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Base Training Program I'm Following

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Base Training Program I'm Following

Old 02-02-19, 08:30 AM
  #26  
fstrnu
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So if you have 30 hours per week to train and can tolerate it then do so. If you have 2 hours per week to train you won't get anything out of low intensity. Additionally, we are all at different fitness levels and with different ultimate goals. For base, if I am experienced and normally handle a high volume of training outdoors but don't have the time or inclination to spend that much time indoors, then I must increase intensity. On the other hand if I am more bound by my ability than my schedule then I can do more volume at lower intensity. As I said, if you can do four hours on the training then go for it. For example, if I am not very fit then the five day plan above is not for me. If I am very fit and have time then possibly none of these plans are for me; especially if I can ride outside. But if the time I have available lines up well with the load/intensity I can handle then that is a good thing. One of the plans above will work for most athletes who are training indoors even if they are not time bound because most don't want to spend hours and hours on a trainer. But for time bound riders then you're all set above.

New cyclists without miles in their legs or intensity under their belt can (1) ride at low intensity / aerobic threshold for a duration that elicits 5-10% cardiac drift until you are able to ride your target event duration with 5-7% drift then (2) introduce an increasing proportion of temp work over several weeks and then will be ready for sweet spot + plans above.
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Old 02-02-19, 08:46 AM
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But what is your goal?

This might give us context.
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Old 02-02-19, 12:19 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
New cyclists without miles in their legs or intensity under their belt can (1) ride at low intensity / aerobic threshold for a duration that elicits 5-10% cardiac drift until you are able to ride your target event duration with 5-7% drift then (2) introduce an increasing proportion of temp work over several weeks and then will be ready for sweet spot + plans above.
Well that sounds horrendously boring.

Clearly you've never coached a sentient being before.
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Old 02-02-19, 07:33 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Are you saying that in any indoor training program, the trainee always substitutes brief HIT for lower zone rides, and there is some sort of fully valid consistency rule for this? I haven't done a lot training though I've started most seasons with high hopes, but I don't think i've read that. As far as training on indoor training, I've read Dirk Friel's book on indoor training. To me, and what I'm reading in Chapple, is that beginnign base for me needs to be gentle for a week or so to get my legs to remember how to work. For example, right now if my cadence goes above 60 my feet don't follow the pedals well - after 50 ish years of good pedaling i'm kinda surprised. I'm going to revisit my saddle positioning, but ... This is nowhere near the point where I can go into HIT.

For my timing horizon, as Machka noted the need for, my target is a Wisconsin metric on rolling hills, 4000 feet of climbing (1220 meters), says my calculator, in mid-September. So I have some time to work on these issues. Depending how I do, I could target a 60-miler in Michigan rollers, less total climbing than the Wisconsin ride, and that would be mid-July. My biggest quantified climb is 500 feet, from Niagara on the Lake to the level of Niagara Falls, riding along the Niagara River on the Ontario side.

So there are some goals, on my side.
Agree. You want to look at my ignored thread: Winter fun workout on rollers or trainer
That's exactly what you want to do. Cycling is a pedaling sport and you want to get really good at pedaling first, like you say, before adding effort. Warm up, put it in a very low gear, and pedal as fast as you can without bouncing until your legs hurt, cool down. Repeat once a week. Besides that, just get on the thing and pedal at a steady state at an effort where you can just recite the alphabet in one breath, at as fast a cadence as is comfortable, again until your legs start to hurt, say 3 X week in addition to the FastPedal. First get good at doing this. You'll be amazed at how well this works.
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Old 02-02-19, 08:35 PM
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Dude, if you are clipped into the pedals and your shoes fit and are snug, there is no way your feet cannot follow the pedals. I would like to help but I am lost with that comment.

Also, bike fit starts with the feet which are the most sensitive to proper placement meaning they have to be perfect in order for your knees to track. The ball of the foot should be over the center of the pedal axel. Some cyclists need adjustment with Vargus wedges to tilt the foot in the shoe.

