Partial vs. Full Depth Squats
08-25-17, 10:00 AM
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Everything you want to know about squatting: https://www.amazon.com/Starting-Stre...rting+strength
08-25-17, 11:03 AM
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with squatting the way Starting Strength says. But it's not critical that you follow it to the letter either. I wouldn't follow is programming though (and I say that as someone who did for quite some time). For cycling, get your programming information from cyclists.
08-25-17, 11:05 AM
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08-25-17, 11:19 AM
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No doubt he'd read an article about how Froome can't bench 135 and say his coach must suck and how much better Froome would be doing starting strength with GOMAD. Oh, and the only conditioning Froome should be doing is HIIT work because some 6-week study on untrained college kids shows that it's better.
08-25-17, 11:34 AM
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No doubt he'd read an article about how Froome can't bench 135 and say his coach must suck and how much better Froome would be doing starting strength with GOMAD. Oh, and the only conditioning Froome should be doing is HIIT work because some 6-week study on untrained college kids shows that it's better.
08-25-17, 11:48 AM
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Yeah. He is kind of a "one size fits all" guy. But there is no need to go beyond that. I think his instruction for form on basic exercises that many do wrong is very valuable.
08-25-17, 11:50 AM
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There's no guarantee that heavy barbell lifting will benefit cycling performance, except with track sprinting. And there are a number of track sprinters who eschew gym work and do their strength training on the bike. It doesn't take a lot of strength to put out 400 watts, but it takes significant metabolic and cardiovascular capacity to keep it going for many minutes.
08-25-17, 12:13 PM
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Having read SS and a lot of Rippetoe's online articles I get the impression that he has worked with a few track cyclists with mixed results. Steve Hill is a former elite track sprinter in the US and currently a Starting Strength coach. He is another opinionated character who participates on the SS message board.
08-25-17, 12:17 PM
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I'm not sure what part of that statement I tried to pass off as a fact. It was clearly speculation on my part intended only to illustrate his general thoughts on training for sports that he knows nothing about.
08-25-17, 12:25 PM
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There's no guarantee that heavy barbell lifting will benefit cycling performance, except with track sprinting. And there are a number of track sprinters who eschew gym work and do their strength training on the bike. It doesn't take a lot of strength to put out 400 watts, but it takes significant metabolic and cardiovascular capacity to keep it going for many minutes.
08-25-17, 01:42 PM
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True....however there is nothing wrong or bad if a cyclist chooses to do weight lifting in order to get stronger or to look better. There are so many health benefits to weight training and other forms of resistance training that it's almost foolish not to do it.
08-25-17, 03:13 PM
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08-25-17, 03:34 PM
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When I've used his program consistently, I have made substantial gains in strength (at least as measured by how much I can lift). I think it has carried over to biking. Where I live cycling is seasonal. I typically only lift in winter months when I can't cycle. In those years that I lift more than others, I think I'm in better shape when I can ride again.
08-25-17, 03:48 PM
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I have been weightlifting for about 14 years.
I always go ass to grass and additionally as straight down as possible - rather than bending forward at the waist (bending the back.) People do this because it's much easier to bend forward at the back then straight down with the legs.
Bending forward with the back is cheating and allows one to go heavier than they should. A lot of potential for injury. Much better to go lighter weight, ass to grass and push up through the heels.
I always go ass to grass and additionally as straight down as possible - rather than bending forward at the waist (bending the back.) People do this because it's much easier to bend forward at the back then straight down with the legs.
Bending forward with the back is cheating and allows one to go heavier than they should. A lot of potential for injury. Much better to go lighter weight, ass to grass and push up through the heels.
08-27-17, 07:53 AM
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True, but informed speculation based on reading his books and articles as well as conversing with the man on his message board.
Again I'll reiterate: Starting Strength is a fine book and a good one for any beginner to strength training to read. But, I wouldn't recommend following Rippetoe's programming advice if your goal is to excel in a non-strength based sport.
Again I'll reiterate: Starting Strength is a fine book and a good one for any beginner to strength training to read. But, I wouldn't recommend following Rippetoe's programming advice if your goal is to excel in a non-strength based sport.
08-28-17, 05:29 AM
#42
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I have been weightlifting for about 14 years.
