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Interval Repeats are the Cycling Software Industry's Worst Nightmare

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Interval Repeats are the Cycling Software Industry's Worst Nightmare

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Old 10-02-18, 11:38 AM
  #76  
rubiksoval
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Chart Legend:

3 x 10 / 3 = 3 x 10 minute intervals with 3 minute recovery intervals
VO2 = 105%
40/20 = 110%
For 40/20, 3 x 10 / 3 = 3 x 10 x (40/20) / 3
Rows = Weeks
Columns =
You straight made those numbers up, didn't you?? 105% for vo2? 110% for tabata-style?

Seriously, man.
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Old 10-02-18, 11:46 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post



Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Chart Legend:

3 x 10 / 3 = 3 x 10 minute intervals with 3 minute recovery intervals
VO2 = 105%
40/20 = 110%
For 40/20, 3 x 10 / 3 = 3 x 10 x (40/20) / 3
Rows = Weeks
Columns = Session

Examples of Initial Guidance:

Intro...

Structured training is about time at intensity.
Interval repeats = Time at intensity and are the most direct, effective and accessible way to approach training without a human coach.
Manual ERG mode workouts are convenient and versatile ; allowing you to add/extend/split/combine/pyramid intervals.
The Wahoo Fitness App is reliable, free and accurately records/exports data in any format you need.
Golden Cheetah is a free app that you can use to analyze your data when you are ready.

Regarding the plans...

Add rest and test weeks as needed.
If you are off the couch, start with first row.
Otherwise, start at row which best matches where you currently are with your fitness.
Workouts should be challenging but you should have something left in the tank to avoid excess recovery time.
If overall workout is too easy but intensity appears to be okay per RPE/HR zone sanity check then consider whether to skip a week in the progression.
If overall workout is too difficult but intensity appears to be okay per RPE/HR zone sanity check then consider (1) potential impact of fatigue (see below) including possibility that you overdid it during previous workout and (2) whether to skip backward one or more weeks in the progression.
Monitor resting heart rate, work interval heart rate, perceived effort, stress, sleep quality, energy, appetite, mood and motivation to keep tabs on fatigue.

Examples of Topics for Optional / Extra Credit / Advanced / Nuanced Guidance:
How to convert plans with multi-zone workouts
Adding/extending/splitting intervals in real time to maintain quality
Using average work interval heart rate and cardiac drift as indicators of fitness, fatigue and endurance
Training log analysis
Combo workouts
Pyramid workouts
If this is the intuitive workout plan that is the cycling software industry's worst nightmare, I think that they're sleeping pretty easy.
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Old 10-02-18, 12:21 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You straight made those numbers up, didn't you?? 105% for vo2? 110% for tabata-style?

Seriously, man.
VO2:

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/p...aining-levels/

40/20:

https://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/fit...on-jens-voigt/
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Old 10-02-18, 12:37 PM
  #79  
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OP updated with the following:

UPDATE: MAJOR KUDOS TO ODZWIFTERS FOR THIS EXCELLENT PLAN BASED ON REPEATS!

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/odzwifters#vo2max-odzwifters-vo2max-544
Edit - Here's another (mostly) good plan:

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/vo...ooster-program

...and another:

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/zf...aching-phase-1

Last edited by fstrnu; 10-02-18 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Added plans
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Old 10-02-18, 02:47 PM
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Thanks again for proving that you know very little about physiology or training methodology. You can't even steal other people's work correctly! Might want to go reread those articles, and then read some more.

Necessary study terms: vo2 max and Tabata.

Get back to me if you need some help understanding what it says.
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Old 10-02-18, 02:57 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
OP updated with the following:



Edit - Here's another (mostly) good plan:

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/vo...ooster-program

...and another:

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/zf...aching-phase-1
How's that for irony!

"Generic plans don't work, but here's a generic plan with generic training zones"

So you're promoting a generic plan that generically prescribes intervals at 110% while claiming it's vo2 max?

After you said vo2 max was at 105%?

When in actuality most trained road cyclist's vo2 max is closer to 115-130% ftp?

Okay then!
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Old 10-02-18, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
How's that for irony!

"Generic plans don't work, but here's a generic plan with generic training zones"

So you're promoting a generic plan that generically prescribes intervals at 110% while claiming it's vo2 max?

After you said vo2 max was at 105%?

When in actuality most trained road cyclist's vo2 max is closer to 115-130% ftp?

Okay then!
VO2 max is the name of the workout and Iím starting them at 105% because that is the bottom of the zone because they are new cyclists. This is not the only guidance they will receive and there will be plenty of time for additional guidance before they get to that point. What the cyclist is capable of for the 4 x 4 interval is a far superior indicator of the right power than a percentage of FTP. For the record, this was not for you but for someone else who couldnít decode the chart so I decoded it and that criticism has vanished. Have you ever heard of the concept of seeking to understand before attempting to be understood?
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Old 10-02-18, 05:18 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
...and that criticism has vanished.
Nope.
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Old 10-02-18, 05:49 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Nope.
Oh. I gathered from the following that you had no further questions:

If this is the intuitive workout plan that is the cycling software industry's worst nightmare, I think that they're sleeping pretty easy.
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Old 10-02-18, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post


VO2 max is the name of the workout and Iím starting them at 105% because that is the bottom of the zone because they are new cyclists. This is not the only guidance they will receive and there will be plenty of time for additional guidance before they get to that point. What the cyclist is capable of for the 4 x 4 interval is a far superior indicator of the right power than a percentage of FTP. For the record, this was not for you but for someone else who couldnít decode the chart so I decoded it and that criticism has vanished. Have you ever heard of the concept of seeking to understand before attempting to be understood?
Ah, it hasn't vanished. They just haven't seen your silly response yet.

