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Old 10-11-17, 12:20 PM   #26
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I do this too, but I'm not sure that it's the most effective for losing weight. It all depends on what I eat after the exercise, like in the first hour after because it makes you hungry. Sunday afternoon there are chips, fast food, and that beer beckons.
fasted zone 2 rides are probably the easiest way to lose weight, I don't eat for at least another 3 hours after a 1-2 hour base training ride. At low enough intensity you shouldn't need a recovery meal, and shouldn't be ravenous. Whereas a fully fueled interval session requires fueling right after and usually results in overeating if you aren't careful. Of course this all requires training and adaption
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Old 10-11-17, 01:01 PM   #27
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fasted zone 2 rides are probably the easiest way to lose weight, I don't eat for at least another 3 hours after a 1-2 hour base training ride. At low enough intensity you shouldn't need a recovery meal, and shouldn't be ravenous. Whereas a fully fueled interval session requires fueling right after and usually results in overeating if you aren't careful. Of course this all requires training and adaption
Zone 2 and 3 are intensity levels in which you could go for a long, long time. For most beginners this is the way to go. It doesn't trash their bodies that they won't want to do it ever again. For me, this is like walking 5 mph on the TM and watching a good two-hour movie.
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Old 10-11-17, 01:25 PM   #28
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Recomposition means changing your body composition (without changing your weight). It's not simple fat loss, that's just losing weight.

I'm not here to play word games about what under or over weight mean. People can decide what they are for themselves. If you're concerned that you're at the bottom of your weight range, then, obviously, use some common sense, and don't try to lose more weight. I don't know how anybody needed to ask.
Hey, I was just explaining that noglider doesn't necessarily consider himself "underweight" (and neither do I), because you asked why!
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Old 10-11-17, 01:41 PM   #29
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fasted zone 2 rides are probably the easiest way to lose weight, I don't eat for at least another 3 hours after a 1-2 hour base training ride. At low enough intensity you shouldn't need a recovery meal, and shouldn't be ravenous. Whereas a fully fueled interval session requires fueling right after and usually results in overeating if you aren't careful. Of course this all requires training and adaption
I think that it's bound up with the levels of ketones in the blood stream after the fasted Z2 exercise, which is strongly affected by whatever you eat immediately after and for an hour or two. And the general diet of course, but right after is where the chemistry can change.

I am very hungry after 2 or 3 hour zone 2/3 ride, but only for about half an hour. If I don't eat anything during that time, then all is normal in about an hour but if I do (carbs), something switches in the chemistry and I don't think that anything was accomplished as far as fat-burning goes.
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Old 10-11-17, 01:47 PM   #30
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Do you look like Chris Froome?
Assuming that we are not paid to ride professionally, I don't think that @noglider or any of us here need to be that lean. Its Mr Froome's job to perform at that high level. For commuting, I think I have a bit more leeway and actually don't need that level. But that's not to say that I don't need to lose weight. I'm more like Mr Froome plus 75 lbs. I never realized that we're the same height. Sheesh...
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Old 10-11-17, 01:58 PM   #31
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I think that it's bound up with the levels of ketones in the blood stream after the fasted Z2 exercise, which is strongly affected by whatever you eat immediately after and for an hour or two. And the general diet of course, but right after is where the chemistry can change.

I am very hungry after 2 or 3 hour zone 2/3 ride, but only for about half an hour. If I don't eat anything during that time, then all is normal in about an hour but if I do (carbs), something switches in the chemistry and I don't think that anything was accomplished as far as fat-burning goes.
right after, where you've depleted glycogen stores is the key to fat adaption if you are using intermittent fasting. It took me a couple months to get over that ravenous feeling right after the ride, but now its nothing. You can also refuel without any carbs if you have to eat to keep the physiological adaptions to continue.
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Old 10-11-17, 02:00 PM   #32
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Assuming that we are not paid to ride professionally, I don't think that @noglider or any of us here need to be that lean. Its Mr Froome's job to perform at that high level. For commuting, I think I have a bit more leeway and actually don't need that level. But that's not to say that I don't need to lose weight. I'm more like Mr Froome plus 75 lbs. I never realized that we're the same height. Sheesh...
No we don't, and I'm certainly not, but most of us including those that think they are underweight probably have some fat they could spare to lose, and a moderate caloric deficit using some of the points in the article are pretty easy to employ in one's daily life.
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Old 10-11-17, 02:09 PM   #33
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Do you guys have a recommended way to compute total calorie intake? I tried the calorie calculator here:

