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Old 01-14-18, 02:22 AM   #51
Eyedrop
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I started this thread to make sure I was getting enough protein as lost weight. That's all.

By "dieting" I mean watching what I eat - portion control, not eating before bed, cut out some very fatty high calorie foods such as peanut butter and cheese and so forth. Common sense stuff.

By "Calorie restricted" I mean eating an appropriate amount of calories rather than overeating calories, that's all.

I was close to 200 lb on Dec 14 and have lost 12 lb in under 30 days. I just wanted to make sure I was getting enough protein during weight loss. It isn't a big deal and there is no fad diet.


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What makes you think you need more protein? Is it a gut feeling, advice from a doctor, ingrained idea from childhood, etc?

It is of my opinion and many others that trying to "get enough protein" is an old school, over rated worry that many people have. As long as your getting a wide variety of reasonable foods and are consuming an adequate amount of calories, the protein issue will take care of itself. You will be hard pressed to find doctors diagnosing patients with a legitimate medical protein deficiency.

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Old 01-14-18, 05:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I started this thread to make sure I was getting enough protein as lost weight. That's all.

By "dieting" I mean watching what I eat - portion control, not eating before bed, cut out some very fatty high calorie foods such as peanut butter and cheese and so forth. Common sense stuff.

By "Calorie restricted" I mean eating an appropriate amount of calories rather than overeating calories, that's all.

I was close to 200 lb on Dec 14 and have lost 12 lb in under 30 days. I just wanted to make sure I was getting enough protein during weight loss. It isn't a big deal and there is no fad diet.


-Tim-
I'd check with your MD. MOST Americans exceed their protein needs by leaps and bounds. the rare cases I hear of/see with protein deficiencies are typically either caused by a medical disorder or are people on the brink of starvation. as long as you are still including lean protein in your diet you are most likely fine. I will say unless a bunch of it was fluid loss from removing salt from your diet, 12 pounds in 30 days is NOT HEALTHY WEIGHT LOSS!
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Old 01-14-18, 06:47 AM   #53
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I'd check with your MD. MOST Americans exceed their protein needs by leaps and bounds. the rare cases I hear of/see with protein deficiencies are typically either caused by a medical disorder or are people on the brink of starvation. as long as you are still including lean protein in your diet you are most likely fine. I will say unless a bunch of it was fluid loss from removing salt from your diet, 12 pounds in 30 days is NOT HEALTHY WEIGHT LOSS!

Most Americans are also couch potatoes and don't engage in any intense physical activity several times per week, so here you are correct when you say that most people eat too much protein....However there is another side to it. The RDA, daily recommendation for protein intake set out by medical doctors and government bureaucrats are bare minimums required for survival and they are meant for sedentary people who don't engage in vigorous physical activities several times per week....The RDA for protein intake as recommended by your government is way too low for people who are involved in athletic activities... Athletes, especially those who are involved in power sports like weight training, sprinting, interval training and various power activities, endurance athletes need a higher protein intake than sedentary people.
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Old 01-14-18, 07:03 AM   #54
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What is your opinion on my method, and is there anything to add or constructive criticisms that I may be missing?

You asked for opinions and criticism on your method so here it goes... You sound like some radical vegan and I think your personal interpretation of what's healthy and what's not is totally warped and over the top...You're missing out on health benefits of olive oil, (meat in moderation), eggs and full fat yogurt. Add those and it will do you good.
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Old 01-14-18, 07:31 AM   #55
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Most Americans are also couch potatoes and don't engage in any intense physical activity several times per week, so here you are correct when you say that most people eat too much protein....However there is another side to it. The RDA, daily recommendation for protein intake set out by medical doctors and government bureaucrats are bare minimums required for survival and they are meant for sedentary people who don't engage in vigorous physical activities several times per week....The RDA for protein intake as recommended by your government is way too low for people who are involved in athletic activities... Athletes, especially those who are involved in power sports like weight training, sprinting, interval training and various power activities, endurance athletes need a higher protein intake than sedentary people.
I am a medical professional- I do work with dialysis patients who need a super high protein diet, but even athletes often meet their needs without supplementation. and many of my dialysis patients do with just a thought to eating protein at every meal. I'm a dietitian. I won't say there isn't a place for supplements (I use them occasionally- I need protein with breakfast, but with a 45 mile commute I often make a smoothie to drink in the car when I work in Detroit, I use protein powders in those), but for most people they don't have to.. I'm not basing this off RDA, but off medical research and dietary needs identified by medical professionals. There are athletes who have no choice, but I don't get the impression that that is most of the people I've talked to on this board. Most of us aren't riding 100 miles a day for days at a time.. or even 100km/day... I won't argue that athletes need different things than sedentary people, but I do think each persons needs are different and that often we CAN meet them without adding in supplements on a regular basis. I just had this conversation with a bunch of medical professionals and proved that it can be done and done easily. It just takes some smart thinking. Snacks like roasted chickpeas instead of potato chips, edamame, etc...
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Old 01-14-18, 08:07 AM   #56
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What makes you think you need more protein? Is it a gut feeling, advice from a doctor, ingrained idea from childhood, etc?