Also, if the saddle is too high, it can inhibit spinning faster.
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Old 02-02-19, 10:11 PM
  #31  
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Appreciated, Hermes. Don't be lost, it's not that hard. I don't clip in. I don't own clip pedals, cleats or shoes and I never have. I've been on platforms with clips/straps since being a kid, well we won't discuss age. The pedals have been Sheffield Strada (Quill), Campy Strada (Quill), Campy C-record Strada (platform), Shimano 600 6207 platform, Lyotard Berthet platforms, and MKS platforms. My feet have rarely not tracked the pedals, but when they have not, I revisit saddle position. My feet are usually a little pronated, but not enough to cause heel impacts. I can also try tighter straps (incrementally tighter). My best crank length has been 170 since before high school, but this particular bike might be wearing 172.5 now. I have felt a slight difference between the two lengths, in the past.
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Old 02-02-19, 10:50 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Appreciated, Hermes. Don't be lost, it's not that hard. I don't clip in. I don't own clip pedals, cleats or shoes and I never have. I've been on platforms with clips/straps since being a kid, well we won't discuss age. The pedals have been Sheffield Strada (Quill), Campy Strada (Quill), Campy C-record Strada (platform), Shimano 600 6207 platform, Lyotard Berthet platforms, and MKS platforms. My feet have rarely not tracked the pedals, but when they have not, I revisit saddle position. My feet are usually a little pronated, but not enough to cause heel impacts. I can also try tighter straps (incrementally tighter). My best crank length has been 170 since before high school, but this particular bike might be wearing 172.5 now. I have felt a slight difference between the two lengths, in the past.
Oh. The first thing you do is get proper cycling shoes and clipless pedals. Really. That's the single most important thing anyone can do to improve their cycling and much safer than clips and straps. Much more important than the bike or fit or diet or clothes or anything else. It's the very first thing you do. After that, you do fit, clothes, diet, and bike in that order of importance. It's weird that so many people focus on the least important and most expensive thing. I rode my first double on a $150 used 12 speed when I was ~55, but I had proper shoes, pedals, clothing, and diet.

That said, I know what you mean about feet not following the pedals. That's because you've lost the neuromuscular coordination required to keep your feet floating above the pedals all the way around the stroke. That's the first thing to get right before trying to apply power. My suggestion was to help you regain that.

I should probably have 160 cranks, but I have 170s on my singles and 175s on the tandem. I can pedal up to 100 just fine on the tandem - stoker can't really go over that, 135 on my singles, Used to be faster, but age isn't kind. Like most folks, my favored cadence is ~90.
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Old 02-03-19, 08:48 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Oh. The first thing you do is get proper cycling shoes and clipless pedals. Really. That's the single most important thing anyone can do to improve their cycling and much safer than clips and straps. Much more important than the bike or fit or diet or clothes or anything else. It's the very first thing you do. After that, you do fit, clothes, diet, and bike in that order of importance. It's weird that so many people focus on the least important and most expensive thing. I rode my first double on a $150 used 12 speed when I was ~55, but I had proper shoes, pedals, clothing, and diet.

That said, I know what you mean about feet not following the pedals. That's because you've lost the neuromuscular coordination required to keep your feet floating above the pedals all the way around the stroke. That's the first thing to get right before trying to apply power. My suggestion was to help you regain that.

I should probably have 160 cranks, but I have 170s on my singles and 175s on the tandem. I can pedal up to 100 just fine on the tandem - stoker can't really go over that, 135 on my singles, Used to be faster, but age isn't kind. Like most folks, my favored cadence is ~90.
I'm trainer-bound for the foreseeable future, and maybe I should get the trainer-bike set up with clips and shoes. It should be able to train me, which I think is what you are suggesting. I agree with your thoughts about neuromuscular loss, been thinking the same thing. I should be able to address that on the trainer with clipless.

I am concerned about fastened feet on the road, with falling being the main fear. I briefly tried old-school cleated shoes, some Diadoras with plastic cleats. I see the difference between free-foot pedaling and hard-cleats that suit the angle of my foot, though not fully fitted. It feels more free to pedal with a fixed foot, and I was lucky not to have a stopping emergency nor to have any knee pain. With tight straps I needed to loosen to escape, and this is a necessary new habit - danger! With looser straps I was able to escape just by pulling my foot - leather straps have some elasticity if they are not dried out.

