Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Interval Repeats are the Cycling Software Industry's Worst Nightmare

Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Interval Repeats are the Cycling Software Industry's Worst Nightmare

Reply

Old 10-01-18, 07:28 AM
  #51  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
My trainer didn't come with any software and I don't even see a USB port. Now what?
You mean dumb trainer?
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 07:47 AM
  #52  
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,649
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 836 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Targeting multiple systems in a single workout is inferior if done arbitrarily. If you know what you're doing and customize them then fine. For generic plans they are terrible. For new cyclists, interval repeats are better because they are accessible.
I think everyone understands the value of intervals. Not sure why you think mixing systems in a workout is an issue? It's not difficult to incorporate multiple types of intervals in a longer training session. Perhaps if you've only got 30-40 min to workout indoors then fine but if you're going out for a long ride it's common to mix it up a little more. After all you don't get to race using only one system.
gregf83 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 08:59 AM
  #53  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 24,068

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8319 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
You mean dumb trainer?
Yup. Now what?
WhyFi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 10:42 AM
  #54  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,828
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1510 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Targeting multiple systems in a single workout is inferior if done arbitrarily. If you know what you're doing and customize them then fine. For generic plans they are terrible. For new cyclists, interval repeats are better because they are accessible.
Are you basing all this on Zwift? Because what I've seen from TR and Xert etc are primarily interval repeats in their workouts. You've also not shown any evidence that basic intervals repeats produce better results, or how to build an overall yearly plan on your own that would be better than a prescribed plan
redlude97 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 12:36 PM
  #55  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I think everyone understands the value of intervals. Not sure why you think mixing systems in a workout is an issue? It's not difficult to incorporate multiple types of intervals in a longer training session. Perhaps if you've only got 30-40 min to workout indoors then fine but if you're going out for a long ride it's common to mix it up a little more. After all you don't get to race using only one system.
Mixing systems in a single workout complicates things. It muddies the waters and can also be counterproductive especially when arbitrary. Repeats are easier to understand, progress, monitor and adjust. For example, I can more easily diagnose and resolve a problem associated with my power profile above threshold if I am doing dedicated VO2 repeats while I might have no idea what's going on if I'm following a multi-system workout involving tempo, SST, LT and VO2 and some workouts also have varying %FTP within these systems. A scientific approach requires control variables.

Occasional simulation is fine but should be performed at your own risk / opportunity cost.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 12:40 PM
  #56  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yup. Now what?
Perform interval repeats.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 12:49 PM
  #57  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Are you basing all this on Zwift? Because what I've seen from TR and Xert etc are primarily interval repeats in their workouts. You've also not shown any evidence that basic intervals repeats produce better results, or how to build an overall yearly plan on your own that would be better than a prescribed plan
Not just Zwift. I don't use Xert. I believe there is a lot more research on repeats than multi-system workouts but I could be wrong. The point, however, is how effective an approach is for the individual athlete. There's no doubt in my mind that athletes will get better results from a personalized, monitored and adjusted interval repeat approach than from a generic multi system approach.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 12:49 PM
  #58  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 24,068

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8319 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Perform interval repeats.
Elaborate. I'm lost.
WhyFi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 01:56 PM
  #59  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Elaborate. I'm lost.
https://www.amazon.com/Cyclists-Trai.../dp/1937715825
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 02:24 PM
  #60  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 24,068

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8319 Post(s)
I ain't got time to read.
WhyFi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 03:53 PM
  #61  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I ain't got time to read.
Do you have on-the-bike power?
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 04:08 PM
  #62  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 24,068

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8319 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Do you have on-the-bike power?
Yup.
WhyFi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 06:15 PM
  #63  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,667

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1546 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Not just Zwift. I don't use Xert. I believe there is a lot more research on repeats than multi-system workouts but I could be wrong. The point, however, is how effective an approach is for the individual athlete. There's no doubt in my mind that athletes will get better results from a personalized, monitored and adjusted interval repeat approach than from a generic multi system approach.
So how many athletes have you coached with/instructed to use this personalized, monitored, and adjusted interval repeat approach?

