Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Is this adrenal fatigue/overtraining?

Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Is this adrenal fatigue/overtraining?

Reply

Old 10-09-18, 10:51 PM
  #51  
Dreww10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 129 Post(s)
Five months along, this issue unfortunately hasn't resolved itself. Haven't had my cortisol levels checked yet, however, I haven't developed any syndromes or diseases in this timeframe that I'm aware of, nor is there any residual fatigue, I just simply cannot ride a bike. I've cut back to one ride or less a week, but it has probably in fact worsened, limiting me to about 20 miles on flat road at ~16 mph pace. Heart rate is still elevated about 15-20 bpm, although in all this time, I'd imagine my loss of fitness would correlate with an increase in active HR anyhow. I feel great in general and mentally motivated to ride again, but just can't physically do it. If this is overtraining, can it really take one this long/longer to recover, even in the absence of any illnesses, fatigue, or soreness, or other symptoms?
Dreww10 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-18, 10:02 AM
  #52  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,090

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1403 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dreww10 View Post
Five months along, this issue unfortunately hasn't resolved itself. Haven't had my cortisol levels checked yet, however, I haven't developed any syndromes or diseases in this timeframe that I'm aware of, nor is there any residual fatigue, I just simply cannot ride a bike. I've cut back to one ride or less a week, but it has probably in fact worsened, limiting me to about 20 miles on flat road at ~16 mph pace. Heart rate is still elevated about 15-20 bpm, although in all this time, I'd imagine my loss of fitness would correlate with an increase in active HR anyhow. I feel great in general and mentally motivated to ride again, but just can't physically do it. If this is overtraining, can it really take one this long/longer to recover, even in the absence of any illnesses, fatigue, or soreness, or other symptoms?
Not overtraining, never thought it was. Get thee to a doctor, see if you can talk the doc into a hormone panel, esp. DHEA or anything else the doc can think of. Of course the usual full panel of blood markers incl. vitamins D and B12 and hematocrit. Tell the doc there's something bad wrong with you and you want a diagnosis. They hate to do that because it's a lot of work, but without a diagnosis there's really nothing to be done. Be persistent. Another thought: heart murmur? Physical exam and EKG? EKG actually pretty quick and cheap. You better have health insurance.

HRV is a diagnostic aid, though no one knows what it's diagnosing, just some unknown problem. Still it's something one can do oneself. Elite HRV for your smartphone works well. You'll need a HR transmitter, either a ANT+ or Bluetooth (Polar or other). You can compare your readings online with those of other Elite users. One has to use it for several days - one reading isn't very meaningful.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-18, 05:34 PM
  #53  
Dreww10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 129 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Not overtraining, never thought it was. Get thee to a doctor, see if you can talk the doc into a hormone panel, esp. DHEA or anything else the doc can think of. Of course the usual full panel of blood markers incl. vitamins D and B12 and hematocrit. Tell the doc there's something bad wrong with you and you want a diagnosis. They hate to do that because it's a lot of work, but without a diagnosis there's really nothing to be done. Be persistent. Another thought: heart murmur? Physical exam and EKG? EKG actually pretty quick and cheap. You better have health insurance.

HRV is a diagnostic aid, though no one knows what it's diagnosing, just some unknown problem. Still it's something one can do oneself. Elite HRV for your smartphone works well. You'll need a HR transmitter, either a ANT+ or Bluetooth (Polar or other). You can compare your readings online with those of other Elite users. One has to use it for several days - one reading isn't very meaningful.
I mean no discredit to your thoughts and experiences, because you've been a wealth of knowledge here on the forum, but all of my reading on the subject of overtraining says its evidenced by an increase in heart rate, not suppressed. I'm certainly open, however, to hearing/reading other facts if that is indeed incorrect.

One of the challenges I'm having, in addition to the natural increase in HR due to loss of fitness, is that I've never been in this position before. By that I mean I started riding six years ago and have never taken a break long enough to lose much, if any, fitness, and so I'm unsure if it's to be expected for 20 miles to be challenging after this much time off, or if I should be closer to where I left off. In other words, I may not even know when I'm recovered, because riding at all may taxing at this point.
Dreww10 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-18, 06:53 PM
  #54  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,090

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1403 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dreww10 View Post
I mean no discredit to your thoughts and experiences, because you've been a wealth of knowledge here on the forum, but all of my reading on the subject of overtraining says its evidenced by an increase in heart rate, not suppressed. I'm certainly open, however, to hearing/reading other facts if that is indeed incorrect.

