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Fat Old Clydesdale Training Plan

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Fat Old Clydesdale Training Plan

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Old 01-11-19, 06:56 AM
  #26  
fstrnu
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I like the Friel one, too, but thought he used 30 minutes and take the average of the final 20 minutes? Maybe that's an older version.

There's also...

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zu...SHOLD_TEST.pdf

...which I assumed was based on the Friel method.
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Old 01-15-19, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
I like the Friel one, too, but thought he used 30 minutes and take the average of the final 20 minutes? Maybe that's an older version.

There's also...

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zu...SHOLD_TEST.pdf

...which I assumed was based on the Friel method.
I think you're correct, he did ask for it as you just said. It's that way in his Indoor Training book by Dirk Friel, and in the 5th edition of Cyclists' Training Bible, which is pretty recent.
But if I read the one you suggest from British Cycling, I think it's the same as what I just read in Friel's book. Would you not agree?

EDIT 16Jan2019: Sorry, I checked my copy of CTB is Edition 4 not Edition 5. My comment was correct for edition 4 but I can't say if the recommendation in Edition 5 is the same.

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Old 01-15-19, 06:10 PM
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In Friel's 5th edition(pg 47-48) he refers to coggen's 20 min test version that is 95% of the avg hr. The 30 min test with the avg over the last 20 mins you use 100% of the value.
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Old 01-16-19, 06:43 AM
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I'm no expert. I'm doing LTHR, not LTP so I'm not using Coggan at this moment. Sorry, I have Friel's 4th, not 5th. On page 48, fourth paragraph from the bottom, he says "Another simple test that can be done alone..." and proceeds to describe the same test as Dirk Friel. He does not say to use a 95% fudge factor for LTHR, and neither does Dirk Friel. In these older books I've seen correction percentages used with tests for LTP, not LTHR.

Any case I'm riding on the trainer for the next few days, then I'll try the test using the Dirk Friel indoor method. I'll repeat it a few weeks down the road. I'm just at the beginning of base training.

It may be a slightly older method, but it helped a lot of good riders get to where they are now, and I've seen no good technical argument against it except perhaps those related to power measurement versus heart rate measurement. I'm committed to HR for this base phase.

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Old 01-16-19, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I think you're correct, he did ask for it as you just said. It's that way in his Indoor Training book by Dirk Friel, and in the 5th edition of Cyclists' Training Bible, which is pretty recent. But if I read the one you suggest from British Cycling, I think it's the same as what I just read in Friel's book. Would you not agree?
Yep. That's my recollection.
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Old 01-16-19, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I'm no expert. I'm doing LTHR, not LTP so I'm not using Coggan at this moment. Sorry, I have Friel's 4th, not 5th. On 48, fourth paragraph from the bottom, he says "Another simple test that can be done alone..." and proceeds to describe the same test as Dirk Friel. He does not say to use a 95% fudge factor for LTHR, and neither does Dirk Friel. In these older books I've seen correction percentages used with tests for LTP.

Any case I'm riding on the trainer for the next few days, then I'll try the test using the Dirk Friel indoor method. I'll repeat it a few weeks down the road. I'm just at the beginning of base training.

It may be a slightly older method, but it helped a lot of good riders get to where they are now, and I've seen no good technical argument against it except perhaps those related to power measurement versus heart rate measurement. I'm committed to HR for this base phase.
For me, the human engine is very fickle and has a broad range of force responses over time. My car can deliver 415 hp at 7000 rpm every day but my output varies depending on emotions, fatigue, blood volume, dehydration, amount of sleep, mental distractions and etc etc. I do not beat myself up if my results vary. So any given day, a test may have a different yield. If I get a low yield day, well, it is just that.

I have days that are chainless and I think I can do anything and it feels like I have a throttle on the bike. If you get a chainless day on your test day, you will test great. if you get a day that it feels like someone hooked an anchor to the bike or an 800 gorilla jumped on your back then - no so good. Have fun with the training.
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Old 01-16-19, 03:32 PM
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Thanks for those thoughts, Hermes! I've been thinking some of the same things, due to my experience. Numerous years ago I tried self-administering RAMP tests on trainer or on the road, and I ran into problems managing the process while trying to pedal my ass off uniformly up until when the bell rings. On the road, I'm addressing the road and its hills. If I transition to a rise when a trigger point arrives, I can't just shift instantly - there's always an "o mi god o mi god!" moment when I need to remember what button to press on the Polar HR watch, without running through upcoming potholes or otherwise losing steam. So first, the Elemnt has a simpler interface for this task than a Polar watch with four buttons and a sequential menu. Second, when I start z1/2 riding tonight to kick off my base season, I'll have to essentially practice handling the Elemnt as well as acclimating to the saddle position, and all the other "return to riding" adjustments. Whenever I finish a sequence I'll take the data, but I don't expect to succeed with putting out the requisite effort until I've made a few tries. Then I can add periodic re-testing to the routine during the period when I learn more efficient pedaling based on fat-burning. I really want to do Base properly this year. I usually just end up jumping on the bike and going out to ride with my wife or buds. Usually this totally breaks the constraints of early base period, and the recovery steals 1 to several days of riding.