Bonus points if these athletes previously used a "generic multi-system approach" (wtf is that, anyway?) with which we can compare results.
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 06:19 PM
  #64  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,667

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1546 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Perform interval repeats.
The term "intervals" was initially used to describe the rest interval in between efforts of higher intensity.

Your continued use of the phrase "interval repeats" is akin to saying "rest repeats". It's very strange. Why don't you just say an "interval workout" or "repeats"? You know, something that actually makes sense?
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 06:24 PM
  #65  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,667

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1546 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
I'm not trying to teach people who already understand training. I'm encouraging new cyclists to understand and proactively manage their indoor training and believe interval repeats are the most accessible way to do that.
I'm still waiting for you to show that YOU actually understand training. So far you've done NOTHING to illustrate that.

For 15 years you've been on this forum and all you've done in a decade and a half is tell people to read Joe Friel's book and complain about indoor training (though you're a fan of the archaic computrainer?!).

You actually posted this in 2003?!
It seems like 95% of the questions in this forum are from people who haven't cracked a book on training.

For those who haven't, why not?

If you want to get faster, the best way to do it is to crack a book.
The fastest way to get faster is to read a book? And now it's to eschew premade training plans altogether?

I'm just...wow.
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-18, 06:24 PM
  #66  
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,649
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 836 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Mixing systems in a single workout complicates things. It muddies the waters and can also be counterproductive especially when arbitrary. Repeats are easier to understand, progress, monitor and adjust. For example, I can more easily diagnose and resolve a problem associated with my power profile above threshold if I am doing dedicated VO2 repeats while I might have no idea what's going on if I'm following a multi-system workout involving tempo, SST, LT and VO2 and some workouts also have varying %FTP within these systems. A scientific approach requires control variables.

Occasional simulation is fine but should be performed at your own risk / opportunity cost.
Here's a simple suggestion: Start with a plan, measure progress once a month, adjust as necessary. If workouts seem too easy, raise target power for the session. If workouts can't be completed, lower target power for the session. Rinse and repeat. Riders who train indoors have reported good progress with trainerroad programs.

For reasonably experienced cyclists adaptations don't occur in the short term. Measuring performance on a monthly basis should be sufficient to track progress.
gregf83 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-18, 05:44 AM
  #67  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yup.
Perform interval repeats.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-18, 05:49 AM
  #68  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
So how many athletes have you coached with/instructed to use this personalized, monitored, and adjusted interval repeat approach?

Bonus points if these athletes previously used a "generic multi-system approach" (wtf is that, anyway?) with which we can compare results.
I'd argue that the onus is on multi system workouts since there's plenty of research on interval repeats. The term interval repeats is for new cyclists to help them know that repeats are related to interval training. The new vernacular is to use the term interval to refer to work intervals. We're getting quick picky now which is a good sign.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-18, 06:09 AM
  #69  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Here's a simple suggestion: Start with a plan, measure progress once a month, adjust as necessary. If workouts seem too easy, raise target power for the session. If workouts can't be completed, lower target power for the session. Rinse and repeat. Riders who train indoors have reported good progress with trainerroad programs.

For reasonably experienced cyclists adaptations don't occur in the short term. Measuring performance on a monthly basis should be sufficient to track progress.
I'm not convinced one can know that a mixed workout is too easy until it's done. Even the first few intervals of an interval repeat workout might seem easy. However, I do advocate RPE/HR sanity checks for certain types of interval repeat workouts with caveats.

What I encourage more strongly, however, is to note the overall workout perceived effort such as that the workout was challenging but you had something left in the tank to avoid excess recovery time.

Then you can adjust the next interval repeat session accordingly which is easy to do because of the simple structure. No one is going to adjust an arbitrary mixed workout. They just move on to the next potentially failed workout. Interval repeat workouts just become more and more effective as you constantly tune them and the recovery between them.

