KraneXL

Well you started off well enough, then you went into statements that were clearly crafted to be disparaging without any evidence to substantiate it. You are "the pot calling the kettle black."

In any event, fasting wasn't invented by me, nor do I gain anything by promoting it. It is a practice performed by millions, and has been around for thousands of years. If there was something insidious, or inherently unhealthy about it, I'm sure someone would have figured that out by now.

Nevertheless, science only attempts to explain the universe, it doesn't create it. What works in nature, works whether we can explain it or not. You don't need to publish a book to be able to tell that.

Besides, you're missing the most obvious flaw of all in your plans: what would be the "agenda" of telling people to consume less? On the other hand, I could think of a thousand advantages for someone wanting to convince people to do the opposite. When you hear good news don't you want to share it? There nothing wrong with being intent on a cause. Especially when people are free to do their own research and make up their mines if it something that works for them or not.Nothing you have provide as to why IF isn't a great method in helping to control diet has been of any valid use to anyone. So far, all you've added has been nothing more than a voice in the wilderness. But if you have something useful to add or that works better, or even as well, no one is stopping you. Better still, you should start your own thread and begin providing some useful content to help others.

hubcyclist

As redlude said above, you're not going to be convinced otherwise. I have personal experience conducting health related research, and I know how hard it is for even good research to make it through the rigorous peer review process and to have every assertion questioned, so to see these leaps in logic (like that autophagy is a benefit of IF, even though it's not fully understood in humans and from what I see will have to be triggered by newly developed drugs), it just sets off my BS detector. I know you're not selling anything, you're just enthusiastic, but everyone else posting stuff online do have agendas, whether it's driving traffic to their websites, getting youtube clicks, ad revenue, etc. If you want to review actual medical research, you need to be on pubmed and other repositories of peer reviewed research. Get off youtube and these random websites.

redlude97

This is golden coming from you. First you misrepresent my position on IF, in which through scientific research and my own personal experience have shown how IF can help control diet AND improve cycling performance. The actual interesting and insightful discussion in this thread have revolved around my and others contributions that have merit beyond being youtube broscience.

Seattle Forrest

Wouldn't "a higher state of metabolic efficiency" mean getting more work accomplished on fewer calories (getting more bang for your buck) and lead to weight gain?

KraneXL

That's certainly one way of looking at it. But I'm not sure how that would lead to weight gain

Seattle Forrest

Well because if you're now in a higher state of metabolic efficiency, and burning fewer calories as you go about your day, but eating the same amount (because it's not a diet it's a schedule) that means weight gain. Is that what people in the IF community see?

One of the big reasons we're having an obesity crisis is people just don't burn as many calories anymore. We mostly all have sit down jobs now. No one walks to the file room, they pull the file up on the computer. Kids stopped walking and biking to school because of helicopter parent madness. And everyone got fat. Is the same thing happening to people who do intermittent fasting because they're burning fewer calories with their improved metabolic engines?

KraneXL

No, you never want to burn fewer calories. Not sure where the confusion came in at, however, this is not the primary claim of IF. Burning more calories is a component of exercise since it builds muscle and muscle is metabolically active while fat is not.

IF simply gives you the opportunity to help your diet work better. If you're fasting, you are not eating. That alone can assist any diet plan. No, the two aren't related in that manner. And again, the goal is to burn more calories per unit time. However, that's not directly associated with IF.

Seattle Forrest

The goal is to burn more calories per hour, as you say, but IF puts you into a state of increased metabolic activity, in which you burn fewer calories. You told me earlier.

prathmann

So it seems like relative metabolic inefficiency would be desired by most people so they could continue to eat as before but lose weight since the body isn't using the food energy intake efficiently.

KraneXL

Efficiency in this case refers to the absorption and utilization of caloric intake towards the production of energy rather fat storage. If you want to interpret it another sense you need to redefine the parameters.

wolfchild

Fasting slows down your metabolism and makes your body super sensitive to food. When you fast a lot and often, your body will end up burning a lot less calories from the food you eat and more of the food that you eat will end up being stored as fat, that's just your body's self preservation mechanism against future starvation ( fasting)... Also doing extreme fasts such as the 30 hour fast which you just did will burn muscle tissue. The less muscle you have the less calories you will burn...But hey, it's your body and you can do whatever you want with it.
Self-experimentation is a good way to learn and see if something works or doesn't work.

KraneXL

That's absolutely true, but only after a point; and it takes place over time. The trick with anything in the body is to keep it off balance and guessing so it doesn't adapt to any one system. You also need to incorporate a regiment of exercise which adds an additional caloric utilization mechanisms to the mix.Also true, but also after a certain time period which has been generally accepted to be beyond 36 hours. Your body also has a self-preservation mechanism to preserve muscle. Therefore, it will resist using muscle for fuel until it has exhausted all other sources. The same applies to why it won't burn fat as long as there is a surplus of glycogen stores available. They must first be exhausted which is where fasting comes in. Fast just long enough to exhaust glycogen supplies, but not so long as to risk burning valuable muscle. This is your "self-experimentation" in operation. Most of us do the same thing with new medication: Experiment to determine what is just the correct dosage to cure the ailment, but not so much that it does more harm than good.

Seattle Forrest

Thanks for clarifying.