It is of my opinion and many others that trying to "get enough protein" is an old school, over rated worry that many people have. As long as your getting a wide variety of reasonable foods and are consuming an adequate amount of calories, the protein issue will take care of itself. You will be hard pressed to find doctors diagnosing patients with a legitimate medical protein deficiency.

Think I need more protein are not my words. I never said I thought I was deficient.

I said I want to make sure, that's all. Make sure were my words.


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Old 01-14-18, 08:08 AM   #57
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I'd check with your MD. MOST Americans exceed their protein needs by leaps and bounds. the rare cases I hear of/see with protein deficiencies are typically either caused by a medical disorder or are people on the brink of starvation. as long as you are still including lean protein in your diet you are most likely fine. I will say unless a bunch of it was fluid loss from removing salt from your diet, 12 pounds in 30 days is NOT HEALTHY WEIGHT LOSS!
Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it very much.

Some are making this out to be a big deal. It isn't. It is just a scoop of casein after a particularly hard ride, that's all.

To be clear, there are several on this thread who ride 100 mile/day regularly. I ride metrics frequently including one yesterday.


-Tim-

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Old 01-14-18, 09:15 AM   #58
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Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it very much.

Some are making this out to be a big deal. It isn't. It is just a scoop of casein after a particularly hard ride, that's all.

To be clear, there are several on this thread who ride 100 mile/day regularly. I ride metrics frequently including one yesterday.


-Tim-
I know there are, but I don't automatically assume looking for nutrition advice is because of that amount of riding- thats why I say talk to an RD or MD- both of them should ask for information on exercise, but I also work with 3 marathon plus distance runners (one does 100milers on foot), they may use supplements during a race or on a training day, but otherwise get nutrition from whole foods and one uses nut butter packets with sweeteners in them during/after events... she completely relies on fresh foods for everything in her diet.
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Old 01-14-18, 09:50 AM   #59
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I am a medical professional- I do work with dialysis patients who need a super high protein diet, but even athletes often meet their needs without supplementation. and many of my dialysis patients do with just a thought to eating protein at every meal. I'm a dietitian. I won't say there isn't a place for supplements (I use them occasionally- I need protein with breakfast, but with a 45 mile commute I often make a smoothie to drink in the car when I work in Detroit, I use protein powders in those), but for most people they don't have to.. I'm not basing this off RDA, but off medical research and dietary needs identified by medical professionals. There are athletes who have no choice, but I don't get the impression that that is most of the people I've talked to on this board. Most of us aren't riding 100 miles a day for days at a time.. or even 100km/day... I won't argue that athletes need different things than sedentary people, but I do think each persons needs are different and that often we CAN meet them without adding in supplements on a regular basis. I just had this conversation with a bunch of medical professionals and proved that it can be done and done easily. It just takes some smart thinking. Snacks like roasted chickpeas instead of potato chips, edamame, etc...

I absolutely agree with you that protein supplements are not an absolute necessity...Personally I get majority of my daily protein intake from real food...The only time I use protein powder is after a strength/conditioning workout or during/after an intense bike ride...I also mix protein powder with other ingredients to make a high calorie smoothie which I take to work with me...I always believed that calories from solid food are better and healthier than liquid calories...however there are times and circumstances where liquid calories can be more practical and convenient. As long as liquid calories are kept in moderation it's ok.
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Old 01-14-18, 10:29 AM   #60
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You asked for opinions and criticism on your method so here it goes... You sound like some radical vegan and I think your personal interpretation of what's healthy and what's not is totally warped and over the top...You're missing out on health benefits of olive oil, (meat in moderation), eggs and full fat yogurt. Add those and it will do you good.
I understand the point your trying to make, and I appreciate you meaning well. Ive done alot of digging around the past 6 years, and my stance is that yes olive oil has healthy fats, and eggs/meat/dairy are very high quality complete protein. Nobody refutes that.

BUT, there is also a startling amount of evidence that oils and animal products can carry health risks along with their benefits. You will be hard pressed to find evidence that whole plant foods do the same.

So in my opinion, if I can meet my nutritional needs (including protein and fats) to a high level on a plant based diet (not all that hard to execute and live with) I will choose that rather than take the health risks or support the suffering and death of animals. I just find it archaic and unnecessary. I can get all the same benefits that animal products provide, plus some.

