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Cycling and Carbs

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Old 01-28-19, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post


I am not sure this is correct , Vinnie Tortorich does indeed do a lot of endurance sports including cycling and he stays in Keto , doesnt do carbs at all other than what he gets from veggies. Iím not saying carbs are bad , but you seem to be advocating the exact opposite of what Iíve read concerning the fact that your body does convert fat to ketones which your body uses in place of sugars derived from grains etc. People in Ketosis typically get their carbs / sugars from vegetables as Keto is not carb free itís just processed carbs that are avoided .

However I am not riding the TDF either , just long rides and the occasional tour so Iím not in a hurry to do a century in a set time limit .
ultracycling events in zone 2 that he does would probably benefit from a keto or IF diet just to be more nutrionally flexible on the bike, if there are any substantial suprathreshold efforts you'll be in for a world of hurt
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Old 01-28-19, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I posted the McDonald's link to clarify that eating "bad" food doesn't prevent a person from losing weight.

It's interesting that his cholesterol improved eating Big Macs. I would have expected the opposite. Obesity is more dangerous than "bad" food. It's probably best to stop thinking of specific foods as good or bad, it's the overall diet that matters, and body composition.

I had gained some weight when I was younger and first came into the desk job world. It took longer than it should have to fix, because I believed the stopid crap people say about weight, like to just have to eat virtuous foods. If somebody had said "listen up, fat boy, it's just math" I wouldn't have spent a year being pudgy. As soon as I understood calories are the only thing that matters for weight, it dropped like a bad habit and never came back. I still eat junk food occasionally in small portions, and that probably makes it sustainable.
I like everything about this post.
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Old 01-28-19, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
ultracycling events in zone 2 that he does would probably benefit from a keto or IF diet just to be more nutrionally flexible on the bike, if there are any substantial suprathreshold efforts you'll be in for a world of hurt

That makes sense , thanks for the education.
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Old 01-28-19, 02:50 PM
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I have attended several training camps that featured lectures by nutritianists that discussed diet and exercise and what to eat on the bike and etc. Nutrition can be periodized to match training objectives and nutrition can be customized for long distance cyclists such as RAAM and for amateur racers and of course professional racers. It follows that if one is interested in improving nutrition, hire a nutritionist to set up a program.

And there are companies, such as Hammer Nutrition that provides supplements specifically designed for athletes. HM employs their own experts that have credentials in nutrition to create and test products to maximize performance in compliance with anti doping rules.

From the Hammer Nutrition website...here is more than anyone wants to know about carbs called Carbohydrates 101.

https://www.hammernutrition.com/know...ohydrates-101/
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Old 01-28-19, 10:47 PM
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I eat whatever tastes good I am going to die eventually anyways. So eat to live donít live to eat and eat less and move more.
I need fuel to ride my bike and other athletic activities that dictates carb levels. Tried low carb made me weak and brain dead. I need carbs like black beans and whole grains and on long rides energy bars, that works for me but everyone is different. If I want to drop weight I eat less when I gain weight I know exactly how it happened usually beer and Mexican food
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Old 01-28-19, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Frankly, I'm surprised people believe this. I've yet to see any respected authority on nutrition endorse this line of thinking.

All true, but it has nothing to do with the specific timing of when you ate what.
I rather bowed out of this discussion because I could easily see that it was going to result in an argument and since I made the initial comment, I figured it would be better for everyone to just let it die and ignore the small insult.

However it didn't die out and . . . There's more to it than just my existence on the planet. So the heck with it.

So I'm 73 years old, still ride hard, try to keep myself healthy and able. I have a BMI of 24 which hasn't really changed since I lost 20 pounds decades ago by doing what I advocate: eating smaller portions and being careful of adding fat to a meal that's high in carbs. I've been watching my results for 20 years or so and I've formed some opinions from those results.

"Nutritional authority?" You mean like Gary Taubes or William Davis? Because there's never going to be a published and replicable study confirming my hypothesis - too many variables, too long a time period, too expensive. And who cares? I did put up a link to a study which I thought confirmed what I'd already decided was the case:

That an easy way for an endurance athlete to avoid overeating and concomitant weight gain was to limit fats when recovering from a strenuous ride or other exercise session. My practice has been to attempt to replace a good bit of lost glycogen right after a ride. I always have a small recovery drink, then a series of small carb snacks. It's noticeable that after the drink and each carb snack I'll get hungry again fairly quickly as my blood sugar is scoured out to replace lost glycogen, so then I'll eat another one. A meal with veggies and carbs usually stops that process. I know that if I ate much fat at that meal, it'd go directly to fatty tissue. That's really no big deal - I can easily lose the gain by eating more carefully for a couple of days. I'll know why I gained and what to do to lose it again.