One of the challenges I'm having, in addition to the natural increase in HR due to loss of fitness, is that I've never been in this position before. By that I mean I started riding six years ago and have never taken a break long enough to lose much, if any, fitness, and so I'm unsure if it's to be expected for 20 miles to be challenging after this much time off, or if I should be closer to where I left off. In other words, I may not even know when I'm recovered, because riding at all may taxing at this point.
Overtraining is adrenal fatigue (at least that seems to be the case). Therefore, resting HR is elevated and active HR, especially over zone 2, is depressed. That's what I've personally observed and is the experience of others as well.

As you say, increased active HR could easily be the result of detraining. No, you should be nowhere near where you left off. It goes away so fast. I assume you've tried taking some hills hard and found your HR skyrocketed and you panted. That would be normal. However the extent of that increased HR might not be normal, hence my feeling about getting some blood work done. If your hematorcrit for instance is in the toilet, that might be a symptom of other problems. Even getting out for 20 once a week should cause some training effect, so that each week that ride should get easier. I don't think blogging is going to solve the problem, if there even is one. Doctor. Get a clean bill and start riding your heart out or not. The thing is, you've been having problems for a couple years: high HR at what should be a normal pace and it seems to be getting worse. That'd scare me, frankly.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 01:50 AM
  #55  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,353

Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert

Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2155 Post(s)
Get that thyroid thing rechecked. Doctors may say "It's within normal limits" but that doesn't mean it's right for you.

Back in early summer I got some bad advice from a nurse practitioner at my health network's geriatric clinic (yeah, at 60 I really dislike that whole concept). She told me to quit taking thyroid meds because my thyroid panel showed normal. Made no sense to me but I followed her instructions.

Huge, mistake. Within a few weeks I was wiped out, barely enough energy to get out of bed. Went to urgent care, the doc redid the thyroid panel. It was just barely within normal limits, but she said that doesn't mean it's normal for me. Started me back on levothyroxine. Took about three weeks before I began to feel better. Now it's six weeks and I'm starting to get back to normal.

But my heart rate is still all over the place. That's typical of both Hashimoto's (my first diagnosis about 17 years ago) and Graves diseases, and some endocrinologists say some patients flip-flop between Hashimoto's (hypo-thyroidism) and Graves (hyper), which makes diagnosis and treatment even trickier. My resting pulse can vary from 60-100. My low effort HR is 120, moderate is 140, high sustainable effort is 160, and maxed out for HIIT sprints of 15-60 seconds is 170-175. That's as high as I can crank up my heart rate.

The weird thing is my BP will drop to normal or even a bit low immediately after a workout, as low as 80/50 before stabilizing at 110-120/60-70. But my heart rate will remain 90-100 for an hour or longer after a workout. It takes hours before it drops to 70 or so. Again, a symptom of a wonky thyroid.

So don't go just by TSH and T4 panels that show you're within "normal" limits. It may not be normal or optimal for you.

Diet and rest are bigger factors as we get older. I felt great Wednesday morning and early afternoon, then crashed suddenly on the train ride home from the doctor's appointment. I'd planned on a ride when I got home but napped instead. Woke up after 10 pm, felt lousy, ate "breakfast" and now I feel fine again. So I'm going for a bike ride, even though it's 3 a.m.

Good reminder that I'm not 20 anymore and need to eat more regularly, even when I'm not hungry, and rest even when I think I'm not tired.

I got a second opinion this week and the doc said the same thing -- have the thyroid removed, most of it or all, depending on what they find in surgery and post-surgical section biopsy. So I'll be on thyroid meds the rest of my life. Fine with me, as long as I can keep riding and working out within reasonable expectations.
canklecat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 09:52 AM
  #56  
McBTC
Senior Member
 
McBTC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,423

Bikes: 2015 22 Speed

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1326 Post(s)
Possibly, the early stages of, chronic compartment syndrome?
McBTC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 10:47 AM
  #57  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,090

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1403 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dreww10 View Post
I mean no discredit to your thoughts and experiences, because you've been a wealth of knowledge here on the forum, but all of my reading on the subject of overtraining says its evidenced by an increase in heart rate, not suppressed. I'm certainly open, however, to hearing/reading other facts if that is indeed incorrect.

