Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Base Training Program I'm Following

Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Base Training Program I'm Following

Reply

Old 12-21-18, 10:45 AM
  #1  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Base Training Program I'm Following

Just sharing something I've been following with the community. I've had good success with it. Enjoy







fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-18, 02:12 PM
  #2  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,663

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1544 Post(s)
Base for what? What are you training for?

And how do you define "success"? Success at just continuing to see different numbers on the screen?

And lastly, what exactly were you having that "success" with? You just reposted 3 different versions of the same hyper-generic stuff you've been peddling on here for the last 3 months while railing against the "generic" programs that other programs offer. Simply doesn't compute.
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-18, 04:33 PM
  #3  
Succhia Ruota
in bagno maria
 
Succhia Ruota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 210

Bikes: N+1 wife + 2 kids

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
My Base Training Program

Step 1: Ride until it hurts.
Step 2: Keep riding the pain donkey.
Step 3: Repeat Step 1 and 2.

I've had good success with it.
Succhia Ruota is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-18, 07:54 PM
  #4  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,663

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1544 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Succhia Ruota View Post
My Base Training Program

Step 1: Ride until it hurts.
Step 2: Keep riding the pain donkey.
Step 3: Repeat Step 1 and 2.

I've had good success with it.
Sounds far more simple, intuitive, and enjoyable!
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-18, 03:01 PM
  #5  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,567

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1605 Post(s)
Uh, that's not base training. Read Chapple: Base Building for Cyclists. Start at the beginning, proceed from there.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-18, 09:19 PM
  #6  
BookFinder 
Lifelong wheel gazer ...
 
BookFinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Alabama
Posts: 202

Bikes: 2 good ones, 2 junkers

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Succhia Ruota View Post
My Base Training Program

Step 1: Ride until it hurts.
Step 2: Keep riding the pain donkey.
Step 3: Repeat Step 1 and 2.

I've had good success with it.
Ah yes, the virtues of simplicity!
__________________
'80's era Cannondale Police bike
'97 Giant ATX 840 project bike (gave it to a nephew...)
'01 Giant TCR-1 purebred road bike
'03 Schwinn mongrel MTB

Status quo is the mental bastion of the intellectually lethargic...
BookFinder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-18, 09:47 AM
  #7  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Regarding questions related to substituting MSI (maximum sustainable intensity) for %FTP, I am actually a big fan of this approach. Instead of progressing on time, you self-regulate by allowing interval structure to dictate the progression. This is indeed preferable to %FTP for VO2 max sessions as %FTP is a poor indicator of VO2 max. Similarly, allowing performance to be your guide can be more direct than performing an FTP test and then wondering why you can't perform a 2 x 20 workout. It's sometimes best to just find your 2 x 20 MSI.

FTP still has its place, however as many cyclists, especially new cyclists, demand the security that a schedule promises; at least initially until they begin to figure things out.

Regarding cardiac drift I do realize that I did not include Appendix B but that is because I believe it will violate forum rules but I can refer folks to the following resources for more information...


...and point out how precise and sensitive these indicators can be using fixed power under controlled conditions.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-18, 11:16 AM
  #8  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 2,663

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1544 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Regarding questions related to substituting MSI (maximum sustainable intensity) for %FTP, I am actually a big fan of this approach. Instead of progressing on time, you self-regulate by allowing interval structure to dictate the progression. This is indeed preferable to %FTP for VO2 max sessions as %FTP is a poor indicator of VO2 max. s.
Yeah, no kidding. And to think there's been software out for a few years now that addresses that issue and can create a power duration curve that lets you hone in on the individual specificity of training at that level.

Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
FTP still has its place, however as many cyclists, especially new cyclists, demand the security that a schedule promises; at least initially until they begin to figure things out.
But you haven't figured things out. So who are you preaching to, here?
rubiksoval is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-19, 10:46 AM
  #9  
maartendc
Senior Member
 
maartendc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 609

Bikes: 1989 Cannondale 3.0, 2010 BMC SLC01

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 333 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Succhia Ruota View Post
My Base Training Program

Step 1: Ride until it hurts.
Step 2: Keep riding the pain donkey.
Step 3: Repeat Step 1 and 2.