It's a good way to eat - carefully and thoughtfully. Kosher and halal eating can be seen as an attempt to be aware of what one is eating. This is no different in that way, except that it's purpose is to keep me from gaining unnecessary weight while still keeping my glycogen stores topped up..

After I wrote the above, a funny thought came to me. What if my experience is also the experience of others? Wouldn't that be interesting? And what if some of those others had some sort of nutrition rep? I googled "weight carbs and fat same meal" and you can do that, too. Among the hits, I found:
https://thedrjoe.com/carbs-fats-together/
https://www.metaboliceffect.com/wors...r-weight-loss/
Roman's Rules for Macronutrient Combination
We have agreed that a combination of high fat and high carbs is not a good idea if you are trying to lose weight or are insulin resistant or even frankly a type 2 diabetic.

So, do not eat for instance:
Bulletproof coffee with the Bagel or cake.
French fries with that full fat mayonaise.
Whole milk with granola, museli, bran flakes.
Full fat yogurt and your sweet fruits like apples, grapes, raisings, apricots, nectarines, pineapples, bananas.
Avocados or guacamole and crisps (chips), doritos, pretzels
Burgers
Pizzas
Doughnuts
Those search terms will also present you with views opposite to these. Read them too and make up your own mind. I found what worked for me without reading any of it.
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Old 01-29-19, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I rather bowed out of this discussion because I could easily see that it was going to result in an argument and since I made the initial comment, I figured it would be better for everyone to just let it die and ignore the small insult.

However it didn't die out and . . . There's more to it than just my existence on the planet. So the heck with it.

So I'm 73 years old, still ride hard, try to keep myself healthy and able. I have a BMI of 24 which hasn't really changed since I lost 20 pounds decades ago by doing what I advocate: eating smaller portions and being careful of adding fat to a meal that's high in carbs. I've been watching my results for 20 years or so and I've formed some opinions from those results.

"Nutritional authority?" You mean like Gary Taubes or William Davis? Because there's never going to be a published and replicable study confirming my hypothesis - too many variables, too long a time period, too expensive. And who cares? I did put up a link to a study which I thought confirmed what I'd already decided was the case:

That an easy way for an endurance athlete to avoid overeating and concomitant weight gain was to limit fats when recovering from a strenuous ride or other exercise session. My practice has been to attempt to replace a good bit of lost glycogen right after a ride. I always have a small recovery drink, then a series of small carb snacks. It's noticeable that after the drink and each carb snack I'll get hungry again fairly quickly as my blood sugar is scoured out to replace lost glycogen, so then I'll eat another one. A meal with veggies and carbs usually stops that process. I know that if I ate much fat at that meal, it'd go directly to fatty tissue. That's really no big deal - I can easily lose the gain by eating more carefully for a couple of days. I'll know why I gained and what to do to lose it again.

It's a good way to eat - carefully and thoughtfully. Kosher and halal eating can be seen as an attempt to be aware of what one is eating. This is no different in that way, except that it's purpose is to keep me from gaining unnecessary weight while still keeping my glycogen stores topped up..

