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Cycling and Carbs

Old 01-31-19, 02:06 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Because Big Pharma. Let it be the forefront of all your argument. It controls everything.
Big Pharma and the AMA.
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Old 01-31-19, 02:10 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Your link proves my point.
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Old 01-31-19, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
What you are saying is not true. The Chinese, for example, do not agree that alternative medicine is BS. And, neither does actual science.
Whether Chinese (or any other) people agree or not is irrelevant. Facts are.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/category/naturopathy/
Millions of Americans think vaccines are evil, man made global warming doesn't exist and even that the world is flat. This does not make these things true.

Better yet, just call your ND on his statement. Ask him what exactly "processed carbs" are? Does the process of cooking something make it "processed"? Is a processed glucose molecule different from an unprocessed one? What exactly is it in the "processing" process of these carbs that will later cause inflammation? What is it specifically about carbs that makes processing them bad, but herbal remedies in pill form are okay? How did, as posted above, a man eat McDonald's for 6 months and still had normal levels of blood pressure? I'm pretty sure that, whatever it means to process carbs, McDonald's has a lot of them.

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Old 01-31-19, 02:29 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
According to what I've read, the first 2 years of ND & MD medical school are the same. Treatments such as acupuncture and message therapy work within their medical/health parameters but are not taught in traditional medical school. Why not?
Probably because acupuncture is a sham and massage therapy has very questionable efficacy.
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Old 01-31-19, 02:39 PM
  #80  
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Jesus OBoile you sound just like Trump. I'm done.
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Old 01-31-19, 02:55 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Jesus OBoile you sound just like Trump. I'm done.
I sound like Trump? Really? I'm not the one going against science.
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Old 01-31-19, 03:04 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I sound like Trump? Really? I'm not the one going against science.
Really. Neither am I going against science if you actually look at the science. You, OTOH, know what you know because you know it.
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Old 01-31-19, 03:09 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Jesus OBoile you sound just like Trump. I'm done.
I'm a nutcase progressive, but I'm also fact-based. That's key to being progressive. Science is real. OBoile is mostly, maybe entirely correct. And Chinese medicine that works, survives clinical trials. Just because something is herbal doesn't mean it doesn't contain powerful pharmaceuticals. Many of the industrial world's pharmaceuticals were discovered in plants, then purified, then manufactured. Please post some RCT's showing that you are correct.

I'll never go near an ND. One almost killed my wife. Religion is not to be trusted. The only poor interactions with MDs I've had were with ones who were controlled by an HMO and couldn't practice ordinary medicine. There is for sure danger in corporatism. OTOH we're using computers, right? MD's are scientists. Sometimes scientists get it right, sometimes wrong, but at least they're proceeding according to facts, as best we know them.

Quacks are incredibly prolific in the field of nutrition, simply because it's so complicated that there are many things which are unknown, even to scientists. Unknown territory is where religion and snake-oil thrive.

A good example is that it's relatively well-known that a keto diet improves one's cholesterol numbers. However . . .there's zero evidence of that diet and numbers increasing longevity and some evidence of the opposite.
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Old 01-31-19, 03:19 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Really. Neither am I going against science if you actually look at the science. You, OTOH, know what you know because you know it.
Dude... you're the one promoting acupuncture. What's next? Homeopathy? Oh wait, this Naturopathy textbook supports that too.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/naturopathy-textbook/

Acupuncture is presented as an effective treatment modality. Qi, acupoints, and meridians are imaginary pre-scientific concepts with no basis in anatomy or physiology; yet here they are presented as facts. This chapter uncritically asserts things like “Rebellious Qi manifests as belching, burping, and vomiting, a reversal of the normal downward movement of Qi digestively”. This is mythology, not science. A rigorously scientific examination of the claims and evidence for acupuncture has led to the conclusion that it is a theatrical placebo. The chapter does not acknowledge such criticisms.
Homeopathy is covered in a long chapter that repeats the usual flawed arguments for homeopathy. These have been adequately rebutted elsewhere. While positive studies do exist, the scientific consensus based on the totality of published evidence is that homeopathy is not effective for anything. The chapter insists that it is effective and says, “Homeopathy is representative of a principle found throughout nature and its role in bringing forth concepts of resonance, constitution, and holism are shared throughout fields of science and healing”. If this means anything, it is not science.