I've had good success with it.
I mean sure, that works. But for people with limited time on their hands, it is beneficial to switch up the training a bit. I am currently training for a century, and the schedule is pretty much this:

- rest day
- tuesday: fast ride or intervals, 1 hours
- rest day
- thursday: steady ride. 1 hour, increasing in duration week after week
- rest day
- Saturday: Long ride, 4-5 hours, increasing in duration
- rest day

I don't see the point in meticulously mapping out FTP's, heartrates and wattages. But there is definitely benefits to be had from riding intervals occasionally, etc. versus just "riding long" or "riding hard". Especially if you don't have time to go riding 4 hours, 3 times per week.
maartendc is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-19, 10:17 AM
  #10  
Carverbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Uh, that's not base training. Read Chapple: Base Building for Cyclists. Start at the beginning, proceed from there.
That was my first thought as well, way too much intensity and too little volume for effective base training. I wonder if OP is confusing Winter training on a reversed periodization program as Base training?
Carverbiker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-19, 12:15 PM
  #11  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,567

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1605 Post(s)
Originally Posted by maartendc View Post
I mean sure, that works. But for people with limited time on their hands, it is beneficial to switch up the training a bit. I am currently training for a century, and the schedule is pretty much this:

- rest day
- tuesday: fast ride or intervals, 1 hours
- rest day
- thursday: steady ride. 1 hour, increasing in duration week after week
- rest day
- Saturday: Long ride, 4-5 hours, increasing in duration
- rest day

I don't see the point in meticulously mapping out FTP's, heartrates and wattages. But there is definitely benefits to be had from riding intervals occasionally, etc. versus just "riding long" or "riding hard". Especially if you don't have time to go riding 4 hours, 3 times per week.
Good plan. I like to see a total of ~45' of Z4 HR for the week, i.e. the long ride should be hilly, and push your limits on the hills. You don't need more than 4-5 hours for that ride. If you make it longer, you'll have to reduce the intensity and it's the intensity that's important. IOW you actually get slower doing longer rides. If the century is this summer, I'd start with 30 mile rides or even shorter and gradually work up to 60 miles just before the century. If you can't hold lactate threshold or very close to it on the hills, there are too many of them = too long a ride for your current fitness.

For "riding hard," you really need a metric, either HR or power. Most folks have no idea how hard it's actually possible to ride because they have no metric, just that it feels hard. I'm in the middle of a ride series right now which will have us going from 33 miles to a century in 8 weeks, but these are experienced riders doing this. This past weekend it was 48 miles and 2600'. My average HR for the ride was 90% of my lactate threshold. I had to lay the bike down at the end because I couldn't get my leg over the saddle. That's how it's done.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-19, 01:44 AM
  #12  
Machka 
In Real Life
 
Machka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Down under down under
Posts: 51,157

Bikes: Lots

Mentioned: 117 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2746 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Regarding questions related to substituting MSI (maximum sustainable intensity) for %FTP, I am actually a big fan of this approach.

Regarding cardiac drift ...
Did anyone ask about these things?
Machka is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-19, 01:46 AM
  #13  
Machka 
In Real Life
 
Machka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Down under down under
Posts: 51,157

Bikes: Lots

Mentioned: 117 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2746 Post(s)
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Base for what? What are you training for?

And how do you define "success"? Success at just continuing to see different numbers on the screen?

And lastly, what exactly were you having that "success" with? You just reposted 3 different versions of the same hyper-generic stuff you've been peddling on here for the last 3 months while railing against the "generic" programs that other programs offer. Simply doesn't compute.
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Uh, that's not base training. Read Chapple: Base Building for Cyclists. Start at the beginning, proceed from there.
Agree with these comments. ^^



Step 1: Make goal.

Step 2: Learn what "base training" is.

Step 3: Do base training for the goal.
Machka is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-19, 07:50 AM
  #14  
maartendc
Senior Member
 
maartendc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 609

Bikes: 1989 Cannondale 3.0, 2010 BMC SLC01

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 333 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Good plan. I like to see a total of ~45' of Z4 HR for the week, i.e. the long ride should be hilly, and push your limits on the hills. You don't need more than 4-5 hours for that ride. If you make it longer, you'll have to reduce the intensity and it's the intensity that's important. IOW you actually get slower doing longer rides. If the century is this summer, I'd start with 30 mile rides or even shorter and gradually work up to 60 miles just before the century. If you can't hold lactate threshold or very close to it on the hills, there are too many of them = too long a ride for your current fitness.

