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Old 01-25-19, 11:56 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Which is not to say that sedentary folks should eat a lot of sugar. Quite the contrary. Getting a lot of hard aerobic exercise is the exception for the general population, but more the rule for BF. Use what you need for fuel and don't worry about it.
This is important context.
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Old 01-25-19, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Consuming too many calories is what puts weight on. Combinations don't matter aside from the fact that they may cause you to accidentally over-eat.
​​​​​​This is important knowledge.

Also, the kinds of junk food people think of as sugary often has more fat calories than sugar calories. Go check the label on a chocolate bar or iced cream, basically any junk food worth eating.
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Old 01-25-19, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Consuming too many calories is what puts weight on. Combinations don't matter aside from the fact that they may cause you to accidentally over-eat.
In a general sense, this is true. However it's greatly complicated by the variation in metabolic load involved in processing food intakes. It's very difficult to gain weight by eating only carbs. Cheeseburgers, OTOH, are deadly. See:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...feeding_in_man
Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
Doing the calculation, during the period of glycogen synthesis, no increase in body fat mass from carb consumption. After glycogen saturation, in the example of 1900 calories of carbs eaten, 550 of those calories are lost to the chemical process of turning them into fat. Fat eaten, OTOH, goes directly to body fat with no loss of calories to conversion.

So eat all the carbs you want on the bike.
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Old 01-25-19, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​This is important knowledge.

Also, the kinds of junk food people think of as sugary often has more fat calories than sugar calories. Go check the label on a chocolate bar or iced cream, basically any junk food worth eating.
What I'm talking about. From a food dictionary: chocolate chip cookies home made with butter have more calories from fat than from carbs. Bam, right to the gut.
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Old 01-25-19, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
In a general sense, this is true. However it's greatly complicated by the variation in metabolic load involved in processing food intakes. It's very difficult to gain weight by eating only carbs. Cheeseburgers, OTOH, are deadly. See:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...feeding_in_man
Doing the calculation, during the period of glycogen synthesis, no increase in body fat mass from carb consumption. After glycogen saturation, in the example of 1900 calories of carbs eaten, 550 of those calories are lost to the chemical process of turning them into fat. Fat eaten, OTOH, goes directly to body fat with no loss of calories to conversion.

So eat all the carbs you want on the bike.
I wouldn't quite go that far considering only 18% of the carbs is going to conversion and its easy to overconsume carbs way in excess of the ability to glycogen load and for resting respiration, but I do agree with your conclusion that carbs shouldn't be restricted on the bike
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Old 01-25-19, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
In a general sense, this is true.
It's true in every sense.
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
However it's greatly complicated by the variation in metabolic load involved in processing food intakes. It's very difficult to gain weight by eating only carbs. Cheeseburgers, OTOH, are deadly. See:
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...feeding_in_man
Doing the calculation, during the period of glycogen synthesis, no increase in body fat mass from carb consumption. After glycogen saturation, in the example of 1900 calories of carbs eaten, 550 of those calories are lost to the chemical process of turning them into fat. Fat eaten, OTOH, goes directly to body fat with no loss of calories to conversion.
The fact that the body isn't perfectly efficient at converting carbs to fat doesn't change the fact that combinations do not matter. It just means that, when it comes to fat storage, a gram of carbs will have less of an effect compared to a gram of fat than the traditional 4:9 ratio. With or without carbs, fat is still being stored as fat. The overall quantities of each macro-nutrient matter, not the timing.
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
So eat all the carbs you want on the bike.
To a certain extent yes, particularly if performance on a ride is your main goal. However, calories consumed while riding still count, so an increase of consumption here will have to be offset by a decrease off the bike.
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Old 01-26-19, 03:08 AM
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I've never noticed any blood sugar problems from grains, whether plain bread or oatmeal. The only thing that matters is added sugar. I can eat a good crunchy waffle from a deep Belgian waffle maker, with butter and bacon cooked in. No problems. But if I add syrup my blood sugar will spike and crash. I've been prone to hypoglycemia since I was a kid -- those cravings, spikes and crashes. Diabetes runs in my family, another reason I try to avoid sugar as anything other than fuel for hard workouts. I don't even use it for casual rides.

I haven't found that fats in any form -- butter, olive oil, saturated, unsaturated, hydrogenated, or right off the brisket since I like fatty smoked brisket too -- makes any difference with my weight, metabolism, cholesterol level, etc.

