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Old 01-12-18, 03:31 PM   #26
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Any excuse to enjoy chocolate is a good thing. One of my favorite Mexican mole sauces contains unsweetened chocolate. Sounds like an odd combination but it's delicious on chicken, enchiladas and other dishes.
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Old 01-12-18, 04:00 PM   #27
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I'm also taking a "men's" multivitamin. Not made by hippies (that I know of), but USP-certified. I try to eat a well-balanced diet with whole grains, fruits, and veggies everyday, so my hope is that there aren't many gaps to fill. I haven't verified that I'm not pooping the vitamin pills out whole, so their efficacy is something of a question mark.

In addition, I try to take a fish oil cap everyday. I only eat fish on occasion, so I wouldn't be surprised if my Omega-3 intake is lower than ideal most of the time. There again, I can't point to any differences felt when I take it for a while, or go on a streak of forgetting it.
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Old 01-12-18, 08:47 PM   #28
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Do my supplements help? So my wife and I were doing a short whole-body weight workout at the gym yesterday. One of the trainers was watching us. After I finished my bench set, he came over and asked me my age. I said 72 and he said, "You're the strongest person your age I've ever seen. I've never been able to train a guy your age to do what you do." I was flabbergasted. Yeah, so his view is pretty limited, though some very strong people train at our gym, but the thing is, I'm NOTHING. Zip for talent. It's all been "just training." And maybe my supplements help me train harder, more frequently. It is noticeable to me that I can get more wrecked training than I used to before I started some of these particular supplements. Pumping out 2 more reps is not a neutral activity. It means I'm going to hurt more tomorrow. That's what's noticeable, since it's impossible to notice the extra 2 reps.

Since I don't have to ride against any of you, I'd encourage trying out some of that stuff, see if you notice anything.
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Old 01-12-18, 09:11 PM   #29
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^^

Not trying to challenge. Sincerely asking.

Were either of your parents or grandparents particularly virile as they aged? I wonder if you weren't blessed with being born at the deep end of the gene pool.


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Old 01-13-18, 12:30 AM   #30
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^^

Not trying to challenge. Sincerely asking.

Were either of your parents or grandparents particularly virile as they aged? I wonder if you weren't blessed with being born at the deep end of the gene pool.


-Tim-
My mom, totally not athletic, but plenty female. I never really knew my father, but he did have 10 wives. "Some people have to marry everyone." Yeah, he was probably pretty virile, a good early match. My older brother once broke out all the windows in his car with a fire axe, over a romantic issue. Even in America! But my aerobic ability was always terrible. The month I joined the Army, I hiked 300 miles, yet I almost had to repeat Basic because I had trouble breaking an 8 minute mile. Except for the handicapped guy, I was the slowest guy in the platoon. It took me years to be able to keep up with the guys in my group ride. And as I've said before, it's almost impossible for me to put on protein. A pound a year is good for me. OTOH, that is actually a cycling talent, so I do have that. My mom made it to 92 and died essentially from osteoporosis, though in dementia. Looks like I'm headed there too, eh?
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Old 01-13-18, 08:13 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Do my supplements help? So my wife and I were doing a short whole-body weight workout at the gym yesterday. One of the trainers was watching us. After I finished my bench set, he came over and asked me my age. I said 72 and he said, "You're the strongest person your age I've ever seen. I've never been able to train a guy your age to do what you do." I was flabbergasted. Yeah, so his view is pretty limited, though some very strong people train at our gym, but the thing is, I'm NOTHING. Zip for talent. It's all been "just training." And maybe my supplements help me train harder, more frequently. It is noticeable to me that I can get more wrecked training than I used to before I started some of these particular supplements. Pumping out 2 more reps is not a neutral activity. It means I'm going to hurt more tomorrow. That's what's noticeable, since it's impossible to notice the extra 2 reps.

Since I don't have to ride against any of you, I'd encourage trying out some of that stuff, see if you notice anything.