For "riding hard," you really need a metric, either HR or power. Most folks have no idea how hard it's actually possible to ride because they have no metric, just that it feels hard. I'm in the middle of a ride series right now which will have us going from 33 miles to a century in 8 weeks, but these are experienced riders doing this. This past weekend it was 48 miles and 2600'. My average HR for the ride was 90% of my lactate threshold. I had to lay the bike down at the end because I couldn't get my leg over the saddle. That's how it's done.
Thanks for the tips. I suppose I should get a HR monitor actually.

Well, the century is on May 5th, so about 13 weeks away. I am currently reasonably fit, just came back from 3 months of not riding much at all, but was in good shape before that (maybe not good enough for a century, but good enough for 60-70 miles).

I currently do around 50 miles every Saturday or Sunday, with about 3000 ft of elevation gain (rolling terrain with steep climbs), and pushing it hard up climbs. 50 miles is currently my limit, and I feel absolutely exhausted after it, seems like 100 miles would be suicide. Need to definitely increase / improve my training if I want to do this century.

I was planning on steadily increasing the distance on Saturdays and Sundays to 75 miles closer to the event.

But I am hoping to get big gains in fitness from increasing my consistency of training during the week, and getting some intervals in. I have also heard good things about "fasted training" where you go out for a brisk ride first thing in the morning without breakfast. Supposedly this helps your body get used to burning fat instead of carbs.

I don't know. Many people seem to be like: a century is no big deal. But I beg to differ, I consider myself reasonably fit on the bike, and it seems hard. Especially when you throw in about 6000 ft of elevation gain

Thanks for the advice!
maartendc is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-19, 09:58 AM
  #15  
OBoile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,086
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 620 Post(s)
Other people will be able to answer this better than I would, but I don't think you need to do anything as complicated as fasted training for this. IMO the things you need to work on are:
1. Increasing your distance on your weekend ride. Add a few miles each week.
2. Ride during the week like you said. One or two interval sessions a week is a good idea. If you have a day that is somewhat time constrained, make that your interval day.
3. Practice fueling on your long rides. Learn what works for you and doesn't bother your stomach.
4. Maybe don't push yourself too hard on the climbs. Assuming your goal is to finish, and you're not treating it as a race, just try to ride steady once the rides start getting longer. That may allow you to go a lot further.
OBoile is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-19, 11:26 AM
  #16  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,806
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1499 Post(s)
Originally Posted by maartendc View Post
Thanks for the tips. I suppose I should get a HR monitor actually.

Well, the century is on May 5th, so about 13 weeks away. I am currently reasonably fit, just came back from 3 months of not riding much at all, but was in good shape before that (maybe not good enough for a century, but good enough for 60-70 miles).

I currently do around 50 miles every Saturday or Sunday, with about 3000 ft of elevation gain (rolling terrain with steep climbs), and pushing it hard up climbs. 50 miles is currently my limit, and I feel absolutely exhausted after it, seems like 100 miles would be suicide. Need to definitely increase / improve my training if I want to do this century.

I was planning on steadily increasing the distance on Saturdays and Sundays to 75 miles closer to the event.

But I am hoping to get big gains in fitness from increasing my consistency of training during the week, and getting some intervals in. I have also heard good things about "fasted training" where you go out for a brisk ride first thing in the morning without breakfast. Supposedly this helps your body get used to burning fat instead of carbs.

I don't know. Many people seem to be like: a century is no big deal. But I beg to differ, I consider myself reasonably fit on the bike, and it seems hard. Especially when you throw in about 6000 ft of elevation gain

Thanks for the advice!
Stop going hard on the hills, you are burning unnecessary matches when extended ride distance. Fasted rides and fasted training can help but probably not in the 13 weeks you have, better to get your nutrition dialed and find what works best for you and to consistently eat enough on the bike to keep up with expenditure.
redlude97 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-19, 01:26 PM
  #17  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,567

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1605 Post(s)
Originally Posted by maartendc View Post
Thanks for the tips. I suppose I should get a HR monitor actually. <snip>
I don't know. Many people seem to be like: a century is no big deal. But I beg to differ, I consider myself reasonably fit on the bike, and it seems hard. Especially when you throw in about 6000 ft of elevation gain

Thanks for the advice!
My caveats with my previous prescription is that yes, you have to have your nutrition and your pacing dialed. With that in mind it probably is good to do at least one 75-80 mile with similar climbing before the century if you don't already know what to do. Or heck, do an easy 200k and get some miles in your legs. Be that as it may, my standard training for 400k rides was just 60 miles and 4000'. It really is the intensity over distance that increases fitness and endurance. I call it "the ability to repeat." I find that I want to burn all the matches I have. Early in the season, which would be about now, I'll have 'em burned soon after the halfway point, then the challenge is to simply finish. But that's how I get strong. Save the negative split for the event. Train on training rides - leave it all on the road once a week. Going moderate the rest of the time is also training.