One of my favorite things about interval repeats is that you perform them in manual ERG mode and can add/extend/split intervals as needed so you can save the quality of your workout.

Edit - And I agree about needing a starter plan as I addressed in OP. But that plan needs to be based on interval repeats (plus 1 x ~70% + TV for long endurance rides). I have several starter plans and it's also easy to convert mixed workout plans to interval repeat plans.

Last edited by fstrnu; 10-02-18 at 06:23 AM. Reason: Added to agree regarding plans
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-18, 06:19 AM
  #70  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 24,068

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8319 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Perform interval repeats.
Elaborate. I thought that this was supposed to be an easier, free alternative? Let's get it going.
WhyFi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-18, 06:46 AM
  #71  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Elaborate. I thought that this was supposed to be an easier, free alternative? Let's get it going.

fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-18, 08:07 AM
  #72  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 24,068

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8319 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post



This is gibberish - certainly not intuitive. I need to get in a workout - what am doing?

So far, I don't think that TrainerRoad has reason to be shaking in their boots.
WhyFi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-18, 08:22 AM
  #73  
DrIsotope 
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Posts: 6,128

Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn

Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3247 Post(s)
I'm thankful I'm not the only one that has no idea what those charts mean. Where's the key to unlock them? Also, looks like math, so dealbreaker.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-18, 09:25 AM
  #74  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Chart Legend:

3 x 10 / 3 = 3 x 10 minute intervals with 3 minute recovery intervals
VO2 = 105%
40/20 = 110%
For 40/20, 3 x 10 / 3 = 3 x 10 x (40/20) / 3
Rows = Weeks
Columns = Session

Examples of Initial Guidance:

Intro...

Structured training is about time at intensity.
Interval repeats = Time at intensity and are the most direct, effective and accessible way to approach training without a human coach.
Manual ERG mode workouts are convenient and versatile ; allowing you to add/extend/split/combine/pyramid intervals.
The Wahoo Fitness App is reliable, free and accurately records/exports data in any format you need.
Golden Cheetah is a free app that you can use to analyze your data when you are ready.

Regarding the plans...

Add rest and test weeks as needed.
If you are off the couch, start with first row.
Otherwise, start at row which best matches where you currently are with your fitness.
Workouts should be challenging but you should have something left in the tank to avoid excess recovery time.
If overall workout is too easy but intensity appears to be okay per RPE/HR zone sanity check then consider whether to skip a week in the progression.
If overall workout is too difficult but intensity appears to be okay per RPE/HR zone sanity check then consider (1) potential impact of fatigue (see below) including possibility that you overdid it during previous workout and (2) whether to skip backward one or more weeks in the progression.
Monitor resting heart rate, work interval heart rate, perceived effort, stress, sleep quality, energy, appetite, mood and motivation to keep tabs on fatigue.

Examples of Topics for Optional / Extra Credit / Advanced / Nuanced Guidance:
How to convert plans with multi-zone workouts
Adding/extending/splitting intervals in real time to maintain quality
Using average work interval heart rate and cardiac drift as indicators of fitness, fatigue and endurance
Training log analysis
Combo workouts
Pyramid workouts

Last edited by fstrnu; 10-02-18 at 09:33 AM. Reason: Added how to convert plans with multi-zone workouts
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-18, 11:32 AM
  #75  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,667

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1546 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
I'd argue that the onus is on multi system workouts since there's plenty of research on interval repeats. The term interval repeats is for new cyclists to help them know that repeats are related to interval training. The new vernacular is to use the term interval to refer to work intervals. We're getting quick picky now which is a good sign.
Nah, not picky. Just another item in a long list that you can't explain. Like I said, it makes no sense because you're combining two different terms. At best it's redundant, but in actuality it's conflicting.

No one's on board with this. You're just rambling. Theres zero credibility here, and there's a startling lack of knowledge and communication ability.

You mentioned Hunter Allen previously. Go read about the kitchen sink workout.
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service