Calorie Calculator

and got these results (age:49, male, height:6'1", weight:230lbs, moderately active):

Home / Fitness and Health Calculators / Calorie Calculator
Print
Calorie Calculator

Result

You need 3,041 Calories/day to maintain your weight.
3,041
You need 2,541 Calories/day to lose 1 lb per week.
2,541
You need 2,041 Calories/day to lose 2 lb per week.
2,041
You need 3,541 Calories/day to gain 1 lb per week.
3,541
You need 4,041 Calories/day to gain 2 lb per week.

I have used myfitnesspal.com to track the calories in the past. Looks like I'll have to try it again...
4,041

Last edited by ptempel; 10-11-17 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 10-11-17, 02:49 PM   #34
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Do you look like Chris Froome?
No, I look like Tom Reingold.



As @ptempel says, I don't have to be that lean, because my job isn't to win races. I've gone down to my college weight, and I'm super hungry all the time now. I'd like to gain a little muscle mass and am trying by lifting weights. I seem to be getting stronger but not any bigger.
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Old 10-11-17, 03:44 PM   #35
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right after, where you've depleted glycogen stores is the key to fat adaption if you are using intermittent fasting. It took me a couple months to get over that ravenous feeling right after the ride, but now its nothing. You can also refuel without any carbs if you have to eat to keep the physiological adaptions to continue.
I've been doing it for years and I still get hungry after those rides ... although, I get hungry after an easy ride home from work also ...
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Old 10-11-17, 03:48 PM   #36
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I've been doing it for years and I still get hungry after those rides ... although, I get hungry after an easy ride home from work also ...
how long is your overall intermittent fast, and how often(days/week) are you doing it?
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Old 10-11-17, 04:06 PM   #37
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Do you guys have a recommended way to compute total calorie intake? I tried the calorie calculator here:
Use MyFitnessPal to track everything that goes in your mouth. This doesn't have to be for the rest of your life, but a couple months is ideal. Track how your weight changes over that time. If your weight hasn't changed, then your average daily input was what it took to maintain your weight; if your weight went down, or if it went up, do the math. There are 3,500 calories in a pound of fat.
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Old 10-11-17, 04:12 PM   #38
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As @ptempel says, I don't have to be that lean, because my job isn't to win races. I've gone down to my college weight, and I'm super hungry all the time now. I'd like to gain a little muscle mass and am trying by lifting weights. I seem to be getting stronger but not any bigger.
You need three things to put muscle on:
  1. A progressive (that means it gets harder over time) resistance program. Usually this is lifting weights but you could use body weight or resistance bands / TRX if you're determined enough.
  2. Sufficient protein intake, somewhere between 2/3 and 4/5 of a gram per pound of body weight is ideal.
  3. Sufficient carbohydrate.
  4. A calorie surplus.
#4 isn't strictly necessary in all cases, but will make a profound difference in terms of how quickly you can put muscle on.

Muscle is metabolically expensive, to build and to maintain. Your body will only build more if it has to (#1), and has the building blocks it needs (2 & 3) and wants (4).

From the picture, you look too lean for recomp. You would probably be well served by a semi-bulk (think "gaintaining") if your goal is to put muscle on. Be aware you'll gain some fat with it.
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Old 10-11-17, 05:45 PM   #39
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how long is your overall intermittent fast, and how often(days/week) are you doing it?
Me? It's a red herring, because I never eat breakfast period, haven't in decades. The long rides on weekends are generally 50-65 miles, early afternoon without lunch either so I guess 16-18 hours but to me that isn't a "fasted ride"; it's a "regular weekend ride".

Yes, fasted riding can help you lose weight, but my only point is that it does make you hungrier than non-fasted rides, and when you do eat it turns off that "fat-burning" switch in your metabolism, so we're not necessarily doing someone a favor by suggesting it.
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Old 10-11-17, 06:16 PM   #40
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Me? It's a red herring, because I never eat breakfast period, haven't in decades. The long rides on weekends are generally 50-65 miles, early afternoon without lunch either so I guess 16-18 hours but to me that isn't a "fasted ride"; it's a "regular weekend ride".