I think one 20 mile fasted ride a week is a good idea. That encourages fat burning and makes fueling on the century less of an issue. OTOH, simply riding a lot does essentially the same thing, so it certainly isn't necessary. I did that for a while, then quit when I was doing 2-3 hour unfasted hard rides without eating during the ride simply because I didn't get hungry. So same thing.

Speaking of mileage, a weekly mileage of 100 for a few weeks before the taper for the century assures the ability to finish, barring stupidity during the event. 150 miles/week for those weeks will assure a strong finish. So like 60 Satiurday, 30 moderate Sunday, then 20 moderate 3X during the week, maybe intervals one of those days, maybe not.

Another thing to watch, coming back after a long layoff, is overdoing it. Watch your HR on the climbs. If it doesn't come up to normal levels on the first climb, back it off and keep it backed off while testing on rides until you have a normal day.

On the 3rd hand, I'm an aggressive rider. Not everyone has to be like me. Sure is fun though.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-19, 07:34 PM
  #18  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,567

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1605 Post(s)
Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Stop going hard on the hills, you are burning unnecessary matches when extended ride distance. Fasted rides and fasted training can help but probably not in the 13 weeks you have, better to get your nutrition dialed and find what works best for you and to consistently eat enough on the bike to keep up with expenditure.
This is kind of interesting. Over in the Cycling and Carbs thread Cycling and Carbs
@OBoile pointed me toward the work of Dr. Israetel and I ran across an article of his about training levels and carb nutrition, here: https://www.jtsstrength.com/periodiz...te-strategies/

Worth a read. One has to translate his football methodology into cycling terms. He defines a training level of "Capacity."
Capacity training is over simply defined as full go, incomplete rest. The idea is that capacity work is very demanding on the metabolic systems. It is working on the capacity of all of our systems.
That's exactly what happens on a competitive group ride or simulating such on one's own. I've found Capacity training to be the key to long distance riding, though I was ignorant of the theory. He also defines "Power" training, which in our terms is "speed work." That's also helpful but not nearly as important IME. There are also "Threshold" and "Endurance" levels. "Threshold" training is that huge pillar of zone 3 which one sees on a bar chart of training levels after a hard group ride. "Endurance" is the stuff one does midweek so as not to burn out before the weekend hard group ride.

That article also has a big section on carb deprivation and replenishment during training being a good thing if the timing is done properly. We commonly do the Train Low/Fasted part of this, but I've never heard of anyone sleeping low on purpose:
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-19, 08:43 AM
  #19  
fstrnu
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Regarding various questions, it's an indoor plan. Intensity is substituted for time. This is a common approach to indoor training. If you have time for or ability to tolerate more volume on a trainer, go for it.
fstrnu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-19, 04:31 PM
  #20  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,806
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1499 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
This is kind of interesting. Over in the Cycling and Carbs thread Cycling and Carbs
@OBoile pointed me toward the work of Dr. Israetel and I ran across an article of his about training levels and carb nutrition, here: https://www.jtsstrength.com/periodiz...te-strategies/

Worth a read. One has to translate his football methodology into cycling terms. He defines a training level of "Capacity." That's exactly what happens on a competitive group ride or simulating such on one's own. I've found Capacity training to be the key to long distance riding, though I was ignorant of the theory. He also defines "Power" training, which in our terms is "speed work." That's also helpful but not nearly as important IME. There are also "Threshold" and "Endurance" levels. "Threshold" training is that huge pillar of zone 3 which one sees on a bar chart of training levels after a hard group ride. "Endurance" is the stuff one does midweek so as not to burn out before the weekend hard group ride.