I really want to see if lactate-free pedaling at the beginning can work well.
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Old 01-19-19, 08:09 AM
  #33  
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To the OP. There is a lot of great advice here. As a 66 year old who started back cycling less than two years ago let me chime in. A few years ago I was north of 235 lbs. When I took up cycling again I was down to 185. Today 174. Goal is 160. No matter how fit you become, how much you ride you can still be overweight and even gain weight so food managment is a big thing. What works for me is no glutten, very little sugar/carbs, watch the booze consumption and a lot of common sense. Some foods will light the fire of your appetite (they are designed to do this ) so avoid them as much as possible. With exercise you will burn more calories. Just remember you still can overeat. Now...
FIRST GET TO YOUR DOCTOR and make sure your ticker is fine for exercising. Now if all OK, I agree 15 minutes at 110HR will help you get use to the bike and get the blood flowing but does little to meet your goal of a century or rapid gains in fitness. You need a little more time/stress to get in shape and enjoy your first century. You can be overweight and still ride well in a century. I see this in every group ride I do. Where do you live? In my case I'm in the mountain of PA. and cannot ride anywhere without 9 to 12 percent grades and 1,500 ft in elevation. I also have a home in NJ, dead flat riding so the key here is to spend some time in higher HR zones without anaerobic street, at first. My first mt. riding at home consisted of a lot of stop/walk which was very humbling. As a 20 somthing I never got off the bike. Your progress happens OFF THE BIKE so listen to your body. My first rides back in the mountains required two/three days off the bike. When you push hard you need to rest hard! But push hard at times you must.
Get in group rides ASAP. This will motivate you and allow for you to train more IMHO. You also can be inspired and also inspire others. I did a lot of group riding this summer and here is what I found out. In the flat land of NJ, at my current fitness level, my 50 mile group B to B+ rides needed very little effort, about an average of 110 watts on my power meter. Upstate PA a different story of about 145 to 150 watts. Still for me to improve now I'll need to push more. My Garmin says so!!
Currently I do have a wahoo kicker and do Zwift. I'm doing a training plan now which is meant to have you get better and sufferfest is an appropriate term! . I have found I have needed to drop my FTP 10% and still cannot make some of the training plans particularly 4x12 minute over/unders but thats exactly my point. My choice. I'm now fine to ride centuries and have an 80 mile ride in at 18.4 MPH average so I can still be a little overweigh, and and be an OK cyclist. Here the point.
Some people giving you advice are highly trained athletes alway pushing for "the next level" and then there are the rest of us, so where you go is up to you. This is the beauty of the bicycle......make it what you want and it will deliver it to you. You get out of it exactly what you put in and that alone is up to you. Most of all ENJOY! Good luck with your first century goal.
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Old 01-29-19, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ald1 View Post
To the OP. There is a lot of great advice here. As a 66 year old who started back cycling less than two years ago let me chime in. A few years ago I was north of 235 lbs. When I took up cycling again I was down to 185. Today 174. Goal is 160. No matter how fit you become, how much you ride you can still be overweight and even gain weight so food managment is a big thing. What works for me is no glutten, very little sugar/carbs, watch the booze consumption and a lot of common sense. Some foods will light the fire of your appetite (they are designed to do this ) so avoid them as much as possible. With exercise you will burn more calories. Just remember you still can overeat. Now...
FIRST GET TO YOUR DOCTOR and make sure your ticker is fine for exercising. Now if all OK, I agree 15 minutes at 110HR will help you get use to the bike and get the blood flowing but does little to meet your goal of a century or rapid gains in fitness. You need a little more time/stress to get in shape and enjoy your first century. You can be overweight and still ride well in a century. I see this in every group ride I do. Where do you live? In my case I'm in the mountain of PA. and cannot ride anywhere without 9 to 12 percent grades and 1,500 ft in elevation. I also have a home in NJ, dead flat riding so the key here is to spend some time in higher HR zones without anaerobic street, at first. My first mt. riding at home consisted of a lot of stop/walk which was very humbling. As a 20 somthing I never got off the bike. Your progress happens OFF THE BIKE so listen to your body. My first rides back in the mountains required two/three days off the bike. When you push hard you need to rest hard! But push hard at times you must.
Get in group rides ASAP. This will motivate you and allow for you to train more IMHO. You also can be inspired and also inspire others. I did a lot of group riding this summer and here is what I found out. In the flat land of NJ, at my current fitness level, my 50 mile group B to B+ rides needed very little effort, about an average of 110 watts on my power meter. Upstate PA a different story of about 145 to 150 watts. Still for me to improve now I'll need to push more. My Garmin says so!!
Currently I do have a wahoo kicker and do Zwift. I'm doing a training plan now which is meant to have you get better and sufferfest is an appropriate term! . I have found I have needed to drop my FTP 10% and still cannot make some of the training plans particularly 4x12 minute over/unders but thats exactly my point. My choice. I'm now fine to ride centuries and have an 80 mile ride in at 18.4 MPH average so I can still be a little overweigh, and and be an OK cyclist. Here the point.
Some people giving you advice are highly trained athletes alway pushing for "the next level" and then there are the rest of us, so where you go is up to you. This is the beauty of the bicycle......make it what you want and it will deliver it to you. You get out of it exactly what you put in and that alone is up to you. Most of all ENJOY! Good luck with your first century goal.
Can you comment on what foods do stimulate appetite, and how they do that? Did you find any research on it? I think this could help me a lot.