I "know" what I know (more accurately, it would be I believe what I believe) because that is what the current evidence-based opinion of top scientists is.

And all this because I suggested you take his (unproven at best) assertion with a grain of salt.
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Old 01-31-19, 03:41 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Dude... you're the one promoting acupuncture. What's next? Homeopathy? Oh wait, this Naturopathy textbook supports that too.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/naturopathy-textbook/






I "know" what I know (more accurately, it would be I believe what I believe) because that is what the current evidence-based opinion of top scientists is.

And all this because I suggested you take his (unproven at best) assertion with a grain of salt.
You make a lot of assumptions, Dude. I am not advocating anything. But, my experience is that there are alternative medical practices that work. If you do some research you will find scientific evidence that supports this. Ever heard of the Hippocratic Oath? The Father of Naturopathic Medicine is Hippocrates. Same guy. As for my ND friend..."he" is a she. And, she happens to be brilliant. But, that's not why I listen to her. I listen to her because she has saved me from some of my MDs who have put me on meds that almost killed me. Literally. I've had very bad experiences with a GP and a Cardiologist. But, I don't go around on BF telling people that traditional western medicine is bulll****. My experience may not be your experience and I understand that my answer may not be your experience.
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Old 01-31-19, 04:16 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
My ND and cycling friend says it's all about a reduction in inflammation caused by processed carbs.
Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
You make a lot of assumptions, Dude. I am not advocating anything. But, my experience is that there are alternative medical practices that work. If you do some research you will find scientific evidence that supports this. Ever heard of the Hippocratic Oath? The Father of Naturopathic Medicine is Hippocrates. Same guy. As for my ND friend..."he" is a she. And, she happens to be brilliant. But, that's not why I listen to her. I listen to her because she has saved me from some of my MDs who have put me on meds that almost killed me. Literally. I've had very bad experiences with a GP and a Cardiologist. But, I don't go around on BF telling people that traditional western medicine is bulll****. My experience may not be your experience and I understand that my answer may not be your experience.
I'm not going to namecall, but can you provide this evidence?
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Old 01-31-19, 04:18 PM
  #87  
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Just to try to put this in a different perspective. Hopefully to clarify my point of view. There is a thing called the "Placebo Effect." I'm sure you've heard of it. When I was running for public office in Mansfield, CT (home of UCONN) a guy named Irv Kirsch was a supporter of mine. Came to my house for dinner a couple times. He moved on to Harvard and did studies on the Placebo Effect. I mention him because if you Google him you will find a video of him on 60 Minutes. I will spare us all the details but Irv's studies concluded that people who were given a placebo had profound medical benefits when they thought they were being given drugs for their illnesses. How is that possible? It's not real medicine. It's not western medicine. It's about the power of something else. The mind? Spirit? I don't know but Science says it's real. So, I wouldn't be so quick to discount alternative approaches to medicine. My suggestion is to remain open and find what works for you. If you close yourself off to possibilities you close yourself off to possibilities.
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Old 01-31-19, 05:02 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
I'm not going to namecall, but can you provide this evidence?
What evidence do you want? Not sure what you're asking. But, I think my reference to Placebo Effect would be one of them.
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Old 01-31-19, 05:29 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
What evidence do you want? Not sure what you're asking. But, I think my reference to Placebo Effect would be one of them.
That cutting down on "processed" carbs reduced inflammation resulting in your weightloss and reduced blood pressure
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Old 01-31-19, 05:41 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
That cutting down on "processed" carbs reduced inflammation resulting in your weightloss and reduced blood pressure
Thank you. Let me look around. I have a ton of vids. And, I will ask my ND friend for info. Going there Saturday night for dinner. She has a show called Radio Naturopath on UCONN radio. She might have a show on that topic. I'll check.
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Old 01-31-19, 05:50 PM
  #91  
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Here's one cite for foods that cause inflammation: https://www.arthritis.org/living-wit...ammation-7.php

Note: #6 refined carbs

And, the connection between high BP and inflammation: https://www.webmd.com/hypertension-h...essure-risks#1
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Old 01-31-19, 06:44 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I would take anything said by an "ND" with a large grain of salt if I were you.

