each leg, not on a block though, just the floor. He couldn't believe it. Thing was, I never did them at all in training. That was just from running on skis. The German langlaufen or long-running is better than the verb skiing because it's more like running, except with skills. I think doing one-leggeds on a block is probably counterproductive. Just on the floor might be best. Speed and range of motion.

It is true that on skis, it's all about kick and glide. For more tips (skiing related of course) you might wanna consider checking Outdoor Gear Up. Cheers and have a good one!

I went up and down Ambilis Mountain on Saturday. It was 15.5 miles and about 3,000 feet of elevation gain. There were 5 miles of uninterrupted descent, plenty of turns and switchbacks along the way. I'm getting better and becoming more and more confident in my skills.

I'm also taking to skis like a fish to water.

What's the next step? I've tried downhill skiing at Snoqualmie, the boots feel like a cast, I hate wearing them. I've heard telemark is basically free-heel alpine skiing, is this true? I'd ultimately like to ski in wild mountains. They do heli-skiing in the North Cascades, it's less expensive than you'd think, and I'd love to one day. Obviously not on my skinny skis. Do I want BC Nordic skis as a next step? That would open a lot of west side terrain up, roads like the Mountain Loop, etc. Will it help me get where I want to be?

Here's a photo from Jason Hummel's glacier project. It makes me drool.

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net...-Recovered.jpg

Good job there, Seattle. I'm a little bit envious of your access to snow. Typically I should have it, but, with the weird weather anymore, things are no longer typical.

My skiing this winter has been limited to 0 hours 0 minutes and 0 seconds. When I had ski-able snow, I was recovering from wrist surgery AND had a bad cold at the same time. It all melted around the time I said I was going to be able to get back to winter cycling, as well as other outdoor winter sports.

So, since New Years, it has snowed twice. First time ... less than an inch, about a half-green landscape. Yesterday, we got about 5 inches of wet, heavy snow between 3 am and 8 am. Of course, I had to work. During the day, warmed up to 48, and we had at least half an inch of rain in the evening. By 4 am this morning when I went outside, it was reduced to a few small soggy patches on the lawn.

Oh well, we will see what the rest of January brings.

Seeing as how athletes of the HIGHEST VO2 maxes on the planet are consistently cross country skiiers (and cyclists). I'd say it can only help you in the off season if you are not going to be on a bike.

I've skied on Alpine skis since I was a kid, so when I went BC, I went light AT. I never learned to ski anything difficult with tele turns on my XC skis. Having a little BC experience and watching other people and their equipment, I like this article: The Right Backcountry Ski Gear for YOU:Telemark, Randonnee (AT), Cross-Country and Snowboard Compared | Ultraskier

All that said, if you're starting skiing from zero, heavy XC gear could be what you're looking for. With AT gear, you don't go uphill at all without skins, same with BC tele gear, which is a PITA unless you plan on climbing up something and then skiing down.

And that said, the person in your photo is probably using AT gear. Tele gear in the mountains is a bit rare and XC gear non-existent IME. Note the short poles. Most AT and BC tele folks use adjustable poles and cut the straps off.

If you're planning on BC skiing, join the Mountaineers and take their avy and BC classes. People die out there every winter. It's serious business.

I bought all my AT gear second hand, only the safety equipment new.

Thanks for the link, @Carbonfiberboy. I enjoyed it a great deal. Took me two days to read because I kept stopping to think about and digest the info. It makes a good case for AT over tele, but recommends renting and trying both, which is what I think I'm going to do. I really like the free heel movement on my skinny skis.

It looks like I'm going back to Winthrop next week! I ordered a wheel set through Methow Cycle and Sport, and it arrived. It would be a lot cheaper to just have them shipped to Seattle, but the ski trails are so nice there. :)

Those choices depend a lot of where you live. Like the guy said, loose heel is so much better for travel, but fixed heel is so much better for technical descents. A really typical Cascades BC tour would be Skyline Lake at Stevens Pass. It's an easy skin up a well-packed logging road, then a descent through trees. Many tourers go up the little ridge on the N side of the lake, then descend to the obvious valley to the NE, then the valley back to the highway where they've probably left a car at the old Yodelin ski area a couple miles to the east of Stevens Pass, on the right, big parking area.