Only sugar and carbs seem to have any effect on my body fat. I can eat the stuff as fuel for workouts. But if I eat it at other times it's just hindering loss of belly fat.

But my metabolism is a mess right now. Got a call from my endocrinologist Friday telling me to increase my dosage of levothyroxine because my level is too low. They'd hoped that leaving part of the thyroid after surgery to remove the cancer would kickstart the remaining part, but it didn't happen. Probably explains why my energy level has been so low the past few months.

So, subject to change at body whim.
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Old 01-26-19, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Consuming too many calories is what puts weight on. Combinations don't matter aside from the fact that they may cause you to accidentally over-eat.
I believe that "wrong food combinations" is the leading cause of various diseases, health problems, poor digestion and obesity...Macronutrients and various foods by themselves are not unhealthy, it's how they are prepared and combined that makes them healthy or toxic...I agree with what one poster said about fat and sugar combo being bad and I myself avoid that combo as much as possible...It really simple: if you're eating a high-fat meal keep your carbs low and protein high, if you're eating high-carb meal keep your fat low and protein high...Eating a hamburger patty with veggies is not a problem but if you add french fries to that and then have a milkshake or ice cream for a desert it will become a problem. You can't out-exercise a bad diet especially as you're getting older, an 18 year old college football player can get away with eating anything, a 50 year old guy can't continue to eat whatever he wants and get away with it, no matter how much he exercises.
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Old 01-26-19, 07:42 PM
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The food combining theory remains controversial and unsubstantiated. Some of the benefits and drawbacks to the way we combine or don't combine foods are often attributable to other factors, but proponents conflate casual and causal relationships.

I've been through all of that before over the decades, trying to sort out pesky health problems. I tried the gluten-free thing decades ago, long before it was faddish. Turned out my indigestion had nothing to do with gluten. It was lactose intolerance. A simple enzyme supplement solved the problem. So did cutting back on some dairy products.

Ditto, chronic severe headaches. Had 'em since childhood. At times they went from once or twice a year to several times a week. From various neurologists I heard it was migraine, then cluster headaches, then trigeminal neuralgia. They prescribed all kinds of meds, none of which worked consistently. They recommended various diet changes to eliminate triggers. None of it made any difference. Inevitably they'd just shrug it off if it didn't respond to their checklist of standard fixes.

Turns out the most likely cause is related to trigeminal neuralgia, specifically sensitivity to sinus pressure. Of all the medical professionals I met, the most useful suggestion came from the most unlikely source -- a dentist. A severe headache that hit me in the waiting room while waiting for a tooth extraction was relieved within moments from an injection of lidocaine or whatever the dentist used. It numbed the entire right side of my head. The dentist said if that relieved the headache, it probably was related to the trigeminal nerve and I should get it checked out.

Most of the time it's prevented or relieved with antihistamines, decongestants (including niacin, which can relieve some mucus related problems related to allergies and asthma), and occasional anti-inflammatories such as prednisone. Occasionally it responds to beta blockers or calcium channel blockers -- researchers still aren't certain how and why those work on some headaches.

Years ago when I was chronically exhausted, depressed, with constant aches and occasional severe outbreaks of psoriasis and a bunch of other seemingly unrelated problems, most doctors shrugged it off. A physician's assist at my local family clinic said it sounded like a thyroid problem. They did the lab work. Turned out I had Hashimoto's, a pesky but generally nonfatal autoimmune disorder. A small pill -- levothyroxine or synthroid -- fixed most of the symptoms.

Meanwhile I'd wasted a lot of time, lost a lot of work and wasted a lot of money on ineffective prescriptions and diet supplements. I finally had surgery in November to remove part of the thyroid that had cancer. It shouldn't have taken almost 20 years to get a proper diagnosis and treatment. But the previous doctors just didn't listen.

I suspect many folks, including myself, are lured toward the fuzzy side of alternative medicine, niche diets and various placebos not merely because we're prone to being gullible but because we've hit a brick wall with our health care professionals and we're desperate for relief. I've found far more indifferent and ignorant doctors, nurses and nurse practitioners than good ones who ask the right questions, carefully listen to patients and offer informed suggestions and/or prescriptions.