I always go ass to grass and additionally as straight down as possible - rather than bending forward at the waist (bending the back.) People do this because it's much easier to bend forward at the back then straight down with the legs.
Bending forward with the back is cheating and allows one to go heavier than they should. A lot of potential for injury. Much better to go lighter weight, ass to grass and push up through the heels.
I always go ass to grass and additionally as straight down as possible - rather than bending forward at the waist (bending the back.) People do this because it's much easier to bend forward at the back then straight down with the legs.
Bending forward with the back is cheating and allows one to go heavier than they should. A lot of potential for injury. Much better to go lighter weight, ass to grass and push up through the heels.
Are you now talking about front squats, high bar back squats, low bar back squats, goblet squats or bodyweight squats? Also are you talking about a person with short legs, long legs, long back, short back, good groin flexibility or no?
'Cause the advice you're giving right now is just outright harmful and potentially dangerous. All of the above factors contribute towards the shape of the squat an individual does. A lowbar squat is going to have more bending forward than a goble squat or a front squat. Likewise some anatomies have a much easier time of achieving a 'straight backed' squat in various bar positions than others. If you're a short legged stubby, bending forwards is likely not necessary even with a lowbar squat. However if you're 6'5" with dang long legs like me my bones get in the way before I can get a straight backed lowbar squat.
I mean just.... Does the concept center of gravity say anything to you?
08-28-17, 08:18 AM
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What the....?
Are you now talking about front squats, high bar back squats, low bar back squats, goblet squats or bodyweight squats? Also are you talking about a person with short legs, long legs, long back, short back, good groin flexibility or no?
'Cause the advice you're giving right now is just outright harmful and potentially dangerous. All of the above factors contribute towards the shape of the squat an individual does. A lowbar squat is going to have more bending forward than a goble squat or a front squat. Likewise some anatomies have a much easier time of achieving a 'straight backed' squat in various bar positions than others. If you're a short legged stubby, bending forwards is likely not necessary even with a lowbar squat. However if you're 6'5" with dang long legs like me my bones get in the way before I can get a straight backed lowbar squat.
I mean just.... Does the concept center of gravity say anything to you?
Are you now talking about front squats, high bar back squats, low bar back squats, goblet squats or bodyweight squats? Also are you talking about a person with short legs, long legs, long back, short back, good groin flexibility or no?
'Cause the advice you're giving right now is just outright harmful and potentially dangerous. All of the above factors contribute towards the shape of the squat an individual does. A lowbar squat is going to have more bending forward than a goble squat or a front squat. Likewise some anatomies have a much easier time of achieving a 'straight backed' squat in various bar positions than others. If you're a short legged stubby, bending forwards is likely not necessary even with a lowbar squat. However if you're 6'5" with dang long legs like me my bones get in the way before I can get a straight backed lowbar squat.
I mean just.... Does the concept center of gravity say anything to you?
Sure some people may have mobility problems and can't go all the way down, but if they can, going down is the most beneficial.
Benefits of ass to grass squat.
08-28-17, 10:45 AM
#44
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I'm talking about the classic barbell squat. And my brother is 6'2" and can squat ass to grass. Height does not prevent you from going low - only mobility problems, injuries and a weak hamstring will.
Sure some people may have mobility problems and can't go all the way down, but if they can, going down is the most beneficial.
Benefits of ass to grass squat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnoaEjvPeBg
Sure some people may have mobility problems and can't go all the way down, but if they can, going down is the most beneficial.
Benefits of ass to grass squat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnoaEjvPeBg
Anyways it's not always about flexibility. I'm 6'5" so your bro is pretty short compared to me. Add that I have long a$$ femurs and what stops me from keeping my torso upright is not tendons or muscles, it's bone on bone contact. I don't think I can train over that obstacle.
Anyways, if you don't know the differences of different barbell squats, maybe refrain from giving advice on weight lifting. Bad advice is always risky business but especially in weight lifting.