That article also has a big section on carb deprivation and replenishment during training being a good thing if the timing is done properly. We commonly do the Train Low/Fasted part of this, but I've never heard of anyone sleeping low on purpose:
While I agree that "capacity" training plays a large role in endurance cycling, I don't agree that its best to combine it on your longest rides. That usually results in holding back on the intensity or going too hard and bonking far from home, both of which are likely resulting in inefficient use of that time. Even if you make it through, the additional recovery required will limit what can be done during the week. I'd rather have someone concentrate on increasing saddle time, experiencing moderate glycogen depletion and muscle fatigue and being able to extend distance/time week after week. "capacity" work with inadequte recovery can be done with intervals like tabatas and overunders during the week in 1-1.5 hours without having to worry about the additional 20 miles of riding if you happen to blow up during the session.
Now in terms of "sleep low" and nutritional periodization, its been studied but not something I've really wanted to try, but if you're interested in doing see: https://www.velonews.com/2017/07/new...trition_443630
and Dr. Hawley's work: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26741119 if anyone wants the article PM me
redlude97 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-19, 06:39 PM
  #21  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,567

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1605 Post(s)
Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
While I agree that "capacity" training plays a large role in endurance cycling, I don't agree that its best to combine it on your longest rides. That usually results in holding back on the intensity or going too hard and bonking far from home, both of which are likely resulting in inefficient use of that time. Even if you make it through, the additional recovery required will limit what can be done during the week. I'd rather have someone concentrate on increasing saddle time, experiencing moderate glycogen depletion and muscle fatigue and being able to extend distance/time week after week. "capacity" work with inadequte recovery can be done with intervals like tabatas and overunders during the week in 1-1.5 hours without having to worry about the additional 20 miles of riding if you happen to blow up during the session.
Now in terms of "sleep low" and nutritional periodization, its been studied but not something I've really wanted to try, but if you're interested in doing see: https://www.velonews.com/2017/07/new...trition_443630
and Dr. Hawley's work: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26741119 if anyone wants the article PM me
You're just more conservative than I. I've done it both ways and for me, Capacity training gave by far the best results. As it is said, riding slow trains one to ride slow. Similarly, riding moderate trains on to ride moderate, and riding hard trains one to ride hard. The idea is to gradually increase the length of Capacity rides so that one is still able to ride hard at the end. But it's also very useful to blow up sometimes during a Capacity ride and then finish anyway. Builds character and lipolytic systems at the same time one is discovering one's limits, what that feels like, and that it is not actually one's limit. As I say, endurance training starts when one starts to endure. There's a lot more to endurance riding than the numbers, which is why so many people have trouble riding a simple century, which is really nothing more than an ordinary day ride if one has trained this way.

What Capacity training really does is to increase the ability to recover. One climbs in zone 4/5 and recovers in zone 3. If one hits zone 2, one picks up the pace. That's how one develops the ability to do climb after climb without tiring. As we know, high end training raises the whole training curve.

Yes, a big Capacity ride is a major hit. Then one goes ahead and does 2 or 3 zone 2 rides during the week and is ready to go again. Yes, midweek intervals will depend on age and talent to some extent, but OTOH, they're unnecessary. One is training for one hard. ride. So do one hard ride, then a bunch of moderate rides to fill out that level of the pyramid. It's all about small c capacity.

Here's Homeba, our BF RAAM and 508 competitor on the subject:
No, you don't just ride a lot. Actually you don't need to ride a ton of miles. What is more important is the quality of the miles that you put in. Speed and climbing work are essential. When I train for an ultra I usually ride 3-4 times a week. One day of speed work about 25 miles, one day of climbing repeats also about 25 miles (1 1/2hrs) one recovery day ride 30-35miles and a longer ride on the weekend 45-75miles. I'll thrown in centuries and double centuries here and there just for fun.
And that's for ultras. I might not be able to do the midweek interval work anymore. I'll see this summer. I used to. I found it very helpful to do a 4 or so hour hike the day after the Capacity ride. Not sure what that did technically, but it increased my endurance a lot.

No one's paying me to do this so I think I'll skip the Sleep Low thing, but thanks anyway. I do my carb periodization by delaying food intake on rides where I know I'm not going to run out of glycogen. That helps. Sometimes I guess wrong, but that's OK too.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-19, 07:05 PM
  #22  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,806
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1499 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
You're just more conservative than I. I've done it both ways and for me, Capacity training gave by far the best results. As it is said, riding slow trains one to ride slow. Similarly, riding moderate trains on to ride moderate, and riding hard trains one to ride hard. The idea is to gradually increase the length of Capacity rides so that one is still able to ride hard at the end. But it's also very useful to blow up sometimes during a Capacity ride and then finish anyway. Builds character and lipolytic systems at the same time one is discovering one's limits, what that feels like, and that it is not actually one's limit. As I say, endurance training starts when one starts to endure. There's a lot more to endurance riding than the numbers, which is why so many people have trouble riding a simple century, which is really nothing more than an ordinary day ride if one has trained this way.