Unless or until we're lucky enough to encounter a well informed and conscientious health care professional, it's easy to become frustrated and start looking to foodoo practitioners for cures.
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Old 01-27-19, 01:56 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
You can't out-exercise a bad diet especially as you're getting older, ...
Few things:

For fat gain/loss, the quality of your diet doesn't matter, just the number of calories in vs out.

It's a continuoum. Exercising means you have to eat more or you'll eventually waste away. You need to balance your food and movement. Whether you exercise or not.

There's no reason to be moralistic about food.

A friend of a friend lost 40 pounds hiking the PCT. He ate as much as he could, literally. Jar of peanut butter every time he passed a store or post office. Iced cream whenever it was available. Most people aren't going to do that, but it's very possible to exercise and eat more because of it.

A good friend of mine celebrated her 50th birthday by hiking across Washington and half of Oregon on the trail. Fred Beckey was climbing big peaks in his 90s. @Carbonfiberboy does RAMROD in his 70s, most 20 year olds can't do a ride like that. You have to slow down as you age, but not that much. The important thing is to keep moving.
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Old 01-27-19, 01:59 AM
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Man loses 56 pounds after eating only McDonald's for six months


While enjoying his weight loss, Cisna is particularly excited about the results of his blood tests: He says his total cholesterol dropped from 249 to 190, including a 25 percent decrease in his LDL or bad cholesterol. Despite concerns that he was eating too much salt, Cisna said his sodium levels and blood pressure are normal.

Obviously McDonald's isn't a great diet. Obesity is even worse than McDonald's, so his blood markers improved in spite of a nutrient poor diet. It's clearly a better idea to eat more variety of healthy foods. But this proves that it's all about calories for weight management. Not quality or combination or anything else.
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Old 01-27-19, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post
How many members eschew carbs in their diets ? I know carb intake is pretty common for cyclists . 4 years ago I went from a very calorie restricted diet where I lost 100 pounds to a keto lifestyle where I spend most of my time in ketosis as I continue to get healthy. I constantly have others ask me why I dont use energy bars , goo, etc. I usually take cheese , nuts and boiled eggs with me for a snack when I ride. Anyway just curious as I see most everyone basically using lots of sugar laden snacks while riding which really isn't that great for you even if you are burning them away during cycling.

Not an expert in nutrition by any means and I am more curious than anything as I try to learn more about diet and nutrition .
Carbs are merely a simpler molecule more easily breakdown are turn into energy. They are not a necessary nutrient, but they are vital in that they contain important vitamins, minerals and fiber that are not naturally available otherwise, and would be necessary for good health. The negative part of carbs is trifold:

First, most people select carbs that have been heavily process or refined rather than selecting the natural unrefined carbs. Second, those refined carbs tend to be sweet, more easily consumed (easy to chew), and therefore, we eat way too much of them. Due to their easy digestibility, a simple carbs is something you can literally consume indefinitely.

Finally, but not least, carbs illicit the greatest insulin response which results in your body's fat storage hormone. This is many times great than its response when you consume proteins or fats.

Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Man loses 56 pounds after eating only McDonald's for six months


While enjoying his weight loss, Cisna is particularly excited about the results of his blood tests: He says his total cholesterol dropped from 249 to 190, including a 25 percent decrease in his LDL or bad cholesterol. Despite concerns that he was eating too much salt, Cisna said his sodium levels and blood pressure are normal.

Obviously McDonald's isn't a great diet. Obesity is even worse than McDonald's, so his blood markers improved in spite of a nutrient poor diet. It's clearly a better idea to eat more variety of healthy foods. But this proves that it's all about calories for weight management. Not quality or combination or anything else.
What it proves first and foremost, is that there are always anomalies. That said, the most important aspect of the diet was lowering his caloric intake and increase his energy expenditure. Either one of those would have resulted is some weight lose.

That loss becomes particularly dramatic when you move from a sedentary lifestyle to one of being active. These combinations are what we need to consider first and foremost before we consider where he got his food.

Also, as pointed out in the video, there are more healthy selection to be had at McDonald's. So were not talking about losing weight while eating Grand Macs, McNuggets, and shakes everyday.
Also, while I'm at it honey is refined sugar albeit by bees.

