DaveQ24 

This is probably more of a rant thread than a serious question, because I already know that the answer to it is "no".

The question is - has anyone had success in reducing weight and building muscle mass on a high carb diet.

I've been on and off for about 5 years working with a RD and a PT, and naturally, they push a high protein diet. My immediate goal is to lose another 10-12 pounds (it was about 10, it went up due to another lapse in judgment last week ) and simultaneously, I'm doing 2 PT sessions of primarily strength training a week (a little supportive cardio thrown in there).

Currently I am supposed to have about 1700 calories, 40 - 30 -30, which works out to 170 grams P, 128 g C, and 57 g Fats.

I HATE most protein-based foods - well, I don't hate them, I like them all, but left to my natural eating patterns, I could go 3-4 weeks without touching beef or pork, probably a week without poultry, eggs. I do a little better with certain dairy products, cottage cheese and Greek yogurt.

OTOH, if I could live on pasta, bagels, popcorn, rice I would be happy.

I'm sitting here eating my nasty lunch of grilled chicken breast on a 6 grams-net-carbs flatbread and wishing it were a bagel with cream cheese.

Heathpack 

what is your lean body weight?

DaveQ24 

You mean goal weight or current weight? -- 160 and 172 respectively. I was down to 152-155 back around 2008-2010, and I actually felt great, but everyone told me I looked too thin.

Or do you mean muscle mass or muscle and bone mass combined?-- I don't know those offhand, but my scale gives me those numbers, I can check when I weigh myself tomorrow.

edited to add this:

Google is my friend. I found the technical definition AND a handy-dandy little online calculator, which spit out this based on 160 lbs:

The Boer Formula Result: 133.8 lbs
The James Formula Result: 136.4 lbs
The Hume Formula Result: 126.2 lbs

Heathpack 

Using a lean body weight of approx. 70 kg, depending on your age, you need around 0.8 gram/kg protein to maintain a neutral nitrogen balance (ie neither gaining nor losing muscle). This works out to 56 gm protein intake per day.


If you want to gain muscle, you need to consume more. How much more is open to debate. If you consume excess protein, the excess will just be used as calories like any other macronutrient, so from a weight loss perspective eating extra protein is a non-issue (there may be other reasons not to eat excess protein, but that conversation is beyond the scope of your questions).


Personally I shoot for an intake of around 1.5 gm protein per kg body weight. For you, this would work out to eating 105 gm protein per day. This would likely be adequate for building muscle. Building muscle is smart from a weight management perspective because muscle is more metabolically active than fat.


You should talk to your nutritionist to understand the rationale behind their protein recommendations. Protein is very satiating, so they may have you eating a lot of protein to help curb hunger. Some nutritionists also believe that certain individuals are very sensitive to weight gain when exposed to carbs and this may well be true, although it is by no means universally so.


For me, I tend to emphasize protein and fat over carbs, mostly because carbs tends to be a craving type of food for me and the less I eat, the less I crave. I can manage hunger better with more fat and protein in my diet. But I still have at least 50% of my daily calories from carbs.


But you won't stick to an eating plan if you don't like the foods on it. So find what you like that you can eat long-term and manage your weight. You may want to scale back carbs but not as dramatically as the nutritionist recommends. Talk to them and take it from there.

DaveQ24 

Thanks. As stated above, mainly my original post was a rant, because I know all of this - however, I would love for someone to come along and (correctly, which ain't gonna happen) tell me to eat all of the carbs I want and cut out the protein.

I'm currently on Registered Dietitian #3 in 5 years. I worked for a couple of years with the first one, who was very nice but also ultra-concerned with "clean eating" and "organic" and "raw ingredients" yada yada yada. #1 and #2 were fully certified RD's, but worked for the gym I belong to. The current one is through the weight loss clinic at a major local hospital - went there in desperation in early 2015 when I topped out at a nasty 205 lbs.

It's basically been the same thing with all of them - meals are a protein, a small serving of lower glycemic index carbs, and some "good" fats.

I actually feel like their recommendations are based on the currently "in vogue" diet trends - if this was 1988, they would probably tell me to cut out all fats, but carbs are OK, and I should try that great new product Olestra. The overall rationale is as you suggest, protein staves off hunger and "burns" slower than carbs so-to-speak, so there aren't large peaks and valleys in blood sugar and insulin production.

Unfortunately, I am an endomorphic body type by nature, with an ability to put on fat (I was up to 225 at one point many years ago - double ) and I do NOT put on muscle mass or keep it easily. I always WANTED to be able to look like the body-builder types at the gym, but that's just not me.

Seattle Forrest

Yes.