This is one of my concerns. I have already wrecked myself too many times by working out too hard without taking any performance enhancing supplements. My worry is, if I start taking something it may cause me to go even harder and injure myself. Let be real, injuries suck... Now I've learned to listen to my body a little more and I train differently... I train just hard enough to stimulate and keep progressing and maintain my fitness but I don't annihilate and destroy myself like I used to. Spending 3 days in recovery after a hard workout is not an option for me, I want to be at my best daily without being hindered by recovery. One of the questions I have is, is it really healthy to use supplements to increase what your body can produce naturally ??.. Very high level athletic performance comes at a cost and that cost is almost always some injury or some health related problem, that's why majority of pro athletes who perform at a high level retire at a young age.
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Old 01-13-18, 08:47 AM   #32
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Every morning I take a small glass of 100% beet juice. Since starting this regime my blood pressure dropped from 155/90 to 130/80. Which is why I started taking it.
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Old 01-13-18, 08:50 AM   #33
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One of the questions I have is, is it really healthy to use supplements to increase what your body can produce naturally ??..
There are no supplements that do that (save for something like Vitamin D or melatonin, which aren't performance-enhancing). Stuff your body makes, like testosterone, hgh, etc., are clearly illegal drugs (or medically-necessary, depending on purpose).
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Old 01-13-18, 10:24 AM   #34
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Every morning I take a small glass of 100% beet juice. Since starting this regime my blood pressure dropped from 155/90 to 130/80. Which is why I started taking it.
Do you use powder or actual juice?

MY BP has been creeping up (I am already on a heafty dose of meds) and before my doc suggests adding another med, I am going to try the beet juice thing. I looked at some of the published literature and there is evidence dietary nitrates lower both systolic and diastolic pressure. So, I am open minded.

I went to several grocery stores and did not find any beet juice. When I went to the health food store I did find a No2 supplement and I have started taking that. My understanding is that the nitrates in beet juice breakdown into No2 and those are vasodilators. The no2 supplement is marketed as an "energy booster" but my interest is in its effects on BP.

I plan to give it a try for a month or so. It is pricey at about $35 for a months supply. I am thinking beet root juice might be a better option if I can find a powder or actual juice.
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Old 01-13-18, 10:43 AM   #35
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I use 100% beet juice not the powder although I am told the powder works too. I was prescribed a beta blocker by my MD. It damn near killed me. It basically acts like a car governor on your heart. You just can't make any efforts. You can imagine what it was like trying to do a 50 mi. club ride. And, I got really depressed. A fellow cyclist is a Naturopathic Doctor. She advised beet juice and it worked.
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Old 01-13-18, 11:56 AM   #36
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I use 100% beet juice not the powder although I am told the powder works too. I was prescribed a beta blocker by my MD. It damn near killed me. It basically acts like a car governor on your heart. You just can't make any efforts. You can imagine what it was like trying to do a 50 mi. club ride. And, I got really depressed. A fellow cyclist is a Naturopathic Doctor. She advised beet juice and it worked.
Not to derail the thread, but I feel your pain. I have been taking a beta blocker (carvedilol) since my first heart attack. Working with my cardiologist, I have lowered the dose over time so that I take 6.25x2 now. I have adapted some, but on those days when I am doing a longer or harder rides I either delay taking it or skip the morning dose. On those days, I can feel the performance boost. Since my cardiologist started cycling he has a better appreciation for my concern about lowering the beta blocker dose as much as possible, but it looks as if it will be a lifelong med for me and I have to work with how it effects cycling.

I do take Coq10 to counter the effects of a statin, but otherwise I am thinking about the beta alanine forharder rides.....
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Old 01-13-18, 12:22 PM   #37
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There are no supplements that do that (save for something like Vitamin D or melatonin, which aren't performance-enhancing). Stuff your body makes, like testosterone, hgh, etc., are clearly illegal drugs (or medically-necessary, depending on purpose).
I dislike disagreeing with you, but . . .Actually there are performance-enhancing supplements that are the same as what your body produces:
Creatine
CoQ10
various NO2 substrates

or may be less than optimally available in the diet:
Carnosine/Carnitine
Arginine
Whey protein
B-12
various NO2 substrates

I'm sure there are many more. AFAIK, these supplements may not immediately enhance performance by increasing cycling power output, which may have been what you meant. Rather they improve performance by increasing endurance, recovery, or RBC levels which in the long term are a part of performance and which will, with proper training, eventually increase power output. NO2 substrates are particularly interesting. Some supplements increase the body's ability to produce various substrates, others directly increase those substrates.