Yes, fasted riding can help you lose weight, but my only point is that it does make you hungrier than non-fasted rides, and when you do eat it turns off that "fat-burning" switch in your metabolism, so we're not necessarily doing someone a favor by suggesting it.
I guess we are different. I've ridden and commuted many years now, and used to ascribe to the breakfast as the most important meal of the day regime and always ate before I rode. Always got to work hungry still and ate more overall. Now I don't eat for 12-18 hours and don't feel hungry as long as a keep the rides easy. For interval training and weekend A rides a fuel before/during/after however. I've lost 20 lbs this season with the strategy so it can work
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Old 10-11-17, 06:51 PM   #41
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This isn't a thread for teaching Machla how to tell time. But I guess it's a good thing bike shoes come in velcro because I can see not everybody can tie their own shoes.
It's not about telling time ... it's about how silly it is to think that stopping eating at a certain time makes any difference whatsoever.

Your body doesn't care.

Sure ... if you get acid reflux when you lie down to sleep, you might want to stop eating a couple hours before you go to bed (whatever time that may be) ... and you may have other reasons for stopping eating at a certain time in the evening, especially if mindless snacking is a problem for you ... but I can tell you from my experience that I can eat my last evening snack at midnight, and still lose weight. Why? Because it is all about staying within my calorie limit.
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Old 10-11-17, 06:52 PM   #42
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Use MyFitnessPal to track everything that goes in your mouth.
Now this, I agree with.
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Old 10-11-17, 07:48 PM   #43
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Me? It's a red herring, because I never eat breakfast period, haven't in decades. The long rides on weekends are generally 50-65 miles, early afternoon without lunch either so I guess 16-18 hours but to me that isn't a "fasted ride"; it's a "regular weekend ride".
Whenever I travel with the bike, I get up and I'm too excited to ride in nice scenery to want breakfast. Same thing when I ski. Skiing from home means a long drive early in the morning, so no breakfast. But I've never been a big morning eater anyway.
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Old 10-12-17, 07:05 AM   #44
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No, I look like Tom Reingold. As @ptempel says, I don't have to be that lean, because my job isn't to win races. I've gone down to my college weight, and I'm super hungry all the time now. I'd like to gain a little muscle mass and am trying by lifting weights. I seem to be getting stronger but not any bigger.
Looking good there, Tom. I say "keep on keeping on." You must be doing something right. Time for me to get my lazy gleuteus maximus to start using myfitnesspal.com again and take a stab at a 2000 calorie diet like the calculator claims. Then will see if I really lose the 2lbs per week or not. Its sometimes a PITA to estimate the calories for some meals you have. It is what it is...
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Old 10-12-17, 07:13 AM   #45
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Whenever I travel with the bike, I get up and I'm too excited to ride in nice scenery to want breakfast. Same thing when I ski. Skiing from home means a long drive early in the morning, so no breakfast. But I've never been a big morning eater anyway.
I like to only have a cup of coffee when I get up at home. Then I'm only doing 35-40min (~10 mi) in the morning now with the park n' ride. I usually have breakfast after I arrive at work around 9am or so. Finally the same ride back to the car in the afternoon.
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Old 10-12-17, 08:54 AM   #46
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You need three things to put muscle on:
  1. A progressive (that means it gets harder over time) resistance program. Usually this is lifting weights but you could use body weight or resistance bands / TRX if you're determined enough.
  2. Sufficient protein intake, somewhere between 2/3 and 4/5 of a gram per pound of body weight is ideal.
  3. Sufficient carbohydrate.
  4. A calorie surplus.
#4 isn't strictly necessary in all cases, but will make a profound difference in terms of how quickly you can put muscle on.

Muscle is metabolically expensive, to build and to maintain. Your body will only build more if it has to (#1), and has the building blocks it needs (2 & 3) and wants (4).

From the picture, you look too lean for recomp. You would probably be well served by a semi-bulk (think "gaintaining") if your goal is to put muscle on. Be aware you'll gain some fat with it.