I'm also resistant to the fallacious hype about improved efficiency of clipless:

1. I usually ride 20 miles/break/20 miles. On break I usually walk as a normal human (wearing Lycra and having grey hair and a belly, so ... normal?). I do understand that mtb shoes are intended to be more natural when your feet are on the ground. But I am historically a toeclip user, over 50 years experience.
2. I have always been able to pull out of my toeclip at will, with no cleats, not tight straps, with a smooth shoe. With this setup there's no risk of feet getting stuck. That claim of clip/strap danger is a knee-jerk reaction not informed by experience of my style of road and traffic riding. The same could be said of my aversion to click pedals, but I'm also concerned with changing my habits without a believable reason. I've had broken bones due to falling, not worth repeating! I know that changing how I interface with the bike can cause me a delay in how I respond in an emergency. Withthe newness of unclicking (same issue with hard cleats and too-tight straps), I'll fall - just that simple. I don't need that.
3. People have claimed improved "efficiency" with clipless (20%! that's huge! Prove it!), and I usually ask for evidence. NOBODY has shared research (here on BF or on the Google groups I follow) presenting measured and verifiable improvements in force delivered to the pedal, or that the ratio of power to the pedal to power to the chain is more favorable with clipless - that would be a valid use of the word "efficiency". If the only reasoning people have is to repeat what was said in magazine info-adverts or on-line without any substantiation, then I can't buy it based on efficiency. I have trouble believing it isn't just group-think bling that was adopted because it was something new to sell and buy now not much else is on the market. I have no argument about smoothness and possibly comfort.
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Old 02-03-19, 09:52 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post

I'm also resistant to the fallacious hype about improved efficiency of clipless:
.
Fallacious? There's no fallacy with the merits of their use.

Don't get clipless pedals if you don't want, but using your ignorance of them as justification for not using them is pretty asinine.
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Old 02-03-19, 12:10 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I'm trainer-bound for the foreseeable future, and maybe I should get the trainer-bike set up with clips and shoes. It should be able to train me, which I think is what you are suggesting. I agree with your thoughts about neuromuscular loss, been thinking the same thing. I should be able to address that on the trainer with clipless.

I am concerned about fastened feet on the road, with falling being the main fear. I briefly tried old-school cleated shoes, some Diadoras with plastic cleats. I see the difference between free-foot pedaling and hard-cleats that suit the angle of my foot, though not fully fitted. It feels more free to pedal with a fixed foot, and I was lucky not to have a stopping emergency nor to have any knee pain. With tight straps I needed to loosen to escape, and this is a necessary new habit - danger! With looser straps I was able to escape just by pulling my foot - leather straps have some elasticity if they are not dried out.

I'm also resistant to the fallacious hype about improved efficiency of clipless:

1. I usually ride 20 miles/break/20 miles. On break I usually walk as a normal human (wearing Lycra and having grey hair and a belly, so ... normal?). I do understand that mtb shoes are intended to be more natural when your feet are on the ground. But I am historically a toeclip user, over 50 years experience.
2. I have always been able to pull out of my toeclip at will, with no cleats, not tight straps, with a smooth shoe. With this setup there's no risk of feet getting stuck. That claim of clip/strap danger is a knee-jerk reaction not informed by experience of my style of road and traffic riding. The same could be said of my aversion to click pedals, but I'm also concerned with changing my habits without a believable reason. I've had broken bones due to falling, not worth repeating! I know that changing how I interface with the bike can cause me a delay in how I respond in an emergency. Withthe newness of unclicking (same issue with hard cleats and too-tight straps), I'll fall - just that simple. I don't need that.
3. People have claimed improved "efficiency" with clipless (20%! that's huge! Prove it!), and I usually ask for evidence. NOBODY has shared research (here on BF or on the Google groups I follow) presenting measured and verifiable improvements in force delivered to the pedal, or that the ratio of power to the pedal to power to the chain is more favorable with clipless - that would be a valid use of the word "efficiency". If the only reasoning people have is to repeat what was said in magazine info-adverts or on-line without any substantiation, then I can't buy it based on efficiency. I have trouble believing it isn't just group-think bling that was adopted because it was something new to sell and buy now not much else is on the market. I have no argument about smoothness and possibly comfort.
OH, I hear you about the clips and straps. I used to use those. There is a reason however, that everyone I ride with, and I ride with a lot of people, uses clipless. Oddly, the vast majority of non-racer riders here use Sidi Dominators, so like no, we're not racers, we actually walk around. Funny, eh?