And OTOH, even EPO doesn't immediately increase power output. RBCs have to be created and matured before much happens, and exogenous EPO may need iron and B-12 supplementation to be optimally effective.
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Old 01-13-18, 12:50 PM   #38
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Every morning I take a small glass of 100% beet juice. Since starting this regime my blood pressure dropped from 155/90 to 130/80. Which is why I started taking it.
I enjoy beet salad with apple cider vinegar. The cardiovascular benefits (like BP) are very profound. The ACV just aids in the beneficial factors, muscle recovery and better than any Viagra a doctor can prescribe.
Nitric oxide is the key and allows super oxygenated blood to power your body, more than just muscle but mind too.
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Old 01-13-18, 01:06 PM   #39
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Not to derail the thread, but I feel your pain. I have been taking a beta blocker (carvedilol) since my first heart attack. Working with my cardiologist, I have lowered the dose over time so that I take 6.25x2 now. I have adapted some, but on those days when I am doing a longer or harder rides I either delay taking it or skip the morning dose. On those days, I can feel the performance boost. Since my cardiologist started cycling he has a better appreciation for my concern about lowering the beta blocker dose as much as possible, but it looks as if it will be a lifelong med for me and I have to work with how it effects cycling.

I do take Coq10 to counter the effects of a statin, but otherwise I am thinking about the beta alanine forharder rides.....
Beta alanine, citrulline malate, and 1/8 t. of potassium nitrate (or lots of beet juice). For BP, you're supposed to drink up to 24 oz. of beet juice every day:

https://www.everydayhealth.com/colum...-stiff-hearts/
Quote:
The most dramatic insight of this study was that after one week of consuming beet juice, participants' exercise capacity measured in watts increased by 24 percent (from 363 W to 449 W)
https://examine.com/supplements/beet-root/
Quote:
Beetroot tends to be dosed on the nitrate contend, with around 0.1-0.2mmol/kg (6.4-12.8mg/kg) being the target for nitrate. This is about 436mg for a 150lb person, which is comparable to half a kilogram (500g) of the beetroots themselves (wet weight).
For the paupers among us, potassium nitrate is 61% nitrate by weight. For a 436mg dose if nitrate, that comes out to 715mg of KNO3 (potassium nitrate). One teaspoon of KNO3 weighs 6g, so 1/8 t. is about that dose. Food grade KNO3 is available in bulk and very inexpensive.
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Old 01-13-18, 01:35 PM   #40
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I dislike disagreeing with you, but . . .Actually there are performance-enhancing supplements that are the same as what your body produces:
Creatine
CoQ10
various NO2 substrates
I'll go with the research on this one.

There is nothing ergogenic/performance-enhancing that you can take that is not illegal, save for caffeine and possibly beta-alanine.

If it were, every one would be on it (and so would WADA).
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Old 01-13-18, 01:38 PM   #41
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I'll go with the research on this one.

There is nothing ergogenic/performance-enhancing that you can take that is not illegal, save for caffeine and possibly beta-alanine.

If it were, every one would be on it (and so would WADA).
Then do your research. You don't notice the beet-root thing? 24% power increase? And yes, the pros all use this stuff. It's not illegal because it's all exogenous, i.e. food. So they'll cite someone for excessive beet-eating?
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Old 01-13-18, 01:45 PM   #42
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Then do your research. You don't notice the beet-root thing? 24% power increase? And yes, the pros all use this stuff. It's not illegal because it's all exogenous, i.e. food. So they'll cite someone for excessive beet-eating?
Ah, yes, 24% increase in power.

So a 400w threshold becomes 500, and 5 mins at 7w/kg becomes nearly 10?

I guess that beet juice is mixed in with some pretty good kool-ade.
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Old 01-13-18, 01:45 PM   #43
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This is one of my concerns. I have already wrecked myself too many times by working out too hard without taking any performance enhancing supplements. My worry is, if I start taking something it may cause me to go even harder and injure myself. Let be real, injuries suck... Now I've learned to listen to my body a little more and I train differently... I train just hard enough to stimulate and keep progressing and maintain my fitness but I don't annihilate and destroy myself like I used to. Spending 3 days in recovery after a hard workout is not an option for me, I want to be at my best daily without being hindered by recovery. One of the questions I have is, is it really healthy to use supplements to increase what your body can produce naturally ??.. Very high level athletic performance comes at a cost and that cost is almost always some injury or some health related problem, that's why majority of pro athletes who perform at a high level retire at a young age.
They retire when they're no longer competitive. There are lots of age-groupers. The oldest Kona finisher so far was 81. The theory of training is supercompensation: you go so hard that you need to recover. After your recovery, you experience supercompensation, i.e. you're stronger, faster, whatever. As it is said, one gets stronger when one rests. Getting stronger prevents injury and can also lead to injury. Finding one's way through that thicket is pretty much the whole trick to self-coached training. We each have to come up with our own methods. It's good that you've found yours.
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Old 01-13-18, 02:21 PM   #44
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Ah, yes, 24% increase in power.

