Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Interval Repeats are the Cycling Software Industry's Worst Nightmare

Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Interval Repeats are the Cycling Software Industry's Worst Nightmare

Reply

Old 01-02-19, 01:09 PM
  #101  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
This will beat any canned FTP plan:

4 x 4 at maximum sustainable intensity (add intervals if needed to avoid leaving too much in the tank)

4 x 8 at maximum sustainable intensity (do more if you can)

1 x 90 at whatever intensity will produce 5-10% cardiac drift (you should be looking forward to the end of the workout with about 20% to go)

Use RPE, HR and cardiac drift to find the frequency with/at which you can effectively cope/adapt.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-19, 01:31 PM
  #102  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,663

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1544 Post(s)
You realize those are three of the most generic, canned workouts you can do, right?
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-19, 02:50 PM
  #103  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Yes I do.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-19, 03:27 PM
  #104  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,806
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1499 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
This will beat any canned FTP plan:

4 x 4 at maximum sustainable intensity (add intervals if needed to avoid leaving too much in the tank)

4 x 8 at maximum sustainable intensity (do more if you can)

1 x 90 at whatever intensity will produce 5-10% cardiac drift (you should be looking forward to the end of the workout with about 20% to go)

Use RPE, HR and cardiac drift to find the frequency with/at which you can effectively cope/adapt.
Do you have any numbers/data from you or your athletes that show the gains from this approach?
redlude97 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-19, 05:49 PM
  #105  
newduguy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Do you have any numbers/data from you or your athletes that show the gains from this approach?
I'd be interested in this as well. And are there control groups doing the "any canned FTP plan" that will show how much better the OP's canned FTP plan is?

This will beat any canned FTP plan:

4 x 4 at maximum sustainable intensity (add intervals if needed to avoid leaving too much in the tank)

4 x 8 at maximum sustainable intensity (do more if you can)

1 x 90 at whatever intensity will produce 5-10% cardiac drift (you should be looking forward to the end of the workout with about 20% to go)

Use RPE, HR and cardiac drift to find the frequency with/at which you can effectively cope/adapt.
newduguy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-19, 07:52 PM
  #106  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
As rubiksoval pointed out, there's nothing special about these workouts at all and there are thousands upon thousands of cyclists performing these workouts. They merely hit the three energy systems many of us want to include in any FTP improvement plan. But it's not about the workout structure at all. It's about the principle of individualization. Cyclists have different strengths, load/rate tolerances, available time, personal life schedules, training interruptions, illlness, etc. etc. etc. MSI merely personalizes intensity in a self-regulating way instead of basing workouts on FTP and then troubleshooting why they are too hard or too easy. It's much more effective to simply skip that convoluting step and go straight to the solution which is letting performance be your guide. And load monitoring to ensure you are successfully coping/adapting to the program is just common sense.

Following a one size fits all schedule that attempts to predict where you are going to be on Wednesday six weeks from now is just silly; but it sells a lot of software. If people had any idea how simple this stuff can be they'd never pay for overly complex and arbitrary plans intended to appear to be sophisticated. And there are thousands and thousands of cyclists who use their performance as their guides just as I outline above. Does it matter whether you do 4 x 8 or x 2 x 20? Not really; although there are many studies on various interval structures and their relative effectiveness for various populations. But studies are always flawed. If you want to do 2 x 20s then do them. I use 4 x 8 because they work and are more pleasant. What's most important is that the body receives the message that it needs to adapt. And that's where the third piece of the puzzle comes in and that is that you need to add/extend/split intervals as needed to ensure proper stimulus or preserve workout quality. If you don't, you will almost certainly be working too hard or not hard enough. This is all really common sense but requires athletes to listen to their bodies instead of listening to vendors.