Last edited by KraneXL; 01-28-19 at 10:17 AM. Reason: reword sentence
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Old 01-27-19, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post

Man loses 56 pounds after eating only McDonald's for six months


While enjoying his weight loss, Cisna is particularly excited about the results of his blood tests: He says his total cholesterol dropped from 249 to 190, including a 25 percent decrease in his LDL or bad cholesterol. Despite concerns that he was eating too much salt, Cisna said his sodium levels and blood pressure are normal.

Obviously McDonald's isn't a great diet. Obesity is even worse than McDonald's, so his blood markers improved in spite of a nutrient poor diet. It's clearly a better idea to eat more variety of healthy foods. But this proves that it's all about calories for weight management. Not quality or combination or anything else.
Maybe McDonalds should go into weight-loss business and cholesterol lowering business. Why take statins to lower cholesterol when you can just eat a cheeseburger with fries followed by a milkshake and accomplish the same thing.
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Old 01-27-19, 02:07 PM
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McDonald's isn't bad. The burger meat is better now than it was several years ago. In fact, now McDonald's premium burgers are better than most of the competition. It's pretty much the same as my homemade burgers. The trick is to get good quality ground beef, not "pink slime," and not overwork the patties. I use a stainless steel dish for pet food that is too small even for my cats but just right for making a 1/3 lb burger the right diameter and thickness to be fully cooked and juicy, with a good texture. And they have salads, sugar free soft drinks and decent coffee.

Yup, I've eaten way too much McDonald's. It was the only restaurant in the hospital/health center where my mom was a patient for 10 years. The next closest restaurant was a mile away.

And during the past year I've spent a lot of time in hospitals and clinics with my own health issues. So I eat whatever's available. It's possible to eat reasonably well at most fast food joints. Just choose carefully from the menus. I usually get coffee or water, no soft drinks.
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Old 01-27-19, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Maybe McDonalds should go into weight-loss business and cholesterol lowering business. Why take statins to lower cholesterol when you can just eat a cheeseburger with fries followed by a milkshake and accomplish the same thing.
Statins aren't looking so good lately if you follow the news. I'd sure prefer to eat reasonably than to pop pills.
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Old 01-28-19, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Maybe McDonalds should go into weight-loss business and cholesterol lowering business. Why take statins to lower cholesterol when you can just eat a cheeseburger with fries followed by a milkshake and accomplish the same thing.
Well at least they don't look as bad as they used to. They responded to criticism and cleaned up their act. On the flip side, their prices have increased proportionately.

Funny story, I went to 3 different schools and all of them there was a McDonald's within 4 blocks. In one, it was right across the street. Needless to say it became my go-to eatery. I went everyday for nearly 2 years until a chain of events with bad service finally broke that habit.

A bad service/counter person can ruin your business. If your business is failing, check your employees.
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Old 01-28-19, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Statins aren't looking so good lately if you follow the news. I'd sure prefer to eat reasonably than to pop pills.
I agree 100%, let food be thy medicine...but I would definitely choose something better than McDonalds.
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Old 01-28-19, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I believe that "wrong food combinations" is the leading cause of various diseases, health problems, poor digestion and obesity...Macronutrients and various foods by themselves are not unhealthy, it's how they are prepared and combined that makes them healthy or toxic...I agree with what one poster said about fat and sugar combo being bad and I myself avoid that combo as much as possible...It really simple: if you're eating a high-fat meal keep your carbs low and protein high, if you're eating high-carb meal keep your fat low and protein high...
Frankly, I'm surprised people believe this. I've yet to see any respected authority on nutrition endorse this line of thinking.
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Eating a hamburger patty with veggies is not a problem but if you add french fries to that and then have a milkshake or ice cream for a desert it will become a problem. You can't out-exercise a bad diet especially as you're getting older, an 18 year old college football player can get away with eating anything, a 50 year old guy can't continue to eat whatever he wants and get away with it, no matter how much he exercises.
All true, but it has nothing to do with the specific timing of when you ate what.
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Old 01-28-19, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Frankly, I'm surprised people believe this. I've yet to see any respected authority on nutrition endorse this line of thinking.
Well, where would you like to start? How about white bread. If you look on the label it will always say "enriched". That's because the processing removes the bran, the vital parts that contain most of the nutrients. They discovered this the hard way.