Of course it depends how you define "high carb" diet. I eat more grams of carbohydrate than of either protein or fat. I've achieved both of your goals (lose weight, build muscle) on this sort of diet. Not concurrently, though; you can't build much muscle while you're losing weight.

There's nothing inherently fattening about carbs. And they're as important as protein when you build muscle. Less important than protein for preserving muscle tissue while you lose weight though.

Seattle Forrest

Siggi's Icelandic Yogurt has a lot of protein for the calories. I think the small container of raspberry yogurt is 17g protein and 100 kCal. That's a good deal. And a yummy snack.

Halo Top iced cream is something like 25 to 30 g protein and 200 to 250 kCal per pint.

"Nutritional yeast" looks and sounds pretty gross but it's rich in protein and adds a nice flavor to popcorn. Butter is a great adhesive!

Good cheese can have a lot of protein. Trader Joe's has one called Unexpected Cheddar.

Also, a lot of food has small to moderate amounts of protein, and it adds up through the day. You might consider using MyFitnessPal to "audit" your diet for a few days.

Seattle Forrest

You're pretty close. Recomposition is worth thinking about. Basically, eat at maintenance levels (enough to prevent weight loss or gain) and do a progressive resistance program. It's a slow process but you will build muscle and lose fat.

https://bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/

DaveQ24 

All true. I fight my natural propensity to overeat in general, and "cheat" in particular, most of the time. Add in cravings and one of my biggest downfalls, "crimes of opportunity" where things pop up in front of me that I wasn't anticipating and I give in, and I do struggle with it.

DaveQ24 

Thanks again. Siggi's - never heard of that one. I usually buy plain Greek yogurt with the minimum number of ingredients, milk and active cultures, and eat it that way. Halo Top - tried it a couple of times, pretty good but jeesh, $5.79 a PINT. Same for a product called Arctic Zero - about 35 calories per half cup, but also almost $6.00 a pint. Time to dig the ice cream maker out of the cupboard and experiment with my own.

Never considered trying that on popcorn but I'll give it a go.

Cheese -- now that is something I do get behind. Again, easy to overeat because it's calorie-dense.

MFP - use it all the time to track my macros - except of course when I cheat!

DaveQ24 

I really want to get those last 10 pounds off. But I can talk to my guy about something like that, he actually gives me as much, if not more, useful information than the current RD, who I only see for about 10-15 minutes every 3 months.

winston63 

I'm definitely also an example of someone who's lost significant weight with a (relatively) high carb diet. But, I haven't done much to build muscle, though I'm now working on that.

I'm down 40 pounds from a couple of years ago, and I've maintained that weight loss for over a year now. I did lose some muscle mass though - that's not surprising at my age (54) with that degree of weight loss. I'm now doing a some weight bearing exercise in addition to my cycling, and including a bit more protein in my diet but I'm still consuming plenty of carbs.

rubiksoval

So eat carbs. Just keep calories down. Not crazy complex and if you're happier it will be easier.

Carbonfiberboy 

I go by Heathpack's protein recommendation and get a lot of my protein from flavored whey protein. I have a glass of protein in water before every meal. That makes my other macros a non-issue. I can lose weight and not lose size, but more particularly I lose weight and gain strength.

Darth Lefty 

Stop watching commercials for food and pay attention to how you feel, you'll want fiber and turkey more than cake soon enough.

wolfchild

You can look like a bodybuilder but only if your diet and training is correct...but it will never happen by eating 1700 calories per day and avoiding meat, eggs and dairy. To gain muscle you need to be in caloric surplus, to build muscle you need to gain weight and that will include gaining some fat...You just can't gain weight and build muscle without gaining some fat, I don't care what anybody on internet says about it...And yes protein is very important, don't be scared of eating too much protein especially when you are trying to build muscle while keeping fat gain to a minimum.

Salamandrine 

Trainers these days usually recommend low carb higher protein diets. There's some science behind it, but there's a certain amount of trendiness to it. A couple decades ago the same people were harping on about lots of whole grains and low low low fat. That said for your average person today it's pretty good advice, as it works out well if you are mostly sedentary but go to the gym a couple times a week. Protein helps to build and repair muscle, and if you don't use the carbs the extras just turn to fat.

All that said low carb diets are terrible for bike riders. This is a bike forum so I assume you ride? It's an endurance sport and you need the fuel. Ride 400+ miles a week like a high level racer and you can pretty much eat exactly as you describe. In fact you have to... low carb diets combined with bike rides mean you can start to bonk an hour or less into a ride. No fun at all.