Another very popular tour there is to climb from Yodelin to the Well Diggers Ass summit and descend, again through some trees, some logging roads.

But like all real ski tours in the Cascades, I wouldn't do either of these solo. I fractured my skull on a tree above Yodelin, after which I bought a helmet. It is said that the only BC skiers around here who wear helmets are those who've had head injuries. That said, the easy descent through the trees from Skyline Lake to the ski area parking lot is so traveled that it's frequently done solo.

Those tours would give you a good indication of what you'd like in a ski because they're so typical.

Have a great ski in the Methow. Hope the snow's OK. It's supposed to start raining to 8000' on the 17th. Then you'll see what normal Cascades skiing is like. So far the season has been abnormally wonderful. I can't remember an early season with this quality of snow for this long.

Edit: A great and very popular tour, and much better for free-heel skiing is at Mt. Baker. From the Sunrise Lake area, proceed up the obvious flat, lake filled valley to the SW, past Bagley Lake and up to the obvious pass to the west. Options would be to continue down to the lakes or up to Mazama Dome. Another very popular thing is up to Artist Point, then onto Table Mt. and descend its north face. If it's doable, there'll be lots of tracks. This is avalanche terrain, not to be attempted without beacon-probe-shovel. A couple years ago a guy died 6' from the road. Absolutely stunning terrain and very skiable. If you haven't done the ride from Glacier to Artist Point in July, you should.
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1484361273
Us, almost to the Point, in '15.

Saturday was lovely weather and moderate avalanche danger, so I skied from Crystal Springs to Hyak. It wound up being 17 miles, flat as a pancake. Flat ground is a lot more exhausting than rolling hills and even big climbs. I thought it might be, but I thought I had to be wrong. I'm still a little sore today.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/632/3...ef3b22_o_d.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/333/3...26e6a2_o_d.jpg

There's a shuttle in January, so people can ski from Winthrop to Mazama. Long, flat, lovely, and these kinds of endurance trips really appeal to me. But I'm leaning toward playing on some hilly and twisty trails instead, and skiing town to town next year.

Thanks for all the tips!

A couple years ago, a friend and I snowshoed up to Artist Point. It was a great time, but we kept getting passed by skiers who were obviously having a lot more fun. That's how all this started. I've been wanting to go back...

I rode up there a long time ago, it was April, it was a lovely day in the Sound, really warm, and I decided to go for a scenic ride. Parked in Glacier or Maple or somewhere and rode up to the ski area parking where the road was covered in snow. That's when I learned an important lesson about lowland weather being different from up high on the big volcanoes. I'll have to dig up the pics, they aren't as good as yours, visibility was bad that day.

If I want to count ski time as if it were bike time, do I count minutes 1:1 or do I have to do some kind of conversion? I'm a little confused on this. It's a great workout and I usually get the same HR zone breakdown I would for a base season ride, unless I'm going for speed. But I'm using my upper body so much more than on the bike.

Here's a pretty good video to show what's going on.

I use TrainingPeaks for everything. It gives me a heart rate based training stress score (hrTSS) for every activity. Works well for me. Lift skiing is a little weird because it also counts heart beats on the chair. OTOH, HR responds slowly to activity in a conditioned skier so the hrTSS during the DH skiing is probably a good bit low. Seems like it balances out. I get a hrTSS of ~70/hr on the bike and ~40/hr lift skiing.

Training stress is basically about HR which reflects physiologic stress which builds up over time. If one uses a PM on the bike to get a TSS but does many different activities it's harder to get a handle on total training stress. Of course we recover from muscular stress differently than from overall aerobic stress. So sometimes my hrTSS will tell me I'm good to go, but my legs don't have it because I squatted the day before. From gym work, I get a relatively low hrTSS of ~40/hr, about the same as DH skiing or a recovery spin on my rollers. But overall, using a HRM for every activity and then the Dashboard on premium TrainingPeaks gives me a good handle on my fitness and readiness to train.

Of course skiing DH or XC isn't the same training as cycling but who cares? Not I. I train and perform to have fun. It's all fun. My main interest in the training thing is to manage total stress so I get better but don't overcook it and then lose hard-won fitness. And of course cycling doesn't do much for bone strength and for whole body training. Skiing of all sorts is very good for a long and active life, IMO. Skiing helps my riding and vice versa.