One of the best things a new cyclist can do is listen to advise from other (non-cycling) endurance sports; which still has coherent advice available whilst the training industrial complex has completely brainwashed cyclists (at least most who spend more time in internet forums than training).
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-19, 09:43 PM
  #107  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,806
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1499 Post(s)
So the answer is no then
redlude97 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-19, 07:51 AM
  #108  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,663

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1544 Post(s)
The answer is always no, which is undoubtedly the result of his completely making things up based on misinterpretations of other people's work.

"Thousands and thousands of cyclists" doing this "program" that he's talking about, yet you'll never meet one of them, and he apparently doesn't know any of them.

But of course, this "individualized" stuff that shows absolutely zero individualization is vastly superior to trainerroad and zwift programs, and everyone that uses those programs is simply lazy and ignorant and whatever else he's so colorfully described. Oh, and brainwashed.
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-19, 08:25 AM
  #109  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
You mean like this lol ==> https://blog.trainerroad.com/how-6-c...82-on-average/

Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Do you have any numbers/data from you or your athletes that show the gains from this approach?
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-19, 08:26 AM
  #110  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
You continue to confuse "workout" with "program". It's really not that complicated.

Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
The answer is always no, which is undoubtedly the result of his completely making things up based on misinterpretations of other people's work.

"Thousands and thousands of cyclists" doing this "program" that he's talking about, yet you'll never meet one of them, and he apparently doesn't know any of them.

But of course, this "individualized" stuff that shows absolutely zero individualization is vastly superior to trainerroad and zwift programs, and everyone that uses those programs is simply lazy and ignorant and whatever else he's so colorfully described. Oh, and brainwashed.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-19, 08:59 AM
  #111  
OBoile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,086
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 620 Post(s)
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You realize those are three of the most generic, canned workouts you can do, right?
I think what he's trying to say is that doing these workouts each week will basically be as good as any canned coaching program, so why bother paying for said program?

Edit to add: I'm not offering any personal opinion... just trying to clear up any confusion in the discussion.
OBoile is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-19, 10:13 AM
  #112  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,663

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1544 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
You continue to confuse "workout" with "program". It's really not that complicated.
Apologies. Let's try again:

Thousand of people do these workouts (which are quite different and likely part of an actual program that works and makes sense for their needs, like the one you linked to above)

No one does your "program" and you have no results from it.


More accurate?

Last edited by rubiksoval; 01-03-19 at 10:21 AM.
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-19, 11:44 AM
  #113  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,806
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1499 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
could you stop being purposefully obtuse and just answer the question?
redlude97 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-19, 12:16 PM
  #114  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
4 x 4 at MSI
4 x 8 at MSI
Perform 1 x 90 at whatever intensity will produce 5-10% cardiac drift

These self-regulating workouts achieve personalized stimulus and progression. MSI is the maximum power that you can maintain for all four intervals of each workout. Power increases as you get stronger while interval structures ensure proper energy system targeting for lactate threshold improvement and endurance maintenance.

Workout and rest week frequency is determined via load monitoring. Monitoring of the internal to external load ratio and cardiac drift allows determination of the athlete’s ability to successfully cope with / adapt to the program.

A decreasing internal to external load ratio indicates improved fitness and the need to increase workout intensity in order to continually challenge the body. Disassociation of internal load indicators, such as an increase in RPE or cardiac which coincides with a decrease in average work interval heart rate, indicates suppressed heart rate caused by fatigue.

As recovery quickens with improved fitness, which will become evident from trend analysis of external and internal load metrics, frequency of workouts and rest weeks will be able to increase and decrease, respectively.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-19, 12:22 PM
  #115  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,806
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1499 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
4 x 4 at MSI
4 x 8 at MSI
Perform 1 x 90 at whatever intensity will produce 5-10% cardiac drift

These self-regulating workouts achieve personalized stimulus and progression. MSI is the maximum power that you can maintain for all four intervals of each workout. Power increases as you get stronger while interval structures ensure proper energy system targeting for lactate threshold improvement and endurance maintenance.