I understand perfectly. I understand that you don't understand what vo2 max workouts are about, and you certainly don't understand what a tabata workout is targeting. I understand that you parrot other people's ideas, even though you don't understand the underlying philosophies behind those, too. I understand all of that.

I also understand that, again, your entire premise is that people are idiots and don't think about their training. But ironically enough, your apparent solution is to offer up this behemoth of generic, color-coded confusion that people who actually do understand and implement proper training methodologies don't even understand.

Maybe that's your angle? Target people who don't know any better?
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Old 10-02-18, 05:59 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Oh. I gathered from the following that you had no further questions:
That's how you interpreted that? Yikes.
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Old 10-02-18, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Oh. I gathered from the following that you had no further questions:
Not a lot of reflection going on, huh?

in all seriousness, read back through this thread. People that have commented have been training at a higher-than-average level for a long time, and look at the lengths you've had to go through to simply showcase your most basic of premises. And they still don't make a lot of sense.

I'm genuinely flabbergasted that you think all of this is somehow easier or more "intuitive" than the plans offered on trainer road or other software platforms. Your charts are a mess and as I already pointed out, your workout monikers are outright wrong, both in name and description.

It seems more and more that you're looking to take on some "mentor" role, whether that be paid or not I still can't tell. But you've got to actually know your stuff before throwing this stuff out to people who take the subject matter seriously. It might fly with some newb who just bought their first bike, but at some point the ignorance is going to be called out. And you've demonstrated a lot of that so far. Might want to do a lot more reading before attempting to sell this stuff. I wasn't kidding about reading more Hunter Allen stuff, since you specifically mentioned him. From there lots of information is available on utilizing tools in WKO4 and other analysis programs. Your notion of mixed-intensities is another example of completely missing the mark, from both a theoretical perspective and the practical application (ANY group ride or race).

Anyway, four pages is too many for me in regards to this content. I'd say good luck, but, eh...

Last edited by rubiksoval; 10-02-18 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 10-02-18, 08:15 PM
  #88  
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OP updated for clarity
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Old 10-02-18, 08:39 PM
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Hilarious.
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Old 10-03-18, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
OP updated for clarity
now your title doesn't fit with how much you had to backtrack. Look most of us agree in general with what you say, the basis of training is interval repeats. But plenty of people have gotten plenty strong with mixed workouts like on TR as well as pretty much every cyclist who trains outside where terrain is varied. I dont think there is any research or much anecdotal evidence that it's totally detrimental to intervals that it's such a nightmare.
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Old 10-03-18, 11:15 AM
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Besides doing a lot more reading, I suggest the OP do a lot more riding, working up to something like a hilly double century event or Gran Fondo for instance. Or a crit or road race or hanging with the A group. Something that tests training in ways other than using the training itself as a test. Or just getting the weekly road mileage up over 150. There's a lot to be learned simply from that last thing. Riding well, fast, and long is the sought result, not higher FTP in an interval. That last is only one means to an end.
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Old 10-03-18, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Not a lot of reflection going on, huh?

in all seriousness, read back through this thread. People that have commented have been training at a higher-than-average level for a long time, and look at the lengths you've had to go through to simply showcase your most basic of premises. And they still don't make a lot of sense.

I'm genuinely flabbergasted that you think all of this is somehow easier or more "intuitive" than the plans offered on trainer road or other software platforms. Your charts are a mess and as I already pointed out, your workout monikers are outright wrong, both in name and description.

It seems more and more that you're looking to take on some "mentor" role, whether that be paid or not I still can't tell. But you've got to actually know your stuff before throwing this stuff out to people who take the subject matter seriously. It might fly with some newb who just bought their first bike, but at some point the ignorance is going to be called out. And you've demonstrated a lot of that so far. Might want to do a lot more reading before attempting to sell this stuff. I wasn't kidding about reading more Hunter Allen stuff, since you specifically mentioned him. From there lots of information is available on utilizing tools in WKO4 and other analysis programs. Your notion of mixed-intensities is another example of completely missing the mark, from both a theoretical perspective and the practical application (ANY group ride or race).

Anyway, four pages is too many for me in regards to this content. I'd say good luck, but, eh...
As an investor / venture capitalist, I do not see what problem OP's solution (I am being kind in calling it a solution) is solving. What pain is he taking away from customers? Ease of use, better results (would help with a testimonial or third party report), lower cost, more intuitive, use on many software platforms, better mousetrap and etc. He claims his solution, interval repeats, is the cycling software industry's worst nightmare. What intellectual property is available on interval repeats? Why would I invest money to create a nightmare for someone else? If he is right but does not have IP protection, the other competitors will just copy and add his stuff to their platform and the nightmare is over.