Just to at my $0.02 to this very good post...
A big thing most people don't consider is point #4. Muscle doesn't just appear. Your body needs something (food surplus) to build it with. Even elite bodybuilders, who are lifting daily, lose muscle when dieting down for a contest. If you're working out properly and not gaining muscle/weight the answer is usually that you need to eat a bit more (which is easy... just don't follow the advice in the OP's article ).

WRT point #1, the progressive part is key. This is where free weights have a big advantage over other methods. You can easily control/modify the resistance you use buy adding a small amount of weight. The other options are simply less flexible in this regard. That doesn't mean they can't work, but it's just tougher. Particularly with large compound movements where it can be quite difficult to make the exercise hard enough.

The other thing to remember is that in order to make *significant* changes to your body, you have to put in a significant effort. Much like you wouldn't expect someone to make a huge difference in their fitness riding their bike for 30 minutes twice a week, you won't pack on a bunch of muscle without a significant investment of time and effort. Related to this: your body builds, at most, about 1/4 to 1/2 a pound of muscle per week for anyone who is not an absolute beginner. It takes time. For anyone who says they added 30 pounds of muscle over the winter, they're either on drugs, mistaken (and it's mostly fat the added) or lying.
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Old 10-12-17, 09:15 AM   #47
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Thanks for chiming in, @OBoile. I was hoping you might.
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Old 10-12-17, 09:17 AM   #48
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Looking good there, Tom. I say "keep on keeping on." You must be doing something right. Time for me to get my lazy gleuteus maximus to start using myfitnesspal.com again and take a stab at a 2000 calorie diet like the calculator claims. Then will see if I really lose the 2lbs per week or not. Its sometimes a PITA to estimate the calories for some meals you have. It is what it is...
Obviously this is advice and not a command, but don't aim for 2 pounds per week. That's a very aggressive diet and will be hard to stick to. The #1 reason diets fail is adherence. What works in place of diet is lifestyle change, and smaller deficits play into that much better. Also, you'll loose less muscle on a smaller deficit. This is a tortoise and the hare kind of thing.
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Old 10-12-17, 11:54 AM   #49
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This thread is quite informative. You've almost talked me OUT of the idea of building muscle because of all the trouble and expense it requires. But I've been scrawny above the waist all my life, and I'm still thinking I ought to build up at least a little. I realize it requires a lifestyle change, and I am truly ready for that. I've been lifting for a year and a half or so now, so I have some momentum. Thanks for mentioning stronglift 5x5! I've bookmarked it, and I'll be returning to the site. Three workouts a week looks like something I might be able to stick with, and it looks pretty sensible.

I've ridden bike a lot more in the last two years, especially this year. I did a challenge ride last month which seems to have raised my metabolism. I'm super hungry all the time, and I am eating a lot more, but it's a little inconvenient. I have to think further ahead, I have to eat more frequently, as well as eating more. And very soon after eating, I'm so hungry again that I'm almost panicking. I'm eating almost constantly throughout the day. Someone called me a food vacuum.

I never really struggled with my weight. I made one concerted effort (ever) to lose weight a couple of years ago, and I got it off pretty easily.

Thanks everyone.
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Old 10-12-17, 12:36 PM   #50
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@noglider;

A few random thoughts triggered by your post:

Stronglifts 5x5 is a great program. The guy who designed it knows his stuff. When people go to the gym and start lifting, most of them don’t know what they’re doing, and wind up with all kinds of muscle imbalances, which can lead to injury down the line. I see a lot of “bros” in the gym with very developed chests and biceps, and pencil legs. One of the things I like about Stronglifts is that it’s well balanced.

You described having muscular legs but being less so in the torso. This is a controversial opinion but I think it’s ok for you to skip the leg stuff if you want to. Based on what you just described.

If you’re already lifting, then building muscle shouldn’t add trouble, just (maybe) expense.

You talk about being hungry all the time. I can empathize, my doctor put me on a medicine that has “increase appetite, weight gain” listed as side effects. I’m doing a lot of work to prevent that. It isn’t easy. Anyway, protein tends to be really satiating, for almost everyone. That’s a really lucky coincidence. Beyond protein, fats and fiber tend to make people feel full, but how much depends on the individual.
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