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Old 12-06-17, 10:10 PM   #76
Carbonfiberboy 
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Or maybe not . . .

I have responded to this thread in my usual manner: While I may have argued against AIG squats for cycling, I thought, "But what if I'm wrong?" So my wife and I adopted AIG squatting, meaning down to the start of butt wink, watching our backs in the mirror for the point at which they come out of column. And guess what? We both hurt our knees, my wife worse than I. She strained one of her patellar tendons during her 2nd workout with light weights. I've developed a problem with my medial retinaculum. Neither of us ever had a knee problem before.

I'm aware of the argument that we actually ruined our knees doing half squats and are only now seeing the damage. However, my wife is permanently off deep squats. Therapy for her injury is simply doing half squats combined with stretching and it's working. I'm going to persist with deep squats for a while and see if my knee tendons can stretch out over time to allow using some real weight. However at least by March, I'm going to switch back to half squats, hopefully in time to get most of my strength back.

I don't foresee that doing half squats has anything but a positive effect on the aged getting off the toilet seat. I went DH skiing today for the first time this season and took a few runs fast through the bumps. Legs seem to still be functional, though I had some knee pain which I should not have skiing. Had to quit a little early. So if anything, it's the other way 'round.

For all that, we had a good tandem ride this past Sunday, no knee pain for either of us, which shows that full squats are outside the range of motion necessary for effective cycling.

The experiments continue . . .
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Old 12-07-17, 06:40 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Or maybe not . . .

I have responded to this thread in my usual manner: While I may have argued against AIG squats for cycling, I thought, "But what if I'm wrong?" So my wife and I adopted AIG squatting, meaning down to the start of butt wink, watching our backs in the mirror for the point at which they come out of column. And guess what? We both hurt our knees, my wife worse than I. She strained one of her patellar tendons during her 2nd workout with light weights. I've developed a problem with my medial retinaculum. Neither of us ever had a knee problem before.

I'm aware of the argument that we actually ruined our knees doing half squats and are only now seeing the damage. However, my wife is permanently off deep squats. Therapy for her injury is simply doing half squats combined with stretching and it's working. I'm going to persist with deep squats for a while and see if my knee tendons can stretch out over time to allow using some real weight. However at least by March, I'm going to switch back to half squats, hopefully in time to get most of my strength back.

I don't foresee that doing half squats has anything but a positive effect on the aged getting off the toilet seat. I went DH skiing today for the first time this season and took a few runs fast through the bumps. Legs seem to still be functional, though I had some knee pain which I should not have skiing. Had to quit a little early. So if anything, it's the other way 'round.

For all that, we had a good tandem ride this past Sunday, no knee pain for either of us, which shows that full squats are outside the range of motion necessary for effective cycling.

The experiments continue . . .
You said AIG, but I think you meant ATG (Ass To Grass), correct me if I'm wrong.


If you've never done ATG squats before and start out cold, then I can see you hurting your knees. I couldn't do them when I first started, so I slowly worked up to it.

As far as ATG squats helping cycling, I don't know and I don't care. My whole point of doing exercises are to ward off the effects of aging; I want to be totally independent at however old I become.

If all you do are 1/4 or 1/2 squats you're mostly working on your quads; however, when you go deeper, you start to bring in the posterior chain. It's kind of like doing only bicep curls and not working your triceps.

As another poster pointed out, ATG squats are not the only or best thing to work the posterior chain and that's true, so I do other things as well, such as deadlifts, etc...., but doing deep squats still feels right, but you gotta work up to it, since our bodies have become use to being quad dependent.

Look at every thing we do and you see that we avoid using the posterior chain much in life, mostly because we sit at a 90 degree angle and when most people go to sit down or stand up they use their arms to help them, so they just don't have a use for the posterior chain and I do believe that's a big factor in all the knee/back pains/injuries we see.
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Old 12-07-17, 10:55 AM   #78
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You said AIG, but I think you meant ATG (Ass To Grass), correct me if I'm wrong.


If you've never done ATG squats before and start out cold, then I can see you hurting your knees. I couldn't do them when I first started, so I slowly worked up to it.

As far as ATG squats helping cycling, I don't know and I don't care. My whole point of doing exercises are to ward off the effects of aging; I want to be totally independent at however old I become.

If all you do are 1/4 or 1/2 squats you're mostly working on your quads; however, when you go deeper, you start to bring in the posterior chain. It's kind of like doing only bicep curls and not working your triceps.

As another poster pointed out, ATG squats are not the only or best thing to work the posterior chain and that's true, so I do other things as well, such as deadlifts, etc...., but doing deep squats still feels right, but you gotta work up to it, since our bodies have become use to being quad dependent.

Look at every thing we do and you see that we avoid using the posterior chain much in life, mostly because we sit at a 90 degree angle and when most people go to sit down or stand up they use their arms to help them, so they just don't have a use for the posterior chain and I do believe that's a big factor in all the knee/back pains/injuries we see.
That hasn't been my experience with the posterior chain. Moving to ATG squats, I felt little soreness in my posterior chain, just a little in my adductors. However my knees and upper quads were sorer than doing half squats. OTOH, maybe that's because I work my posterior chain a lot with other exercises. Maybe some folks don't which as you point out, would be too bad.