So a 400w threshold becomes 500, and 5 mins at 7w/kg becomes nearly 10?

I guess that beet juice is mixed in with some pretty good kool-ade.
True, that 24% was a geezer study, folks younger than I but who had issues. Still. How about this one: Nitrate Supplementation’s Improvement
of 10-km Time-Trial Performance in Trained Cyclists


An average of 6 watts up after 6 days of juicing is not too bad. The study showed a number of other improvements. Pretty interesting study.
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Old 01-13-18, 03:35 PM   #45
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I don't doubt that some supplements can correct nutritional imbalances and improve health if that person is deficient in certain nutrients...As far as athletic performance increases, PEDs is the only thing that really has been proven to work.
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Old 01-13-18, 04:15 PM   #46
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I don't doubt that some supplements can correct nutritional imbalances and improve health if that person is deficient in certain nutrients...
This is what I was thinking of when I used the word "supplement" in the title.

I understand that performance enhancement is another aspect of supplements but for me personally, that is not my intent. I am what I am, the way God made me.

Better health, or preventing a health problem in the first place is my main goal. Anything else is secondary.


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Old 01-13-18, 04:44 PM   #47
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Creatine has been proven in dozens of studies to improve athletic performance, many of those studies were among cyclists.

I did a lot of research before deciding to take the stuff.
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Old 01-13-18, 06:03 PM   #48
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Ugh... the way I'm feeling lately I think the best supplement I could take is Armour thyroid. The synthetic thyroid supplements just don't seem to be working. Still feeling really run down but I'm not sick. Feels like a relapse of the thyroid deficiency I got smacked with every few years (I have Hashimoto's, a pesky autoimmune disorder but not particularly serious).

Reportedly the natural Armour thyroid (made from pig thyroids) is more effective. Even an otherwise vegan friend takes Armour thyroid because nothing else worked for her.

I doubt I'll see much benefit from the creatine supplements I'm taking until the thyroid thing is sorted out. But I'll keep taking the creatine after workouts. Can't hurt.

Anyway, just throwing that out there in case anyone else experiences similar symptoms. As we age the thyroid can get wonky and needs a little help. Mine are swollen like golf balls so it's pretty noticeable. For most folks it's harder to spot and you need discuss the symptoms with a doctor.
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Old 01-14-18, 09:39 AM   #49
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Based on this paper I am willing to give the Kno3 a try, probably just buying premade capsules to start. Whether it is beet root juice or some other source of inorganic nitrate, there seems to be evidence that it has benefits, including BP reduction. The capsules are less costly than the no2 supplement I am trying now and beet root juice. I will ask my cardiologist about this when I see him in the near future.

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Beta alanine, citrulline malate, and 1/8 t. of potassium nitrate (or lots of beet juice). For BP, you're supposed to drink up to 24 oz. of beet juice every day:

https://www.everydayhealth.com/colum...-stiff-hearts/


https://examine.com/supplements/beet-root/


For the paupers among us, potassium nitrate is 61% nitrate by weight. For a 436mg dose if nitrate, that comes out to 715mg of KNO3 (potassium nitrate). One teaspoon of KNO3 weighs 6g, so 1/8 t. is about that dose. Food grade KNO3 is available in bulk and very inexpensive.
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Old 01-14-18, 01:51 PM   #50
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Based on this paper I am willing to give the Kno3 a try, probably just buying premade capsules to start. Whether it is beet root juice or some other source of inorganic nitrate, there seems to be evidence that it has benefits, including BP reduction. The capsules are less costly than the no2 supplement I am trying now and beet root juice. I will ask my cardiologist about this when I see him in the near future.
If you're concerned about cost and efficacy, considering that most NO uptake takes place in the mouth (via the entero-salivary pathway, as noted in the paper you linked above), you may want to take a serious look at the Beet'Ums chews I posted back in post #3. Chewing really maximizes that conversion time in-mouth compared to liquids, so it's possible you get more "bang for your buck" from the concentrated BeetUms, although I don't know.

At $34 for 30pc bag, it sounds like they cost very close to the same as the KNO3 capsules you're looking at, and the chews offer some additional benefits from a satisfaction, ease-of-use, and additional compounds perspective.

https://purecleanperformance.squarespace.com
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