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Question on Judging a Ride's Real Training Effect

Old 06-25-18, 07:32 PM
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DaveLeeNC
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Question on Judging a Ride's Real Training Effect

I did a ride the other day in pretty hot weather (95 degrees, sunny, and NC humidity). It was 90 minutes and by the #'s (power meter) not all that intense. In fact two days prior I had done a ride of similar distance/terrain and almost 10% higher Normalized Power for the ride. That earlier ride felt 'strong' but not a big deal. And it was a good 10 to 15 degrees cooler (earlier in the day).

But today's 'easier' ride left me literally exhausted even though it was, as measured by the #'s, a pretty easy ride. So the question is was there really a 'training effect' of a really hard ride?

Thanks.

dave
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Old 06-25-18, 07:49 PM
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Heat will do that to you. I generally find it more difficult to make similar watts per HR numbers when the temperature is high. I did an 81% intensity, 95 minute ride yesterday in low-60ºs, and it was somewhat easier on me than today's 59% effort, which ended at 104º.
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Old 06-25-18, 09:41 PM
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Is one of your "#'s" a hrTSS number calculated off your HR? If you only go by a TSS calculated off power, you never know your physiological stress.

Whether or no, heat training is the best training. Always ride in the heat if you can. Sounds stupid, but it works very well.
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Old 06-26-18, 05:11 AM
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For me, it is important to consciously drink more when the heat and humidity kick up - or a ride will feel really hard mainly because I'm getting de-hydrated. In the Washington DC area, that first ride when the temps and humidity are high is always a hard ride, usually can see my HR higher especially on the second half of the ride, when compared to same route done during cooler weather. A month or more of hot weather riding and on that same ride (when I drink more) my HR goes down a good deal, though not all the way back to the cool weather numbers.

I agree about the hot weather training - doing that same route when we get a break in the dog days of summer, I can definitely feel the fitness increase!
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Old 06-26-18, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Is one of your "#'s" a hrTSS number calculated off your HR? If you only go by a TSS calculated off power, you never know your physiological stress.

Whether or no, heat training is the best training. Always ride in the heat if you can. Sounds stupid, but it works very well.
That is an interesting perspective. One negative, however, is that your calorie burn is reduced since your total work output is lower. Or at least I assume this is the case.

dave
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Old 06-26-18, 01:16 PM
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It's still work, it's still training. You can't just go off power meters alone when dew points are high, as your body is working that much harder to cool itself.

Once cooler weather rolls around, power numbers will be back up to normal (or higher).
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Old 06-26-18, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
It's still work, it's still training. You can't just go off power meters alone when dew points are high, as your body is working that much harder to cool itself.
What work does a body do to cool itself?
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Old 06-26-18, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
What work does a body do to cool itself?
Additional dilation of blood vessels and increased blood flow near the surface of the skin for purposes of cooling through evaporation. Particularly noticeable via an increased heart rate and higher perceived exertion for a given workload.

300 watts when it's 95 degrees is a helluva lot tougher than when it's 50 degrees.
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Old 06-26-18, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Additional dilation of blood vessels and increased blood flow near the surface of the skin for purposes of cooling through evaporation. Particularly noticeable via an increased heart rate and higher perceived exertion for a given workload.

300 watts when it's 95 degrees is a helluva lot tougher than when it's 50 degrees.
Work is applying a force over a distance. I can't believe it takes significant work work to dilate blood vessels. Perceived effort can be higher without additional work being done.
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Old 06-26-18, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Work is applying a force over a distance. I can't believe it takes significant work work to dilate blood vessels. Perceived effort can be higher without additional work being done.
Work is an activity aimed at producing a result.

If you don't think that there's a correlation between your body working harder to cool itself down and a decrease in athletic performance, then I don't know what to tell you.
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Old 06-26-18, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Work is an activity aimed at producing a result.
If you want to communicate clearly, you can't start redefining words willy nilly. Work has a clear definition, your usage is not it. I'm not saying the environment doesn't affect performance. I'm only doubtful that the mechanism involves additional work (precise definition) due to cooling.
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Old 06-26-18, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
If you want to communicate clearly, you can't start redefining words willy nilly. Work has a clear definition, your usage is not it. I'm not saying the environment doesn't affect performance. I'm only doubtful that the mechanism involves additional work (precise definition) due to cooling.
Wrong, work has several definitions. One of which is:

noun. 1.activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

So thanks for the pointless game of semantics, but it really has nothing to do with anything.

If you're that interested, I'm sure some indepth physiology study will get you better answers than vocabulary trolling.
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Old 06-26-18, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
If you want to communicate clearly, you can't start redefining words willy nilly. Work has a clear definition, your usage is not it. I'm not saying the environment doesn't affect performance. I'm only doubtful that the mechanism involves additional work (precise definition) due to cooling.
So how long do you think it'll take for you to educate the rest of the world on the precise definition of work according to asgelle?

“the heart has to work significantly harder on a hot day versus a cool one. This usually means decreased performance that feels quite unpleasant.” -Julien Periard, a physiologist at Aspetar who studies the mechanisms limiting prolonged exercise performance in heat.