08-28-17, 12:32 PM
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Well now we've narrowed it down to either high bar back squat, low bar back squat or front squat. Which one do you mean? Since all of them have pretty different mechanics at play. I'd get your point if you we're talking about front squat and in some instance with a short legged, short femured feller, a high bar back squat, but try doing a low bar squat without bending at the waist. Good luck on the attempt
Anyways it's not always about flexibility. I'm 6'5" so your bro is pretty short compared to me. Add that I have long a$$ femurs and what stops me from keeping my torso upright is not tendons or muscles, it's bone on bone contact. I don't think I can train over that obstacle.
Anyways, if you don't know the differences of different barbell squats, maybe refrain from giving advice on weight lifting. Bad advice is always risky business but especially in weight lifting.
Anyways it's not always about flexibility. I'm 6'5" so your bro is pretty short compared to me. Add that I have long a$$ femurs and what stops me from keeping my torso upright is not tendons or muscles, it's bone on bone contact. I don't think I can train over that obstacle.
Anyways, if you don't know the differences of different barbell squats, maybe refrain from giving advice on weight lifting. Bad advice is always risky business but especially in weight lifting.
Also, contrary to what Boondocksaints says, weak hamstrings won't prevent someone from squatting deep.
08-28-17, 01:23 PM
#46
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Well now we've narrowed it down to either high bar back squat, low bar back squat or front squat. Which one do you mean? Since all of them have pretty different mechanics at play. I'd get your point if you we're talking about front squat and in some instance with a short legged, short femured feller, a high bar back squat, but try doing a low bar squat without bending at the waist. Good luck on the attempt
Anyways it's not always about flexibility. I'm 6'5" so your bro is pretty short compared to me. Add that I have long a$$ femurs and what stops me from keeping my torso upright is not tendons or muscles, it's bone on bone contact. I don't think I can train over that obstacle.
Anyways, if you don't know the differences of different barbell squats, maybe refrain from giving advice on weight lifting. Bad advice is always risky business but especially in weight lifting.
Anyways it's not always about flexibility. I'm 6'5" so your bro is pretty short compared to me. Add that I have long a$$ femurs and what stops me from keeping my torso upright is not tendons or muscles, it's bone on bone contact. I don't think I can train over that obstacle.
Anyways, if you don't know the differences of different barbell squats, maybe refrain from giving advice on weight lifting. Bad advice is always risky business but especially in weight lifting.
That's BS technique. It basically makes a squat into a partial good morning.
I know the difference between different barbell squats, front squats, etc. I don't need condescending posts like yours lecturing me.
Agreed. The amount of forward lean is going to depend on a number of factors as elcruxio stated here. Forward lean isn't an inherently bad thing so long as the back doesn't round.
Also, contrary to what Boondocksaints says, weak hamstrings won't prevent someone from squatting deep.
Also, contrary to what Boondocksaints says, weak hamstrings won't prevent someone from squatting deep.
Forward lean is not as effective and keeping tension on the legs and additionally increases potential for injury.
Yes slight forward lean is inevitable. But I see people doing weight they normally can't handle by forward leaning. I feel if you can't basically do perfect technique going down without bending your back, then one shouldn't do that weight.
Basically like this (vid below). Straight up and down and pushing up through the heels.
08-28-17, 06:00 PM
#47
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Personally I prefer doing high bar squats but it doesn't really matter which one you do. Choose the one you feel more comfortable with. As long as you use proper form, it really makes no difference if you do low bar squat or high bar squat...Front squats is a totally different animal, they require a lot of mobility and flexibility in your whole body. Front squats put a lot less stress on the lower back then a back squat, they are a great alternative for people who have lower back issues and can't do back squats.
08-29-17, 08:02 AM
#48
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I'm talking about excess forward lean during the basic barbell squat. Like in the pic below.
That's BS technique. It basically makes a squat into a partial good morning.
I know the difference between different barbell squats, front squats, etc. I don't need condescending posts like yours lecturing me.
Well we can agree to disagree.
Forward lean is not as effective and keeping tension on the legs and additionally increases potential for injury.
Yes slight forward lean is inevitable. But I see people doing weight they normally can't handle by forward leaning. I feel if you can't basically do perfect technique going down without bending your back, then one shouldn't do that weight.
Basically like this (vid below). Straight up and down and pushing up through the heels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qC1k0Zi6k
That's BS technique. It basically makes a squat into a partial good morning.
I know the difference between different barbell squats, front squats, etc. I don't need condescending posts like yours lecturing me.