This is a pass that does not make it past the first year associates screen. The title on the business plan kills the deal. Sorry. However, it is always good when people put "stuff" out there for critique. For that, I give a kudo.

Last edited by Hermes; 10-03-18 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 10-03-18, 12:04 PM
  #93  
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What have I backtracked on? I thought I was doubling down. I know OP still needs work but is worse than I thought if backtracking is the impression.

Some training outside is a necessary evil. My comments are about structured training indoors. I may need to clarify that too but thought OK because this is indoor forum but in retrospect that is not enough.
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Old 10-03-18, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
As an investor / venture capitalist, I do not see what problem OP's solution (I am being kind in calling it a solution) is solving. What pain is he taking away from customers? Ease of use, better results (would help with a testimonial or third party report), lower cost, more intuitive, use on many software platforms, better mousetrap and etc. He claims his solution, interval repeats, is the cycling software industry's worst nightmare. What intellectual property is available on interval repeats? Why would I invest money to create a nightmare for someone else? If he is right but does not have IP protection, the other competitors will just copy and add his stuff to their platform and the nightmare is over.

This is a pass that does not make it past the first year associates screen. The title on the business plan kills the deal. Sorry. However, it is always good when people put "stuff" out there for critique. For that, I give a kudo.
Thanks for this. I sincerely believe what I am saying but clearly have some work to do with communicating it, especially to different audiences. I think your questions will help with this.

Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
I do not see what problem OP's solution is solving
I believe that the effectiveness and accessibility of interval repeats can empower athletes to personalize their training in order to realize better results due to the principle of individualization.

I believe that personalizing a simpler approach will outperform complex approaches which are one-size-fits-all.

This is because athletes have different goals, fitness levels, schedules, problems, load/rate tolerances, power curves, potential for improvement, etc.

Additionally, free solutions exist in the form of publicly available training plans and free software like the Wahoo Fitness App and Golden Cheetah.

The challenge is to convince athletes of this in less than 30 seconds and develop a way to get them started quickly without having to think too much, at least initially.
Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
What pain is he taking away from customers? Ease of use, better results (would help with a testimonial or third party report), lower cost, more intuitive, use on many software platforms, better mousetrap and etc.
Pain = Being lost and dependent on vendors to answer questions about how to workaround inevitable problems. Also pain in the wallet.

Also, it would be hard to find something easier to use than the Wahoo Fitness App. Get on the bike, perform your repeats, get off the bike. See above regarding better results.

Understanding your training by embracing interval repeats makes everything more intuitive. I'm still working on how to present this but am getting closer but am still struggling with how to make it more succinct for a busy audience.

The Wahoo Fitness App exports data in any format you need and also directly integrates with many platforms. It is also a better mousetrap in that it is reliable, keeps your technology footprint small, and keeps you out of support forums asking questions about how to workaround inflexible software. It also allows you to add/extend/split/combine/pyramid intervals in real time.
Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
He claims his solution, interval repeats, is the cycling software industry's worst nightmare. What intellectual property is available on interval repeats? Why would I invest money to create a nightmare for someone else? If he is right but does not have IP protection, the other competitors will just copy and add his stuff to their platform and the nightmare is over.
There IS no IP on interval repeats, which is awesome. IMO, there is also very little or no intellectual property on effective training. As far as I know, all the secrets are out there or at least they are certainly not hidden in generic plans. That's the crime I'm trying to prosecute; that athletes are blind to all this freely available information because of all the obfuscation and baloney being peddled by industry. Let's democratize all this and vendors can move on to true innovation if they want to buy a new bike every month with our money. Nothing would make me happier than vendors embracing interval repeats. Just imagine how much cool stuff could be built to help personalize and make training more responsive!

I'd offer to share a video I made recently on this privately with you but it's very long (35 minutes) so I'm working on summarizing and breaking it up into 30-90 second chunks which would be digestible and then hit athletes with some longer videos once they're interested.
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Old 12-07-18, 10:53 AM
  #95  
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OP has been re-written based on input. Thanks everyone!
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Old 12-07-18, 04:01 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
OP has been re-written based on input. Thanks everyone!
Input?! Don't blame anyone for that mess. You sound exactly like one of those people that stand on street corners and scream nonsense at anyone that passes by.

What a charlatan.
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Old 12-08-18, 12:11 AM
  #97  
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Fartlek. I'm just gonna do fartleks.

Because it most closely resembles actual group rides.

And I like saying fartlek.

TV Fartlek.
When I was binge watching Orphan Black, fartlek closely followed Helena's pattern of mayhem and eating. Every time Helena maims or kills someone or gets a refund, I sprint. When she eats, I loafcycle.

Or watch Ocean's 11, the remake. Every time Brad Pitt eats, you sprint. Good workout because he's eating in every dang scene.

For a really brutal workout, watch reruns of NYPD Blue. Every time they do that shaky random pan-camera thing, sprint. Rest only when the camera work isn't nausea inducing.
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