If you are like me and really only have time to cycle on the weekends, try doing the low carb thing during the week, but eat some carbs the day(s) before plan to get on a bike.

bruce19

+1

Last year I decided to lose weight by taking carbs out of my diet. Not totally but significantly. Did not lose weight and could barely pedal the bike. Obviously a case of someone who knew little about nutrition and training.

berner

I've just a few weeks ago finished reading a book by a Brit who writes for a running magazine there. He packed up his wife and kids a went to live for six months in Kenya to learn the secrets of their domination of marathon distance events. The village he lived in was populated with an amazing number of world class athletes. They were everywhere. Record holders and winners of every major marathon world wide.

Yes they live at altitude, run and walk everywhere as children, are greatly motivated to succeed and gain the financial rewards, they train hard and often live in training camps. What was surprising was their diet which was the same as everyone's in the village and is high in carbs and based on corn. On the other hand, that diet may not work as well for others. Kenyans are are very slim with slight frames that carry not an extra ounce of weight. Maybe you need to train in Kenya at 7000 feet and live in a village above the Rift Valley as they do.

DaveQ24 

Thanks everyone, all good advice -well, I'm not moving to a 7000 foot altitude, but otherwise ...

As I said initially, I know, mostly just ranting about it, because, well, blech! Unflavored whey protein powder, egg whites, and most meats are nauseating. So then I cheat and eat things I shouldn't.

So, anyway, this is what I'm going to do -- I'm going to up my carbs a bit, but definitely NOT highly refined carbs, and also try to "sneak" protein into things by means of whey protein powder and egg white protein concentrate.

I also really do need to get out more - my ride frequency has really slacked off since last summer, due to various reasons, some of which I've discussed in threads on other boards here. I'm riding, but NOT like I was a couple of years back. Getting back to that pace will help.

Carbonfiberboy 

Try this one: Gold Standard 100% Whey Protein by Optimum Nutrition at Bodybuilding.com - Best Prices on Gold Standard 100% Whey Protein!

I buy it in the 10 lb. bag and find the chocolate flavors highly palatable. Just mix in water a few hours ahead of time as it tastes better cold. I put ~15g in maybe 4 oz. water and knock one of these back before every meal or after a workout.

Heathpack 

Here is a link to a post of mine that has a number of recipes for recovery drinks based on unflavored whey protein isolate. They are carb-pro drinks basically and taste good to me (I'd drink them even if I wasn't trying to recover). My latest thing for the Banana Cream Pie version is to use salted caramel syrup instead of vanilla. I guess I should call that one Bananas Foster recovery drink.

https://www.bikeforums.net/19228428-post3.html

chandltp

Did you gain weight eating those things? If the answer is "yes", it's unlikely you'll be happy while losing weight on those things.

BTW, I've had success losing weight on a High Carb Low Fat (HCLF) diet as well as a Low Carb High Fat (LCHF). The LCHF was definitely an easier way to lose weight due to less blood sugar swings... simply put, I wasn't having to white knuckle through the hunger.

It wasn't the sustainability of either way of eating that caused me to re-gain weight... it was my love of craft beer.
Simply put, when I started drinking it at my goal weight, I gained weight.

That being said, a whole foods diet is seems to be the best for health. One that contains moderate amount of the 3 macros from whole food sources. Let those macros vary based on preferences. You won't be protein deficient with whole foods. Of course this doesn't include a bagel with cream cheese.

DaveQ24 

Third paragraph above, very true.

Second paragraph above, I can relate. My issue is really stress eating, actually. I can stay on track, even with cravings and dissatisfaction of what I'm eating, until something stresses me out, then it's "Oh, to Hell with it" time.

Not sure how to adequately answer your question, because in your first paragraph A) Obviously, I've gained weight, and lost it, a number of times over the years - really it's a perpetual battle with the front lines shifting back and forth. When I am totally off track and gaining weight, it's definitely because I'm giving in to eating things I know I shouldn't - all of those binge foods I like -- it certainly wasn't from broccoli. B) OTOH, my metabolism is such that I lose weight reasonably easily as long as I'm careful about calories AND get in adequate exercise - I could probably drop my last 10 pounds in 6 or 8 weeks if I wanted to stick to 1200 calories a day, upped my cardio, in particular riding and running, EVEN IF I ate almost no protein and stuck to pasta, bread, popcorn, etc. However, the cost would be what others have pointed out, muscle loss, fatigue, hunger.

Believe me, I wish there were easy answers, there aren't. Just have to keep plugging away at it to the best of my imperfect ability.

Rollfast

A bagel with meat and cheese (or tuna) is a valiant attempt though. Absolutes, Schmabsolutes.