Workout and rest week frequency is determined via load monitoring. Monitoring of the internal to external load ratio and cardiac drift allows determination of the athlete’s ability to successfully cope with / adapt to the program.

A decreasing internal to external load ratio indicates improved fitness and the need to increase workout intensity in order to continually challenge the body. Disassociation of internal load indicators, such as an increase in RPE or cardiac which coincides with a decrease in average work interval heart rate, indicates suppressed heart rate caused by fatigue.

As recovery quickens with improved fitness, which will become evident from trend analysis of external and internal load metrics, frequency of workouts and rest weeks will be able to increase and decrease, respectively.
could you stop being purposefully obtuse and just answer the question?
redlude97 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-19, 12:35 PM
  #116  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4663/6/2/44/pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nsus_Statement


https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/a...nd-decoupling/

https://fascatcoaching.com/tips/cycling-intervals/
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-19, 07:03 PM
  #117  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 23,982

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 275 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8273 Post(s)
Hi! What's this thread about?
WhyFi is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-19, 03:33 PM
  #118  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Hi! What's this thread about?
Rhetorical question I'm sure but summary is that software can't compete with humans.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-19, 04:38 PM
  #119  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 23,982

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 275 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8273 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Rhetorical question I'm sure but summary is that software can't compete with humans.
So your generic recommendation of 4x4s, 4x8s, etc is something that available software can't match? Makes sense.
WhyFi is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-19, 06:32 PM
  #120  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
So your generic recommendation of 4x4s, 4x8s, etc is something that available software can't match? Makes sense.
I've already answer this here:

Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
As rubiksoval pointed out, there's nothing special about these workouts at all and there are thousands upon thousands of cyclists performing these workouts. They merely hit the three energy systems many of us want to include in any FTP improvement plan. But it's not about the workout structure at all. It's about the principle of individualization. Cyclists have different strengths, load/rate tolerances, available time, personal life schedules, training interruptions, illlness, etc. etc. etc. MSI merely personalizes intensity in a self-regulating way instead of basing workouts on FTP and then troubleshooting why they are too hard or too easy. It's much more effective to simply skip that convoluting step and go straight to the solution which is letting performance be your guide. And load monitoring to ensure you are successfully coping/adapting to the program is just common sense.

Following a one size fits all schedule that attempts to predict where you are going to be on Wednesday six weeks from now is just silly; but it sells a lot of software. If people had any idea how simple this stuff can be they'd never pay for overly complex and arbitrary plans intended to appear to be sophisticated. And there are thousands and thousands of cyclists who use their performance as their guides just as I outline above. Does it matter whether you do 4 x 8 or x 2 x 20? Not really; although there are many studies on various interval structures and their relative effectiveness for various populations. But studies are always flawed. If you want to do 2 x 20s then do them. I use 4 x 8 because they work and are more pleasant. What's most important is that the body receives the message that it needs to adapt. And that's where the third piece of the puzzle comes in and that is that you need to add/extend/split intervals as needed to ensure proper stimulus or preserve workout quality. If you don't, you will almost certainly be working too hard or not hard enough. This is all really common sense but requires athletes to listen to their bodies instead of listening to vendors.

One of the best things a new cyclist can do is listen to advise from other (non-cycling) endurance sports; which still has coherent advice available whilst the training industrial complex has completely brainwashed cyclists (at least most who spend more time in internet forums than training).
​​​​​​​
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-19, 07:18 PM
  #121  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 23,982

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 275 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8273 Post(s)
That answer looks considerably longer than "yes" or "no."
WhyFi is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-19, 07:36 PM
  #122  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
No
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-19, 07:54 PM
  #123  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 23,982

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 275 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8273 Post(s)
Step 1: do a 4x4 session
Step 2: goto Step 1

There. I just wrote some software that equals your recommendations.
WhyFi is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-19, 08:47 PM
  #124  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
No
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-19, 09:57 AM
  #125  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
OP re-written to incorporate feedback. Thanks all
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service