I was trying to point out that the argument that ATG squats won't hurt your knees, whereas half squats will, might just be opposed to the reality of these exercises. Sounds like you might agree with me.

I started out doing no-weight squats for a few days before a mirror to get my form just right, then just the bar, then very gradually added weight, doing three 12 rep sets. I thought that a fairly conservative approach. I use Reebok Lifters, which have a slightly raised heel.
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Old 12-07-17, 01:23 PM   #79
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That hasn't been my experience with the posterior chain. Moving to ATG squats, I felt little soreness in my posterior chain, just a little in my adductors. However my knees and upper quads were sorer than doing half squats. OTOH, maybe that's because I work my posterior chain a lot with other exercises. Maybe some folks don't which as you point out, would be too bad.

I was trying to point out that the argument that ATG squats won't hurt your knees, whereas half squats will, might just be opposed to the reality of these exercises. Sounds like you might agree with me.

I started out doing no-weight squats for a few days before a mirror to get my form just right, then just the bar, then very gradually added weight, doing three 12 rep sets. I thought that a fairly conservative approach. I use Reebok Lifters, which have a slightly raised heel.
I'm not anti-1/4 (or ) squats, my only point was that if that's all one does, than they're not working the back half of their muscles and I believe that's why so many have knee/back issues/pains; I look at partial and full squats as two separate exercises not as something to choose, one over the other. Just as I believe it's foolish to argue over which is better, the front squat or back squat, as if they are the same exercise they are not the same exercise, yet it's an argument that gets heated out there as if they were the same.

I personally don't think partial squats are inherently bad for the knees (as some say), rather it just does not exercise the posterior chain, which is really bad if you're not doing something to address that area; but also full squats are good for maintaining general good of motion especially important as we age.

However, that (at least the posterior chain) doesn't seem to be your problem, since you say you work it a lot. So maybe you're the outlier I don't know...



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Old 12-07-17, 06:15 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Or maybe not . . .

I have responded to this thread in my usual manner: While I may have argued against AIG squats for cycling, I thought, "But what if I'm wrong?" So my wife and I adopted AIG squatting, meaning down to the start of butt wink, watching our backs in the mirror for the point at which they come out of column. And guess what? We both hurt our knees, my wife worse than I. She strained one of her patellar tendons during her 2nd workout with light weights. I've developed a problem with my medial retinaculum. Neither of us ever had a knee problem before.

I'm aware of the argument that we actually ruined our knees doing half squats and are only now seeing the damage. However, my wife is permanently off deep squats. Therapy for her injury is simply doing half squats combined with stretching and it's working. I'm going to persist with deep squats for a while and see if my knee tendons can stretch out over time to allow using some real weight. However at least by March, I'm going to switch back to half squats, hopefully in time to get most of my strength back.

I don't foresee that doing half squats has anything but a positive effect on the aged getting off the toilet seat. I went DH skiing today for the first time this season and took a few runs fast through the bumps. Legs seem to still be functional, though I had some knee pain which I should not have skiing. Had to quit a little early. So if anything, it's the other way 'round.

For all that, we had a good tandem ride this past Sunday, no knee pain for either of us, which shows that full squats are outside the range of motion necessary for effective cycling.

The experiments continue . . .

I am glad you posted this. It's nice when people actually share their personal experiences, it's a lot more interesting then some research article...I've experienced tendonitis in my upper knee between my quads and patella for a few months at the start of this year for the first time in my life. In my case I think it was caused by low reps, grinding out reps and maybe by a little to much frequency and not enough time for recovery.
The interesting thing was that when I started squatting with very light weight for high reps just once per week the tendonitis went away after a few weeks and no more pain. I was doing a high bar squat slightly below parallel...Right now I've decided to just take a little break from barbell squats and I doing double kettlebell squats instead with a lot less weight... Knee tendonitis is such a PITA, it affect daily quality of life too much and can take a long time to heal, I am taking it easy now, I don't want to go through this again.
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Old 12-07-17, 07:22 PM   #81
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I am glad you posted this. It's nice when people actually share their personal experiences, it's a lot more interesting then some research article...I've experienced tendonitis in my upper knee between my quads and patella for a few months at the start of this year for the first time in my life. In my case I think it was caused by low reps, grinding out reps and maybe by a little to much frequency and not enough time for recovery.
The interesting thing was that when I started squatting with very light weight for high reps just once per week the tendonitis went away after a few weeks and no more pain. I was doing a high bar squat slightly below parallel...Right now I've decided to just take a little break from barbell squats and I doing double kettlebell squats instead with a lot less weight... Knee tendonitis is such a PITA, it affect daily quality of life too much and can take a long time to heal, I am taking it easy now, I don't want to go through this again.
Judging from previous issues, my guess is that stretches combined with low weight will fix it over time. So I suggest adding stretches - look at these which I've recommended 100 times at least so you've probably seen them before: https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...l#post15372967

I do the bent knee ones with max knee bend. Interestingly, my wife who has been troubled with calf cramps, can't quite put the backs of her knees on the floor while doing the straight leg stretches.
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