And then from the British Heart Foundation, Secondscount.org, and the cooperhealth.org blog:

Your heart works overtime to cope with the hot weather

When outdoor temperatures rise (or you move to, or travel to, a hot climate), your heart has to beat faster and work harder to pump blood to the surface of your skin to assist with sweating to cool your body.
hot weather increases the workload on your heart and the demand for oxygen, especially when you are more active.

Looks like you've got a lot of work ahead of you, agelle.
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Old 06-26-18, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Additional dilation of blood vessels and increased blood flow near the surface of the skin for purposes of cooling through evaporation. Particularly noticeable via an increased heart rate and higher perceived exertion for a given workload.

300 watts when it's 95 degrees is a helluva lot tougher than when it's 50 degrees.
I was reminded of this Sunday in Nevada City. (except that it was 400w at 100F )
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Old 06-26-18, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
So how long do you think it'll take for you to educate the rest of the world on the precise definition of work according to asgelle?
Funny.
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Old 06-26-18, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Funny.
Yes, words have that potential.

Helps when you understand context.
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Old 06-26-18, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
If you want to communicate clearly, you can't start redefining words willy nilly. Work has a clear definition, your usage is not it. I'm not saying the environment doesn't affect performance. I'm only doubtful that the mechanism involves additional work (precise definition) due to cooling.
Try to do an FTP indoors with and without adequate cooling/fans. See if you can hit the same numbers. A power meter(and the measure of mechanical work being put into the bike) is only one measure, and an estimate of the amount of physiological work being done at a set efficiency which is affected by many factors.
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Old 06-26-18, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Try to do an FTP indoors with and without adequate cooling/fans. See if you can hit the same numbers. A power meter(and the measure of mechanical work being put into the bike) is only one measure, and an estimate of the amount of physiological work being done at a set efficiency which is affected by many factors.
What is physiological work? I've never seen that before. What do you mean by efficiency? Work produced per energy consumed?
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Old 06-26-18, 04:49 PM
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I'm not sure if I think of a single short ride as having much of a "training effect", although perhaps a bit of a fatigue effect.

Sometimes I can feel a bit of an after-effect the day after, but if I have a rest (slow) day, the second day after is generally ok, except in the cases of extreme efforts (150+ mile rides can take a couple of recovery days, and can also have some long-term effects from a single ride).

Anyway, if you had a couple of days rest, then I'd attribute a hard or easy ride on weather, mood, food, wind, etc.
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Old 06-26-18, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
What is physiological work? I've never seen that before. What do you mean by efficiency? Work produced per energy consumed?
physiological work is the work done by metabolism of energy stores, and can be measured directly through oxygen consumption/respiration. Efficiency is as you guessed. Which we estimate is ~25% for converting power meter work to calories burned but varies person to person and with conditions.
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Old 06-27-18, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
What is physiological work? I've never seen that before. What do you mean by efficiency? Work produced per energy consumed?
How many miles per taco you get is affected by many things (apart from what you put in the tacos).
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Old 06-27-18, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Is one of your "#'s" a hrTSS number calculated off your HR? If you only go by a TSS calculated off power, you never know your physiological stress.

Whether or no, heat training is the best training. Always ride in the heat if you can. Sounds stupid, but it works very well.
I agree with Carbonfiberboy and there are studies to show this is no joke...

https://www.outsideonline.com/209855...-training-heat

Studies have found that, in addition to an increased rate of perspiration, training in the heat can increase an athlete’s blood plasma volume (which leads to better cardiovascular fitness), reduce overall core temperature, reduce blood lactate, increase skeletal muscle force, and, counterintuitively, make a person train better in cold temperatures. In fact, heat acclimation may actually be more beneficial than altitude training in eliciting positive physiological adaptations, says Santiago Lorenzo, a professor of physiology at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine and a former decathlete at the University of Oregon.
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Old 06-27-18, 12:28 PM
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So what they're saying is, I don't get cold when riding in the winter because I ride in the summer when it's as hot as a blast furnace. Well, I can't argue it. I dress the same for 40º and 100º.
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Old 06-27-18, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
I did a ride the other day in pretty hot weather (95 degrees, sunny, and NC humidity). It was 90 minutes and by the #'s (power meter) not all that intense. In fact two days prior I had done a ride of similar distance/terrain and almost 10% higher Normalized Power for the ride. That earlier ride felt 'strong' but not a big deal. And it was a good 10 to 15 degrees cooler (earlier in the day).

But today's 'easier' ride left me literally exhausted even though it was, as measured by the #'s, a pretty easy ride. So the question is was there really a 'training effect' of a really hard ride?

Thanks.

dave
A hard ride in bad conditions helps your body adapt to riding hard in bad conditions. To that effect, there is certainly a training benefit.

As to whether it'll increase your FTP or something of the like, probably not.
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Old 06-27-18, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by colombo357 View Post
A hard ride in bad conditions helps your body adapt to riding hard in bad conditions. To that effect, there is certainly a training benefit.

As to whether it'll increase your FTP or something of the like, probably not.
If you look at the interesting link provided br work4bike (#22), there could well be an ftp benefit here.

dave

ps. Thx, W4B
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