I dont find anything radical about that, but I suppose it depends on the perspective you look at it.

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Old 01-14-18, 03:07 PM   #61
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When it comes down to the "how much protein do I need?" question, I always defer to the Lemon study. In the athletes they studied, any protein consumed over about 1.8g/kg (0.8g/lb) of body mass was just excreted.
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Old 01-14-18, 07:41 PM   #62
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I understand the point your trying to make, and I appreciate you meaning well. Ive done alot of digging around the past 6 years, and my stance is that yes olive oil has healthy fats, and eggs/meat/dairy are very high quality complete protein. Nobody refutes that.

BUT, there is also a startling amount of evidence that oils and animal products can carry health risks along with their benefits. You will be hard pressed to find evidence that whole plant foods do the same.

So in my opinion, if I can meet my nutritional needs (including protein and fats) to a high level on a plant based diet (not all that hard to execute and live with) I will choose that rather than take the health risks or support the suffering and death of animals. I just find it archaic and unnecessary. I can get all the same benefits that animal products provide, plus some.

I dont find anything radical about that, but I suppose it depends on the perspective you look at it.

What you describe is not radical. It is, in fact, a very ancient practice.

I am loosely affiliated with a Trappist monastery and the monks don't eat meat unless they are on an infirm diet. Fish and eggs are OK but no chicken, beef, pork, etc. Benedictine monastics under the rule of St. Benedict have been living this way since the fifth century.

The monks at the monastery all live into their 80's and many live past 100. It is a very balanced, peaceful life, free of stress to the extent that it is possible and free of the "White poisons" such as white bread, refined sugar, etc.

I have been trying to eat less meat and that is one of the reasons why I asked about protein supplement in the first place. You post is relevant to this. Thank you for bringing it up.


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Old 01-15-18, 03:34 AM   #63
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My concern is getting too much protein, and I am a vegan. I don't believe I have met anyone suffering from a protein deficiency, which is basically starvation, other than acouple of anorexics and end stage cancer patients.
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Old 01-15-18, 10:00 AM   #64
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What makes you think you need more protein? Is it a gut feeling, advice from a doctor, ingrained idea from childhood, etc?

It is of my opinion and many others that trying to "get enough protein" is an old school, over rated worry that many people have. As long as your getting a wide variety of reasonable foods and are consuming an adequate amount of calories, the protein issue will take care of itself. You will be hard pressed to find doctors diagnosing patients with a legitimate medical protein deficiency.
This being the training and nutrition sub-forum on a bicycling site, I don't think avoiding legitimate medical protein deficiency should be the goal. Athletic performance should be. Which means we should be consuming more nutrition than we need for survival.
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Old 01-15-18, 10:28 AM   #65
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I understand the point your trying to make, and I appreciate you meaning well. Ive done alot of digging around the past 6 years, and my stance is that yes olive oil has healthy fats, and eggs/meat/dairy are very high quality complete protein. Nobody refutes that.

BUT, there is also a startling amount of evidence that oils and animal products can carry health risks along with their benefits. You will be hard pressed to find evidence that whole plant foods do the same.

So in my opinion, if I can meet my nutritional needs (including protein and fats) to a high level on a plant based diet (not all that hard to execute and live with) I will choose that rather than take the health risks or support the suffering and death of animals. I just find it archaic and unnecessary. I can get all the same benefits that animal products provide, plus some.

I dont find anything radical about that, but I suppose it depends on the perspective you look at it.
I find, the only people who think "animal products" are inherently unhealthy (or, to use your words that there is a "startling amount of evidence" that they carry health risks) are radical vegans.

If you want to reduce animal suffering, fine. That's very noble of you. But please don't give us that BS that being vegan offers inherent health or performance benefits over a healthy omnivorous diet. It doesn't.
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Old 01-15-18, 05:55 PM   #66
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What you describe is not radical. It is, in fact, a very ancient practice.

I am loosely affiliated with a Trappist monastery and the monks don't eat meat unless they are on an infirm diet. Fish and eggs are OK but no chicken, beef, pork, etc. Benedictine monastics under the rule of St. Benedict have been living this way since the fifth century.

The monks at the monastery all live into their 80's and many live past 100. It is a very balanced, peaceful life, free of stress to the extent that it is possible and free of the "White poisons" such as white bread, refined sugar, etc.

I have been trying to eat less meat and that is one of the reasons why I asked about protein supplement in the first place. You post is relevant to this. Thank you for bringing it up.


-Tim-
I've been beating the creatine drum lately, and I don't want to annoy you with it. I'm a little enthusiastic about the stuff because of the results I'm getting from it.