What Capacity training really does is to increase the ability to recover. One climbs in zone 4/5 and recovers in zone 3. If one hits zone 2, one picks up the pace. That's how one develops the ability to do climb after climb without tiring. As we know, high end training raises the whole training curve.

Yes, a big Capacity ride is a major hit. Then one goes ahead and does 2 or 3 zone 2 rides during the week and is ready to go again. Yes, midweek intervals will depend on age and talent to some extent, but OTOH, they're unnecessary. One is training for one hard. ride. So do one hard ride, then a bunch of moderate rides to fill out that level of the pyramid. It's all about small c capacity.

Here's Homeba, our BF RAAM and 508 competitor on the subject: And that's for ultras. I might not be able to do the midweek interval work anymore. I'll see this summer. I used to. I found it very helpful to do a 4 or so hour hike the day after the Capacity ride. Not sure what that did technically, but it increased my endurance a lot.

No one's paying me to do this so I think I'll skip the Sleep Low thing, but thanks anyway. I do my carb periodization by delaying food intake on rides where I know I'm not going to run out of glycogen. That helps. Sometimes I guess wrong, but that's OK too.
the thing is, you aren't riding slow. You end up doing more intensity at a higher wattage for longer durations total by doing them in shorter sessions. Doing short z2/z3 rides during the week doesnt really add much to fitness so for the same amount of weekly training I find can build faster with focused sessions during the week. Of course I'm referring to early season during base and build phases. Once into prime riding season things flip and you go out on hard long rides on the weekends because they're fun and then spend the week recovering with only a single day of quality training usually. By that point FTP gains tend to plateau though and you're just maintaining a high level of fitness
redlude97 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-19, 07:30 PM
  #23  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 14,567

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1605 Post(s)
Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
the thing is, you aren't riding slow. You end up doing more intensity at a higher wattage for longer durations total by doing them in shorter sessions. Doing short z2/z3 rides during the week doesnt really add much to fitness so for the same amount of weekly training I find can build faster with focused sessions during the week. Of course I'm referring to early season during base and build phases. Once into prime riding season things flip and you go out on hard long rides on the weekends because they're fun and then spend the week recovering with only a single day of quality training usually. By that point FTP gains tend to plateau though and you're just maintaining a high level of fitness
Well that's true, too. I had success in a couple years doing back-to-back moderate weekend rides, say 60-100 miles total in early season, then switching over to the one hard ride like you say. It's good both ways. The one-hard-ride way it's only one weekend day devoted to one's passion, the other to "kitchen uses," so there's that. The progression is more usual. This year, I've been doing the one hard ride method. This week I finally feel strong. Maybe the tandem won't be off the back so bad now.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-19, 02:09 AM
  #24  
Machka 
In Real Life
 
Machka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Down under down under
Posts: 51,157

Bikes: Lots

Mentioned: 117 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2746 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Regarding various questions, it's an indoor plan. Intensity is substituted for time. This is a common approach to indoor training. If you have time for or ability to tolerate more volume on a trainer, go for it.

I believe the actual question was:

"What is your goal?"
Machka is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-19, 05:08 PM
  #25  
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 13,867

Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Regarding various questions, it's an indoor plan. Intensity is substituted for time. This is a common approach to indoor training. If you have time for or ability to tolerate more volume on a trainer, go for it.
Are you saying that in any indoor training program, the trainee always substitutes brief HIT for lower zone rides, and there is some sort of fully valid consistency rule for this? I haven't done a lot training though I've started most seasons with high hopes, but I don't think i've read that. As far as training on indoor training, I've read Dirk Friel's book on indoor training. To me, and what I'm reading in Chapple, is that beginnign base for me needs to be gentle for a week or so to get my legs to remember how to work. For example, right now if my cadence goes above 60 my feet don't follow the pedals well - after 50 ish years of good pedaling i'm kinda surprised. I'm going to revisit my saddle positioning, but ... This is nowhere near the point where I can go into HIT.

For my timing horizon, as Machka noted the need for, my target is a Wisconsin metric on rolling hills, 4000 feet of climbing (1220 meters), says my calculator, in mid-September. So I have some time to work on these issues. Depending how I do, I could target a 60-miler in Michigan rollers, less total climbing than the Wisconsin ride, and that would be mid-July. My biggest quantified climb is 500 feet, from Niagara on the Lake to the level of Niagara Falls, riding along the Niagara River on the Ontario side.

So there are some goals, on my side.
Road Fan is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service