DoooooH! Just looked on Google, it's the simple white carbohydrates, what we used to call "starches." Correlate to glycemic index?

Google again! High GI foods are the ones that stimulate appetite, though I can't say there aren't exceptions.

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Old 01-29-19, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Can you comment on what foods do stimulate appetite, and how they do that? Did you find any research on it? I think this could help me a lot.

DoooooH! Just looked on Google, it's the simple white carbohydrates, what we used to call "starches." Correlate to glycemic index?
Yep. IMHO Glycemic index is a great indicator. Processed salt/sugery snacks are designed to stimulate appetite. Are you old enough to remember the snake food ad campain "betcha you can't eat just one?" There are a lot of scientists working hard to make that trueI Eating an orange and eating some candy bar with equal calories will stimulate appetite differently. IMHO thats why the low carb high fat works for some as it keeps cravings down. Also their is the habit/comfort/stress eating. Advice, though somewhat hard, that you can't go wrong with is never eat anything out of a box or bag. Get to a market and pick out your stuff and bag it yourself.
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Old 01-29-19, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Thanks for those thoughts, Hermes! I've been thinking some of the same things, due to my experience. Numerous years ago I tried self-administering RAMP tests on trainer or on the road, and I ran into problems managing the process while trying to pedal my ass off uniformly up until when the bell rings. On the road, I'm addressing the road and its hills. If I transition to a rise when a trigger point arrives, I can't just shift instantly - there's always an "o mi god o mi god!" moment when I need to remember what button to press on the Polar HR watch, without running through upcoming potholes or otherwise losing steam. So first, the Elemnt has a simpler interface for this task than a Polar watch with four buttons and a sequential menu. Second, when I start z1/2 riding tonight to kick off my base season, I'll have to essentially practice handling the Elemnt as well as acclimating to the saddle position, and all the other "return to riding" adjustments. Whenever I finish a sequence I'll take the data, but I don't expect to succeed with putting out the requisite effort until I've made a few tries. Then I can add periodic re-testing to the routine during the period when I learn more efficient pedaling based on fat-burning. I really want to do Base properly this year. I usually just end up jumping on the bike and going out to ride with my wife or buds. Usually this totally breaks the constraints of early base period, and the recovery steals 1 to several days of riding.

I really want to see if lactate-free pedaling at the beginning can work well.
My advice is to touch your electronic device as little as possible. I have a riding buddy who broke his femur when he hit a parked car while fiddling with his Garmin. I have mine set to show HR and "distance to next point" in map mode and I just leave it there. I'll look at my stats when I upload. I do intervals without messing with the device. When I do hill repeats, I just switch to a page that shows elapsed time, HR and cadence and have at it. I never do formal intervals during an ordinary road ride.

If you want to base train that way, go by breathing only, keeping below VT1. See: https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-c...ng-vt1-and-vt2
Below VT1, I can comfortably recite the alphabet in one breath. I have a HR that's usually associated with VT1, but HR varies a bit so I actually use VT1 for that intensity.
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Old 01-29-19, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
My advice is to touch your electronic device as little as possible. I have a riding buddy who broke his femur when he hit a parked car while fiddling with his Garmin. I have mine set to show HR and "distance to next point" in map mode and I just leave it there. I'll look at my stats when I upload. I do intervals without messing with the device. When I do hill repeats, I just switch to a page that shows elapsed time, HR and cadence and have at it. I never do formal intervals during an ordinary road ride.

If you want to base train that way, go by breathing only, keeping below VT1. See: https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-c...ng-vt1-and-vt2
Below VT1, I can comfortably recite the alphabet in one breath. I have a HR that's usually associated with VT1, but HR varies a bit so I actually use VT1 for that intensity.
Yes, I can appreciate the danger - I want to focus on pedalling my butt off, not on new road hazards. Plus the bike I'm riding on it recently had its head angle changed (HT and DT were changed to replace kinked ones, and the steering is more twitchy), another think to adjust to. But it has the best gearing. I'm still working up to trying a 30 minute TT test on my trainer, so no immediate risk. And I can practice handling the electronics. The Wahoo has many more features than a Polar HR watch, but it has a simpler interface. If I set up the screen with what I want, it should end up being just 1-key commands.

But I'll take a good look at the Acefitness site.

This is good stuff to take care of in the Northern winter.
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