Based on what you've written, I think you may benefit from the stuff, too.

People get creatine naturally from eating meat. Some people respond to creatine more than others. Based on talking to some people at the bike and ski shops and in the gym, it seems like the people who get the most benefit are vegetarians - which makes sense because we're the people who don't get it from our diets. If you're making a concerted effort to eat less meat, your creatine levels will probably go down as a result, and supplementation may benefit you.
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Old 01-15-18, 06:01 PM   #67
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I find, the only people who think "animal products" are inherently unhealthy (or, to use your words that there is a "startling amount of evidence" that they carry health risks) are radical vegans.
As far as I know (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there's no legitimate evidence that anything sold as food in the first world is harmful to healthy people if you eat it in appropriate amounts. Meat, saccharine, high fructose corn syrup, any GMO product, etc.

I don't necessarily trust that all of the tests have been run, but I do trust that if we figure out something is dangerous, we pull it from the market.
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Old 01-15-18, 06:12 PM   #68
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People get creatine naturally from eating meat.


The amount of creatine in meat is a lot smaller than you think. You would have to eat a little over 2 pounds of meat every day just to get the 5 grams of creatine which is a daily recommended dose for creatine supplements...I am not even close to that amount of meat. I only eat at most about 250-300 grams of meat once per day...That's why I want to start creatine supplementation just to see if it actually works for me.

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Old 01-15-18, 06:17 PM   #69
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As far as I know (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there's no legitimate evidence that anything sold as food in the first world is harmful to healthy people if you eat it in appropriate amounts.

Actually, I estimate that at least 70% of food products at most grocery stores is heavily processed and adulterated garbage sold as food, with almost no nutritional value.
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Old 01-15-18, 06:49 PM   #70
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I find the idea of needing to increase protein odd. My huge cycling gains came when I started monitoring my diet to reduce protein to improve recovery. (Recovery - sending oxygen-rich blood to the muscles that have been torn down in training.) I read that large, protein-rich meals divert that blood to the stomach for hours, depriving the muscles in the process. Observations of my body have always appeared to confirm that. I don't sweat my protein intake. I just do my best to eat wholesome foods. Whole grains, legumes, a little high-fat Omega-3 rich fish, moderate yogurt and cheese (simply because I love both and live where very good ones are in every store). Lots of fruit and vegetables. Life is good when I eat well.

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Old 01-15-18, 06:52 PM   #71
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As far as I know (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there's no legitimate evidence that anything sold as food in the first world is harmful to healthy people if you eat it in appropriate amounts. Meat, saccharine, high fructose corn syrup, any GMO product, etc.

I don't necessarily trust that all of the tests have been run, but I do trust that if we figure out something is dangerous, we pull it from the market.
I find for myself, the less I eat of all the items you listed above, the better I feel and the higher quality my life is. I won't argue your point but I will do my best to steer clear.

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Old 01-15-18, 07:08 PM   #72
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The amount of creatine in meat is a lot smaller than you think. You would have to eat a little over 2 pounds of meat every day just to get the 5 grams of creatine which is a daily recommended dose for creatine supplements...I am not even close to that amount of meat. I only eat at most about 250-300 grams of meat once per day...That's why I want to start creatine supplementation just to see if it actually works for me.
Thanks for posting this. Seems to blow my theory.
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Old 01-16-18, 07:46 AM   #73
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As far as I know (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) there's no legitimate evidence that anything sold as food in the first world is harmful to healthy people if you eat it in appropriate amounts. Meat, saccharine, high fructose corn syrup, any GMO product, etc.

I don't necessarily trust that all of the tests have been run, but I do trust that if we figure out something is dangerous, we pull it from the market.
Yes. I think a lot of people hear the message "most people eat too much <insert 'bad' food here>" and assume that means the appropriate amount to eat is none.
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Old 01-16-18, 07:50 AM   #74
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Thanks for posting this. Seems to blow my theory.
I think there is still some validity to it. A typical meat eater may not be getting 5g a day (although many strength athletes would easily consume 2 lbs of meat in a day). But, if creatine follows the law of diminishing returns, it's likely that a majority of the benefits are from the first couple of grams consumed. Removing a deficiency is likely doing more than making sure the tank is topped up.
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Old 01-16-18, 04:06 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Thanks for posting this. Seems to blow my theory.

It all depends on how much meat or fish a person is eating. With the amount of meat I eat right now, my estimate is that I am getting about 1-1.2 grams of creatine per serving. That's a lot less then a 5 grams from supplements but at least it's something. If I do that 7 days per week it's more than enough to keep my creatine tank filled up and help the body to synthesize more creatine naturally.
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