After I wrote the above, a funny thought came to me. What if my experience is also the experience of others? Wouldn't that be interesting? And what if some of those others had some sort of nutrition rep? I googled "weight carbs and fat same meal" and you can do that, too. Among the hits, I found:
https://thedrjoe.com/carbs-fats-together/
https://www.metaboliceffect.com/wors...r-weight-loss/
Roman's Rules for Macronutrient Combination
Those search terms will also present you with views opposite to these. Read them too and make up your own mind. I found what worked for me without reading any of it.
As a method for controlling caloric intake, having a rule like "no carbs and fats together" is a fine idea.
My issue is with the idea that there is some sort of special, interaction between the two that leads to significantly more weight gain when consumed together versus consuming an equal amount of each at different times.
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
"Nutritional authority?" You mean like Gary Taubes or William Davis?
No, I would certainly not consider those to be reputable authorities in nutrition. Someone like Dr. Berardi would be an example of who I would consider a nutritional authority. Generally speaking: someone with PhD in the field. Dr. Israetel would be another good example.
My experience has always been that people who really know what they're talking about with nutrition science tend not to be very dogmatic and are always cautious about jumping on the bandwagon with respect to the latest dietary fad. Taubes and Davis are both quacks as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 01-29-19, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
As a method for controlling caloric intake, having a rule like "no carbs and fats together" is a fine idea.
My issue is with the idea that there is some sort of special, interaction between the two that leads to significantly more weight gain when consumed together versus consuming an equal amount of each at different times.
No, I would certainly not consider those to be reputable authorities in nutrition. Someone like Dr. Berardi would be an example of who I would consider a nutritional authority. Generally speaking: someone with PhD in the field. Dr. Israetel would be another good example.
My experience has always been that people who really know what they're talking about with nutrition science tend not to be very dogmatic and are always cautious about jumping on the bandwagon with respect to the latest dietary fad. Taubes and Davis are both quacks as far as I'm concerned.
Well then we agree after all. Yes, I was kind of pulling your chain with those names. Yes, totally quacks. I don't really know who I'd trust in these matters. So many nutritionists are actually poorly informed when it comes to edgy topics in athletic areas. PhD isn't necessarily to be equated with reliable as there's that nasty profit motive in there sometimes.

Nutritional studies seem to have worse researcher bias than other areas, maybe because there's so much noise and/or unknown confounders in there which gives bias a field day. Animals are so complicated. Astrophysical research is maybe easier. I just know that I'm a one piece of pizza guy. 2 pieces and I gain weight. That's not complicated, just the why of it. My wife makes a heckuva good pizza which makes 1 piece a tough call.

I haven't read The Renaissance Diet by Dr. Israetel. Do you have an executive summary for us?
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Old 01-30-19, 02:56 PM
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Just a low carb update..... I started on an improvised low carb diet in mid-November..At the time my weight was 194.5 lbs and my BP was 170/100. I was getting the BP down into a marginally acceptable range by drinking 100% organic beet juice. It was getting down to around 140/90 or so. I looked at the Keto diet and knew I was not going to be able to eat 50 g or less of carbs on a daily basis. So, I set a goal of 100-150 g of carbs while cutting out processed carbs and cutting down on sugar. I also set my daily calorie goal at 2,000 or less. I've been really good at hitting those targets. Also attempted to limit alcohol and have been fairly successful. Update: After a week or two my BP went down to 125/81 (without beet juice) and has stayed there. I have also lost weight. This morning I was 187.2 lbs. I find that I feel full on less and I have more energy. I've also lost close to 2" in my waist. Looking forward to seeing how this works on the bike.
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Old 01-30-19, 11:02 PM
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Calorie restriction definitely leads to weight loss, and weight (fat) loss definitely improves blood pressure. Glad to hear you're doing well!
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Old 01-31-19, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Calorie restriction definitely leads to weight loss, and weight (fat) loss definitely improves blood pressure. Glad to hear you're doing well!
My ND and cycling friend says it's all about a reduction in inflammation caused by processed carbs.
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Old 01-31-19, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
My ND and cycling friend says it's all about a reduction in inflammation caused by processed carbs.
I would take anything said by an "ND" with a large grain of salt if I were you.

Think about what "processed" even means. It's a pretty nebulous word. Lots of food is processed, and often in wildly different ways. Where do you draw the line, and which processing methods actually cause inflammation? Cooking something is "processing" it in a way. Would a bowl of bran flakes (processed, plus in milk which is also processed) cause inflammation? The Mediterranean diet is generally considered the best one out there, and it contains lots of bread and pasta, both of which have lots of "processed" carbs.
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Old 01-31-19, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
My ND and cycling friend says it's all about a reduction in inflammation caused by processed carbs.
Yeah, that's really popular right now. Was gluten a while ago, the devil's wheat.
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Old 01-31-19, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post

I haven't read The Renaissance Diet by Dr. Israetel. Do you have an executive summary for us?
I have yet to read it either. But, if his facebook posts, and other online articles, are any indication, it probably doesn't have anything that is too crazy are far apart from the main stream way of thinking. I find myself saying "yeah, that makes sense" for pretty much everything he says.
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Old 01-31-19, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I would take anything said by an "ND" with a large grain of salt if I were you.
Why are NDs any more questionable than MDs? I've had lots of experience with both and I respect the intelligence and knowledge of both. And, FWIW, they have worked well together when I've had occasion to use both to address an issue.
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Old 01-31-19, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Why are NDs any more questionable than MDs? I've had lots of experience with both and I respect the intelligence and knowledge of both. And, FWIW, they have worked well together when I've had occasion to use both to address an issue.
I think Tim Minchin says it best:

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Old 01-31-19, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Why are NDs any more questionable than MDs? I've had lots of experience with both and I respect the intelligence and knowledge of both. And, FWIW, they have worked well together when I've had occasion to use both to address an issue.
If I understood correctly the N in the ND means naturopathic. A little googling tells me that ND is a naturopathic doctor so a person who has been trained and licensed to be a medical doctor but practices naturopathy.

So I'd say that I wouldn't listen to an ND, because it's pretty clear they didn't pay much attention in medical school. If they had, they'd know that alternative medicine that works isn't actually alternative at all. If it actually works and can be shown to work and to be safe with scientific study, it's adopted in to actual medicine quite rapidly. Because that's kinda how medical science works.
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Old 01-31-19, 01:17 PM
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My veggie diet with zero carb restrictions has kept me healthy and left me near 130 pounds my entire life. (5'7") No counting calories or carbs ever. Go figure.
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Old 01-31-19, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Why are NDs any more questionable than MDs? I've had lots of experience with both and I respect the intelligence and knowledge of both. And, FWIW, they have worked well together when I've had occasion to use both to address an issue.
One is a highly trained person requiring great intelligence to even be accepted for training into their field. The other is someone with questionable credentials largely based on pseudo-science. "Alternative" medicine, in general, is BS.
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Old 01-31-19, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
If I understood correctly the N in the ND means naturopathic. A little googling tells me that ND is a naturopathic doctor so a person who has been trained and licensed to be a medical doctor but practices naturopathy.
I'm pretty sure that isn't true in most places. The vast majority of them aren't doctors and should not be calling themselves doctors.
Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
So I'd say that I wouldn't listen to an ND, because it's pretty clear they didn't pay much attention in medical school. If they had, they'd know that alternative medicine that works isn't actually alternative at all. If it actually works and can be shown to work and to be safe with scientific study, it's adopted in to actual medicine quite rapidly. Because that's kinda how medical science works.
Question: what do you call "alternative medicine" that has been proven to work?
Answer: medicine.

Edit to add: shoot, that (funny) video already said my joke.

Last edited by OBoile; 01-31-19 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 01-31-19, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
If I understood correctly the N in the ND means naturopathic. A little googling tells me that ND is a naturopathic doctor so a person who has been trained and licensed to be a medical doctor but practices naturopathy.

So I'd say that I wouldn't listen to an ND, because it's pretty clear they didn't pay much attention in medical school. If they had, they'd know that alternative medicine that works isn't actually alternative at all. If it actually works and can be shown to work and to be safe with scientific study, it's adopted in to actual medicine quite rapidly. Because that's kinda how medical science works.
According to what I've read, the first 2 years of ND & MD medical school are the same. Treatments such as acupuncture and message therapy work within their medical/health parameters but are not taught in traditional medical school. Why not?
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Old 01-31-19, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
One is a highly trained person requiring great intelligence to even be accepted for training into their field. The other is someone with questionable credentials largely based on pseudo-science. "Alternative" medicine, in general, is BS.
What you are saying is not true. The Chinese, for example, do not agree that alternative medicine is BS. And, neither does actual science.
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Old 01-31-19, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I'm pretty sure that isn't true in most places. The vast majority of them aren't doctors and should not be calling themselves doctors.

Question: what do you call "alternative medicine" that has been proven to work?
Answer: medicine.

Edit to add: shoot, that (funny) video already said my joke.
https://aanmc.org/resources/licensure/
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Old 01-31-19, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
According to what I've read, the first 2 years of ND & MD medical school are the same. Treatments such as acupuncture and message therapy work within their medical/health parameters but are not taught in traditional medical school. Why not?
Because Big Pharma. Let it be the forefront of all your argument. It controls everything.
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Old 01-31-19, 02:05 PM
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I cycle with 4 MDs and 2 NDs. I've had lots of discussions with all these people about the medical profession especially the interface with MDs and NDs. I also ride motorcycles with a friend who recently finished his internship and is now an ER MD at Yale-New Haven. None of them have ever disparaged the ND profession . But, what would they know? They don't post on BF.
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