Like you say, give clipless a try on your trainer. I think you'll be amazed. I don't know about efficiency over clips, but you do get a much better feel for your pedals. I think that's helpful. There's a little slop in clips unless you use stiff, cleated shoes and tighten the straps. I used to do that and even then, it's not the same - you don't have the same feeling of freedom of your foot in the shoe that one has with clipless. Also, clipless opens a whole world of cycling footwear: booties, MTB boots for foul or cold weather, etc.

The first week I went to clipless, I almost fell once but ripped my foot out and didn't. So use SPD and loosen the adjustment screw all the way to start with. OTOH my dentist fell and broke his wrist trying them out in the parking lot. Takes all kinds. When one does fall, and I've been down on the road without injury, the thing is to keep one's hands on the bars. The folks with broken collar bones put an arm out.
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Old 02-03-19, 12:12 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Fallacious? There's no fallacy with the merits of their use.

Don't get clipless pedals if you don't want, but using your ignorance of them as justification for not using them is pretty asinine.
A favorite saying of my wife's father is that you cannot influence and antagonize at the same time.
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Old 02-04-19, 10:43 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Fallacious? There's no fallacy with the merits of their use.

Don't get clipless pedals if you don't want, but using your ignorance of them as justification for not using them is pretty asinine.
It may be asinine if the alternative does not have a cost to me, but it does. But dollars and cents aside, I was not clear about my point of view, and I am sorry about that.

The only part I find fallacious or at least unsupportable is efficiency. I can't blame you or carbonfiberboy, but numerous folks on BF have stated that efficiency will improve by some percentage, which implies you will get free watts. The number 20% sticks in my mind. That is the only point I see as fallacious, that there is a quantifiable improvement in power output at the rear wheel. I don't argue with comfort, smoothness, "it feels faster," or "it's now the standard," and how there are now accessories that are suitable for those pedals that I will like. I also embrace that using some on my trainer should accelerate the neuromuscular work I need to do. I even get that if I get power-enabled clipless pedals I don't need to rely on HR based training, and using my Wahoo might become more straightforward.

I am ignorant of direct riding experience with clipless pedals. I am not ignorant of how a pedal may or may not affect bicycle efficiency, because I am a professional in science. If you want to press the point about efficiency or power transfer, I am all ears, but I am looking for decent evidence on that point. On the others, I did not mean to take a challenging position, and actually I thought I wasn't.

I greatly appreciate the assistance and support you, carbonfiberboy, and others on the subforum have given me. My apologies, again.
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Old 02-04-19, 10:43 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Stop going hard on the hills, you are burning unnecessary matches when extended ride distance. Fasted rides and fasted training can help but probably not in the 13 weeks you have, better to get your nutrition dialed and find what works best for you and to consistently eat enough on the bike to keep up with expenditure.
I actually did a hard one-hour interval ride last Friday, and on my 50-mile Sunday ride yesterday, tried to take it easy on the climbs.

I have to say, the long ride was a lot more enjoyable when not powering up the climbs. Usually the last 15-20 miles I am suffering, but this time, I was actually feeling fine and fresh. Also today, the day after, I am feeling a lot better, not absolutely physically and mentally exhausted as I usually am.

I guess for a century ride, I will have to really pace myself, try to go agonizingly slow on the climbs. I tend to get carried away and want to smash it on the climbs, but you pay for that later on.
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Old 02-04-19, 11:32 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by maartendc View Post
I actually did a hard one-hour interval ride last Friday, and on my 50-mile Sunday ride yesterday, tried to take it easy on the climbs.