One of the challenges I'm having, in addition to the natural increase in HR due to loss of fitness, is that I've never been in this position before. By that I mean I started riding six years ago and have never taken a break long enough to lose much, if any, fitness, and so I'm unsure if it's to be expected for 20 miles to be challenging after this much time off, or if I should be closer to where I left off. In other words, I may not even know when I'm recovered, because riding at all may taxing at this point.
I just remembered that bolded part. When I could no longer ignore that same feeling is when I went to the doc about what turned out to be PMR (I think!). I kept saying to myself, "Well, I am another year older, maybe this is what people go through as they age?" And then I finally decided, when I could no longer ignore the pain, that was nonsense. I should feel fine, just like I've always felt. I.e. PROBLEM. So I did something about it, finally. Funny how we are. Is it just men? Tough guys, don't need help? We can work through it? However that is, I finally gave in and got help.

The tricky part, yet to be explored, is like @canklecat was saying, medical pros are not all equal. Sometimes you have to explore a little. My first and second doc didn't know really what's wrong with me for sure, other than that I have a problem. 3rd doc appointment coming up next week, a rheumatologist who'll probably order more blood work. Or maybe not. Maybe she'll just know, having seen this before, unlike docs 1 and 2.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 11:05 AM
  #58  
Dreww10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 129 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Overtraining is adrenal fatigue (at least that seems to be the case). Therefore, resting HR is elevated and active HR, especially over zone 2, is depressed. That's what I've personally observed and is the experience of others as well.

As you say, increased active HR could easily be the result of detraining. No, you should be nowhere near where you left off. It goes away so fast. I assume you've tried taking some hills hard and found your HR skyrocketed and you panted. That would be normal. However the extent of that increased HR might not be normal, hence my feeling about getting some blood work done. If your hematorcrit for instance is in the toilet, that might be a symptom of other problems. Even getting out for 20 once a week should cause some training effect, so that each week that ride should get easier. I don't think blogging is going to solve the problem, if there even is one. Doctor. Get a clean bill and start riding your heart out or not. The thing is, you've been having problems for a couple years: high HR at what should be a normal pace and it seems to be getting worse. That'd scare me, frankly.
I checked my resting HR in the very beginning, when I was feeling fatigued and lethargic 24 hours a day, and it was normal (about 45 bpm); haven't checked it lately but I'd suspect it's increased now due to detraining. As noted above, I no longer have any symptoms whatsoever: no fatigue, no illness, insomnia, irregular weight less/gain, nothing. I feel 100% fine, and even after I ride I still feel great, I just don't have any endurance or power and HR is up. You're right, though, that slow recovery and cramping have been an ongoing issue.

The only thing I can recollect that was out of the norm at the time this began was I had been experimenting with consuming increasing amounts of pure salt in my bottles. I have to assume though that a heart condition caused by that would present other symptoms besides poor athletic performance, would it not?

Last edited by Dreww10; 10-11-18 at 11:12 AM.
Dreww10 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 01:13 PM
  #59  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,090

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1403 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dreww10 View Post
I checked my resting HR in the very beginning, when I was feeling fatigued and lethargic 24 hours a day, and it was normal (about 45 bpm); haven't checked it lately but I'd suspect it's increased now due to detraining. As noted above, I no longer have any symptoms whatsoever: no fatigue, no illness, insomnia, irregular weight less/gain, nothing. I feel 100% fine, and even after I ride I still feel great, I just don't have any endurance or power and HR is up. You're right, though, that slow recovery and cramping have been an ongoing issue.

The only thing I can recollect that was out of the norm at the time this began was I had been experimenting with consuming increasing amounts of pure salt in my bottles. I have to assume though that a heart condition caused by that would present other symptoms besides poor athletic performance, would it not?
Other than weight gain, I don't think you'd notice increased salt. No endurance or power: something's screwed up. Could be anything. Blood's not right? Mitochondria not right? Hormones not right? You seem to have no interest in going to a doctor to find out what's wrong. Post again after you've seen one and have all blood work and a diagnosis.

CFB out. The longer you wait to find out, the greater the danger.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 01:16 PM
  #60  
Dreww10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 129 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Other than weight gain, I don't think you'd notice increased salt. No endurance or power: something's screwed up. Could be anything. Blood's not right? Mitochondria not right? Hormones not right? You seem to have no interest in going to a doctor to find out what's wrong. Post again after you've seen one and have all blood work and a diagnosis.