Well we can agree to disagree.
Forward lean is not as effective and keeping tension on the legs and additionally increases potential for injury.
Yes slight forward lean is inevitable. But I see people doing weight they normally can't handle by forward leaning. I feel if you can't basically do perfect technique going down without bending your back, then one shouldn't do that weight.
Basically like this (vid below). Straight up and down and pushing up through the heels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qC1k0Zi6k
Now If we dive right into the pictures, I seriously doubt anyone would lift more weight than they are normally able to with the technique described in B picture. This is of course because the bar is forward of the center of gravity of the lifter, meaning you put a couple of plates on that bar and he's going to fall flat on his face.
The A picture is pretty standard high bar squat but I seem to notice some forward bending there. His torso is not at 90 degrees which is weird since I believe you said forward bending is bad and cheating.
The video was actually pretty decent. There were some areas where i disagree like the eye position when squatting, but overall pretty good. However even in the video it was quite clearly stated that different squats have different mechanics and a low bar squat will have more bending forward than a high bar squat.
08-30-17, 07:51 AM
#49
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Hi all,
I am relatively new to the bike but a much more experienced gymrat. Took to cycling as a way to cut off body fat and found that I have the knack for it and am adopting it as my primary sport. A quick scanning over most training plans (Friel, Carmichael et. al) seem to encourage a reasonable amount of weightlifting. No problem! Except.....
Everywhere I read seems to be encouraging only doing squats to partial depth. I understand the idea of adaptation to the bike, but if I'm already comfortably squatting to full depth is there a compelling reason for me to stop? Almost every weightlifter I know is convinced that an element of proper form in the squat is full depth, and mechanically I put more stress on my knees if I don't go all the way. Also IMHO, partial depth is an easy way to pack on more weight than you can handle.
Just wondering if anyone more experienced with resistance training for cycling might have some knowledge they could throw at me here! I'm inclined to keep doing what I'm doing, but if I'm hurting my performance it would be nice to know.
PS: I know there's bound to be some people who are going to tell me to quit lifting in case I get too heavy or musclebound. This is not the question I am asking.
I am relatively new to the bike but a much more experienced gymrat. Took to cycling as a way to cut off body fat and found that I have the knack for it and am adopting it as my primary sport. A quick scanning over most training plans (Friel, Carmichael et. al) seem to encourage a reasonable amount of weightlifting. No problem! Except.....
Everywhere I read seems to be encouraging only doing squats to partial depth. I understand the idea of adaptation to the bike, but if I'm already comfortably squatting to full depth is there a compelling reason for me to stop? Almost every weightlifter I know is convinced that an element of proper form in the squat is full depth, and mechanically I put more stress on my knees if I don't go all the way. Also IMHO, partial depth is an easy way to pack on more weight than you can handle.
Just wondering if anyone more experienced with resistance training for cycling might have some knowledge they could throw at me here! I'm inclined to keep doing what I'm doing, but if I'm hurting my performance it would be nice to know.
PS: I know there's bound to be some people who are going to tell me to quit lifting in case I get too heavy or musclebound. This is not the question I am asking.
Very interesting article on the history of squatting: https://squatuniversity.com/2016/01/...for-the-knees/
10-04-17, 04:56 PM
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https://www.strengthandconditioningre...squats/?s=EMG#
I found this thread asking the same question as the poster. The above article on joint angle specificity of strength gains is interesting.
If one can realize greater strength gains at specific joint angles more relevant to a cyclist and can do so with less hypertrophy wouldn't that be better for a cyclist? It seems to me in theory it would be. I have read and seen videos of Usain Bolt employing partial squats (not full ROM squats).
I am not taking a position in the Squat-ROM-wars. Just asking questions
I found this thread asking the same question as the poster. The above article on joint angle specificity of strength gains is interesting.
If one can realize greater strength gains at specific joint angles more relevant to a cyclist and can do so with less hypertrophy wouldn't that be better for a cyclist? It seems to me in theory it would be. I have read and seen videos of Usain Bolt employing partial squats (not full ROM squats).
I am not taking a position in the Squat-ROM-wars. Just asking questions
Last edited by alm958; 10-04-17 at 05:13 PM.