I have to say, the long ride was a lot more enjoyable when not powering up the climbs. Usually the last 15-20 miles I am suffering, but this time, I was actually feeling fine and fresh. Also today, the day after, I am feeling a lot better, not absolutely physically and mentally exhausted as I usually am.

I guess for a century ride, I will have to really pace myself, try to go agonizingly slow on the climbs. I tend to get carried away and want to smash it on the climbs, but you pay for that later on.
Awesome, it is always tempting to go hard on the hills, especially during an event but if you know your fitness well and can hold back the ride overall will be more enjoyable, and your training up to the ride can remain more on track. Lots of ways to skin a cat, but I've found this way to be sustainable and efficient for me. You can also put a hurting down in the last quarter if you're still feeling fresh and really demoralize some folks that are at their limit, which are usually some of the people that passed you earlier in the ride.
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Old 02-04-19, 12:51 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
It may be asinine if the alternative does not have a cost to me, but it does. But dollars and cents aside, I was not clear about my point of view, and I am sorry about that.

The only part I find fallacious or at least unsupportable is efficiency. I can't blame you or carbonfiberboy, but numerous folks on BF have stated that efficiency will improve by some percentage, which implies you will get free watts. The number 20% sticks in my mind. That is the only point I see as fallacious, that there is a quantifiable improvement in power output at the rear wheel. I don't argue with comfort, smoothness, "it feels faster," or "it's now the standard," and how there are now accessories that are suitable for those pedals that I will like. I also embrace that using some on my trainer should accelerate the neuromuscular work I need to do. I even get that if I get power-enabled clipless pedals I don't need to rely on HR based training, and using my Wahoo might become more straightforward.

I am ignorant of direct riding experience with clipless pedals. I am not ignorant of how a pedal may or may not affect bicycle efficiency, because I am a professional in science. If you want to press the point about efficiency or power transfer, I am all ears, but I am looking for decent evidence on that point. On the others, I did not mean to take a challenging position, and actually I thought I wasn't.

I greatly appreciate the assistance and support you, carbonfiberboy, and others on the subforum have given me. My apologies, again.
GNC did a series on clipless v platform. In the lab on with a bike on the treadmill, one of the GNC guys rode clipless and platform and got VO2 metrics and power. There was no difference. However, the rider did NOT have a problem keeping his foot on the pedal.

In the video below, GNC takes the comparison to the road and compares sprint, climbing and descending. Sprinting favored clipless by 15% in one case and 30% in the other. Climbing was equivocal and descending was all qualitative feeling that favored clipless. On the climbing portion, one of the guys qualitatively felt that his quads were more fatigued with platform pedals.

My own personal experience was that in the early 70s, I rode platform and as soon as I became more serious about performance changed to toe clips, straps and metal cleats. As soon as clipless became available, I got rid of the other system.

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Old 02-05-19, 10:09 AM
  #41  
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The other key fact in the clipless V flat video is that the racers had a pedal strike while cornering and their foot came off the pedal while sprinting out of a corner at speed. A pedal strike in a turn at high speed that results in a crash is NOT good. Compare that to concern about a tip over fall because one failed to release the foot prior to stopping. One can practice releasing the foot over and over until it becomes second nature. An inadvertent pedal strike due to and off camber turn is a real risk.

Of course, one can theoretically ride conservatively and maybe take the chance of a pedal strike out of the picture and as the GNC riders said platforms are probably okay for a sportiv. YMMV and I am not a clipless salesman...I just ride these thing.
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Old 02-07-19, 02:36 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
The other key fact in the clipless V flat video is that the racers had a pedal strike while cornering and their foot came off the pedal while sprinting out of a corner at speed. A pedal strike in a turn at high speed that results in a crash is NOT good. Compare that to concern about a tip over fall because one failed to release the foot prior to stopping. One can practice releasing the foot over and over until it becomes second nature. An inadvertent pedal strike due to and off camber turn is a real risk.

Of course, one can theoretically ride conservatively and maybe take the chance of a pedal strike out of the picture and as the GNC riders said platforms are probably okay for a sportiv. YMMV and I am not a clipless salesman...I just ride these thing.
With all the different pedals I've had at home, I have not pedal-hit in a long time. I think I'm much more on the leisurely side than you are.
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