All true, but it has nothing to do with the specific timing of when you ate what.
Again, argumentative. One of the best ways to control you diet is to eat slow. Also, eating your veges first will fill your stomach an aid in preventing overeating.
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Old 01-28-19, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Well, where would you like to start? How about white bread. If you look on the label it will always say "enriched". That's because the processing removes the bran, the vital parts that contain most of the nutrients. They discovered this the hard way. Again, argumentative. One of the best ways to control you diet is to eat slow. Also, eating your veges first will fill your stomach an aid in preventing overeating.
Neither one of these comments has anything to do with what I posted.
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Old 01-28-19, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post
How many members eschew carbs in their diets ? I know carb intake is pretty common for cyclists . 4 years ago I went from a very calorie restricted diet where I lost 100 pounds to a keto lifestyle where I spend most of my time in ketosis as I continue to get healthy. I constantly have others ask me why I dont use energy bars , goo, etc. I usually take cheese , nuts and boiled eggs with me for a snack when I ride. Anyway just curious as I see most everyone basically using lots of sugar laden snacks while riding which really isn't that great for you even if you are burning them away during cycling.

Not an expert in nutrition by any means and I am more curious than anything as I try to learn more about diet and nutrition .
Uhm, I'm not a nutritionist or anything, but I thought it was basic knowledge that your body / muscles need carbs for energy. I have only ever heard of cyclists INcreasing their carb intake, not decreasing. If I am doing 50+ mile rides, I feel AWFUL if I don't eat a carby snack every hour or so. Eating more carbs the night before also seems to help. Never heard of cycling (or any endurance exercise) on a no-carb diet. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

That being said, you are obviously better of eating "slow" carbs like pasta, bread, potatoes, rice rather than sugary stuff that spikes your blood sugar levels.
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Old 01-28-19, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Neither one of these comments has anything to do with what I posted.
I knew you were going to say that.
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Old 01-28-19, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by maartendc View Post

That being said, you are obviously better of eating "slow" carbs like pasta, bread, potatoes, rice rather than sugary stuff that spikes your blood sugar levels.
I am not sure this is correct , Vinnie Tortorich does indeed do a lot of endurance sports including cycling and he stays in Keto , doesnt do carbs at all other than what he gets from veggies. I’m not saying carbs are bad , but you seem to be advocating the exact opposite of what I’ve read concerning the fact that your body does convert fat to ketones which your body uses in place of sugars derived from grains etc. People in Ketosis typically get their carbs / sugars from vegetables as Keto is not carb free it’s just processed carbs that are avoided .

However I am not riding the TDF either , just long rides and the occasional tour so I’m not in a hurry to do a century in a set time limit .
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Old 01-28-19, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I agree 100%, let food be thy medicine...but I would definitely choose something better than McDonalds.
I posted the McDonald's link to clarify that eating "bad" food doesn't prevent a person from losing weight.

It's interesting that his cholesterol improved eating Big Macs. I would have expected the opposite. Obesity is more dangerous than "bad" food. It's probably best to stop thinking of specific foods as good or bad, it's the overall diet that matters, and body composition.

I had gained some weight when I was younger and first came into the desk job world. It took longer than it should have to fix, because I believed the stopid crap people say about weight, like to just have to eat virtuous foods. If somebody had said "listen up, fat boy, it's just math" I wouldn't have spent a year being pudgy. As soon as I understood calories are the only thing that matters for weight, it dropped like a bad habit and never came back. I still eat junk food occasionally in small portions, and that probably makes it sustainable.
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Old 01-28-19, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post


I am not sure this is correct , Vinnie Tortorich does indeed do a lot of endurance sports including cycling and he stays in Keto , doesnt do carbs at all other than what he gets from veggies. Im not saying carbs are bad , but you seem to be advocating the exact opposite of what Ive read concerning the fact that your body does convert fat to ketones which your body uses in place of sugars derived from grains etc. People in Ketosis typically get their carbs / sugars from vegetables as Keto is not carb free its just processed carbs that are avoided .

However I am not riding the TDF either , just long rides and the occasional tour so Im not in a hurry to do a century in a set time limit .
You're reading the wrong stuff then. It's very well known and understood that carbohydrates are critical for many types of athletic performance. You simply can't supply anaerobic energy without lots of them. Losing one of your two main energy sources is bad for putting energy into a bike. When I don't eat enough carbs my average power falls 40 to 50 watts. I can still climb hills, but but quickly.

The keto folks are a cult unto themselves. That's very proud of ketosis, so they don't really talk about the downsides. You won't get the whole picture from these folks.
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