CFB out. The longer you wait to find out, the greater the danger.
All bloodwork is normal. Awaiting cortisol results.
Dreww10 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 08:11 PM
  #61  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,353

Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert

Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2155 Post(s)
Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Possibly, the early stages of, chronic compartment syndrome?
Fascinating. I'd never heard of that specific syndrome before, although I was aware of asthma caused by exertion -- that's the main reason I have albuterol inhalers, for occasional exertion asthma.

But my symptoms are the opposite of those described for chronic exertional compartment syndrome. Sounds a bit like fibromyalgia. Try discussing stuff like that with most doctors. You'll get the House routine about lupus. Remember the medical show House with Hugh Laurie? There was a long-running joke: "It's not lupus. It's never lupus." Except sometimes it was lupus.

Often I feel at my best after warming up, during and for an hour or so after a good workout (other than HIIT, which just hurts and ain't ever fun). Whatever the body and brain do during and immediately after a good workout -- endorphins, oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, etc. -- it's as effective for me as moderate opiates but with a mild stimulant kicker instead of opiate-type grogginess and lethargy. Pretty similar to a couple of cups of strong coffee.

The problem is the sensation of well being and reduced pain doesn't last. I'll wake up the next day feeling miserable, achy and groggy, almost like a hangover. And I quit drinking about three months ago, not because I drank too much -- I rarely drank more than one or two beers at a time, only a few times a week, about six beers a week. But because I didn't seem to be metabolizing alcohol properly anymore. Just one beer would cause hangover symptoms within an hour or two.

Every morning it can take me 2-3 hours just to begin to feel human again. So if I have any appointments or anything constructive to do that day I need to wake up hours earlier than usual just to be halfway prepared. Sometimes the rebound hits later while I'm still awake. That's annoying. I'm hoping getting the thyroid problem resolved will help.
canklecat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-18, 08:22 AM
  #62  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,090

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1403 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dreww10 View Post
All bloodwork is normal. Awaiting cortisol results.
Testosterone?
Vitamin D?
Hematocrit?
CRP?
CK?
TSH?
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-18, 10:50 AM
  #63  
McBTC
Senior Member
 
McBTC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,423

Bikes: 2015 22 Speed

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1326 Post(s)
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post



Every morning it can take me 2-3 hours just to begin to feel human again. So if I have any appointments or anything constructive to do that day I need to wake up hours earlier than usual just to be halfway prepared. Sometimes the rebound hits later while I'm still awake. That's annoying. I'm hoping getting the thyroid problem resolved will help.
You can fix that in 60 seconds...

How to Shower for a Ride (work, etc.)

It's not hard -- just the reverse because the results are energizing and the most amazing thing is-- it always works... What makes it easy to try is realizing it's the change and the absolute amount of the change doesn't have to be that great or jarringly quick or long to do the trick!
McBTC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-18, 07:23 PM
  #64  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,353

Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert

Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2155 Post(s)
Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
You can fix that in 60 seconds...

How to Shower for a Ride (work, etc.)

It's not hard -- just the reverse because the results are energizing and the most amazing thing is-- it always works... What makes it easy to try is realizing it's the change and the absolute amount of the change doesn't have to be that great or jarringly quick or long to do the trick!
That hot/cold shower jolt to kick dopamine in the pants worked great when I was younger and healthier. I did it often. Heck, just jumping on my bike and riding to work jumpstarted all the brain chemicals that lift the morning fog. I'd shower at work.

But the hot/cold shower trick doesn't do a thing to relieve the chronic fatigue and aches caused by the thyroid auto-immune disorder.

Heck, I've tried every supplement and voodoo potion recommended by the internet wise persons, nutrition quacks and voodoo practitioners. Extra iron, calcium, Vitamin C and B, potassium, magnesium, DHEA, pregnenolone, CBD, you name it, I've tried it. Any slight effect could be attributed to placebo effect. I'm looking for something with a definite, unambiguous, no fooling around effect.

Only thing that seems to help is ibuprofen, two or three cups of strong coffee, some stretching and 15-30 minutes of easy spinning on the indoor trainer. Still takes time. And the doc switched me from massive amounts of ibuprofen to twice daily diclofenac. Seems to help with the inflammation pain.

I've been back on thyroid meds going on six weeks now. Surgery to remove the dead half of the thyroid will be later this year, and they'll triple check for cancer. First biopsy showed no cancer and both endocrinologists and ENT docs I've consulted with say the risk of cancer is low with this disorder. Docs say it'll take time to feel close to normal again. I'm just impatient.
canklecat is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service