To people with power meters - and that's many of us in here - metabolic efficiency means something entirely different, to do with how you convert kJ to food calories.

SHBR

I've been doing the 16/8 fasting routine for almost 2 years on and off.

I can lose 1KG/month just by following that routine, without any diet changes.

My gut gets smaller, I eat less, and my metabolism becomes more efficient.

Then winter comes, it gets cold enough that my night rides turn to day rides, and the munchies become overwhelming.

Also, it doesn't help that my wife is good cook and does the total opposite. (16/8 in reverse) She eats whenever she feels hungry, usually every few hours.

KraneXL

I appreciate you mentioning that. Sometimes I can't keep up will all the benefits.Never giving her digestive system a good chance to cleanse and recuperate. Remind her of that.

SHBR

^She was forced to fast for a few days for a surgery years ago, she has never fasted her entire life, old habits are hard to break.^

Decades ago I also restricted myself to one or two meals a day, mostly for economic reasons, and never gained any weight, even though I was quite sedentary at the time.

Like others have mentioned, this is not religion, and I don't expect anyone (especially my wife) to benefit from this lifestyle.

For many it would be a sort of punishment, or entirely unsuitable for their preferred lifestyle.

KraneXL

Speaking of religion. I wouldn't worry too much about the connection to fasting. If the "spirit" isn't already in you, its not going to have any influence beyond that of your physical health.

redlude97

This is straight up wrong, about half of your calories at rest are from fat(fatty acid oxidation). Even if we simply consider the source of blood glucose required for energy in the body(brain), and not the fatty acid oxidation that occurs at all times, we see that even in a fasted state that gluconeogenesis of glycerol from triglycerides starts to occur before glycogen stores are depleted. This was pointed out very early in this thread.

KraneXL

Its not wrong, however, I can understand that you might be confused. I'm using the general understanding of what takes place which takes for granted that most people are smart enough realize the body does not operate like a switch where one function doesn't immediately start until the other completely ends. There is a transition that varies.
Nevertheless, my reference is to the utilization of significant fat stores.

I'll offer this video that may help you grasp the concept, and for anyone else that may need a better visual reference. Although I'm sure you'll still find a way to believe what you want. In any event, I've already experienced the results, so I know that it works.

When does fat burning start when intermittent fasting

A lot of people have the exact same feeling about exercise. In fact, I've heard more than a few of them say those exact words.

redlude97

you refute a scientific review from actual scientists about what actually happens in the body through direct measurement with a YouTube video

KraneXL

I wasn't refuting the science, the video was used to explain the process is terms simple enough for you to understand. But maybe I've been going at this the wrong way. Perhaps you should tell us what protocol/diet you're using and how well it's worked for you.

With all the negativity you have towards IF I'm surprised I haven't seen your thread touting its superior benefits. Could you post a link to it?

I figure you have to have discovered something better, so I'm eager to hear the science about how its was developed, and how well its worked for you. Please share it with the forum.

redlude97

So are you glycogen depleted or not? The simple video doesn't refute my point, that you aren't glycogen depleted in a "fasted" state. fat burning starts before glycogen is substantially depleted, that is a scientific fact. Its easily measurable in a lab and repeated in numerous studies. The fact you won't accept this says it all about your understanding of the process. If you want to know my protocol, just go back to post #20 and read through all the relevant discussion. There is a difference between negativity towards the concept of IF, and the cult like bro science some people use to try to convince others of magical benefits. I'm still using a 16:8 fasting protocol with a fasted training ride, down 15 lbs since my high point over the winter, and my FTP has increased by 23W. What are your gains?

KraneXL

In this brief video Dr. Fung summarizes the history of fasting, some of its benefits, and the various reasons why people all over the world fast.

What is intermittent fasting?" target="_blank">What is intermittent fasting?

OBoile

KaneXL, no one is anti-fasting. We are saying the following:
1. To lose weight, you need to consume fewer calories than you burn.
2. There are many ways that this can be done in a healthy effective manner.
3. Intermediate Fasting is one of those ways.
4. Which way is "best" depends largely on the individual and their lifestyle.
5. Beyond being a potentially effective way to control calories, there is little to no evidence that IF provides any substantial health benefits over consuming meals at "regular" frequencies.

KraneXL

And yet your posts are full of negativity.There is also little to no evidence that marijuana provide any health benefit either. Why would it be, that would be taking money from big pharma. In fact, ALL the data we've been fed so far still demonstrate its only good for one thing: reefer madness. Nevertheless, millions of people attest to its positive benefits.

When it comes to IF, that number grows exponentially. Unless you believe all those people are wrong, I'd say that was some pretty convincing evidence, wouldn't you?

In any event, there are millions of people all over the world that benefit from IF, and have used it successfully as part of their diet and health regime. I am one of those individuals, and wanted to share some of what I've learned and experience over the years with others who are open-minded and willing enough to listen and investigate it further. That's what this thread is for.

Fasting is arguably the most challenging dieting protocol you can undertake; so I realize its not for everyone. But what makes fasting so unique, it can broaden you psychologically, while enhancing your physiology and biology as well.

As the good doctor suggests in the video above, unlike other strict diets, its system can be life-changing, and used to go far beyond mere weight loss.