Think about what "processed" even means. It's a pretty nebulous word. Lots of food is processed, and often in wildly different ways. Where do you draw the line, and which processing methods actually cause inflammation? Cooking something is "processing" it in a way. Would a bowl of bran flakes (processed, plus in milk which is also processed) cause inflammation? The Mediterranean diet is generally considered the best one out there, and it contains lots of bread and pasta, both of which have lots of "processed" carbs.
Here is what it means.....Yogurt which is natural milk processed by lactic acid bacteria into a healthful food....and Dairy Queen Blizzard which is processed by the devil himself into a chemical cocktail of ingredients which aren't fit for human consumption....You decide which of these processed foods is better for long term health and wellbeing.
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Old 01-31-19, 06:53 PM
  #93  
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https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/l...iet-endurance/
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Old 01-31-19, 07:52 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
If I understood correctly the N in the ND means naturopathic. A little googling tells me that ND is a naturopathic doctor so a person who has been trained and licensed to be a medical doctor but practices naturopathy.

So I'd say that I wouldn't listen to an ND, because it's pretty clear they didn't pay much attention in medical school. If they had, they'd know that alternative medicine that works isn't actually alternative at all. If it actually works and can be shown to work and to be safe with scientific study, it's adopted in to actual medicine quite rapidly. Because that's kinda how medical science works.
​​​​​​All of this.

When you go to the doctor, you get 5 or 10 rushed minutes, and some pills. For $300, although nobody actually pays that. When you go to a homeopath or whatever, the person spends more like an hour, they listen to you, they tell you that have just the thing. Now the thing they sell you is a placebo, but the placebo effect is real, and it's probably strengthened by the level of personal attention. Now that's not going to cure cancer or any other medical ailment, but it makes a lot of people feel better.
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Old 01-31-19, 07:56 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
What you are saying is not true. The Chinese, for example, do not agree that alternative medicine is BS. And, neither does actual science.
"Alternative medicine" means treatments that actual science had found lacking. That's why they're alternative.
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Old 01-31-19, 07:58 PM
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For this rando season, I'm going to switch from mostly carb fueled to mostly fat fueled. Maybe I'll pork out, flame out, stroke out, clog my arteries, or have a good season. I'll be yet another experiment where n=1, thus statistically insignificant. For darn sure, nobody's mind in here is going to be changed.

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Old 01-31-19, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Better yet, just call your ND on his statement. Ask him what exactly "processed carbs" are? Does the process of cooking something make it "processed"? Is a processed glucose molecule different from an unprocessed one? What exactly is it in the "processing" process of these carbs that will later cause inflammation?


That's not fair.
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Old 01-31-19, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Here is what it means.....Yogurt which is natural milk processed by lactic acid bacteria into a healthful food....and Dairy Queen Blizzard which is processed by the devil himself into a chemical cocktail of ingredients which aren't fit for human consumption....You decide which of these processed foods is better for long term health and wellbeing.
You're making the point that I think you're arguing against. Both of those foods are "processed." If you just go by the rule "don't eat processed foods" you can't have the healthy, protein rich yogurt. If you just go by "processed," then they're the same. So, clearly, there's more to this than whether some kind of food has been through some kind of process to prepare it.

When I was a kid, we had corn on the cob pretty often. My brother and I sat there shucking it. Didn't know it at the time, but we were processing our food.

That's what @O'Boile was getting at. I personally wouldn't have brought it up because there's already enough confusion in this thread, but it's a valid point. I think the TL;DR version is you should think a little instead of following rules from Pinterest.
​​​​​​
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Old 02-01-19, 12:13 AM
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Just wow. I can't believe that no one noticed that the "placebo" argument is silliness. When they do an RCT, one side gets the placebo, the other side gets the trial whatever that is. Then they usually switch sides and reverse the placebo and trial. So there's no placebo effect. Any placebo effect is going to be an n=1 or other completely unscientific situation, which we can discard hopefully without discussion. Really folks.

Then there's this silly business about sugar causing inflammation, Everyone knows that's true, right? So find me an isocaloric RCT that substantiates that hypothesis, OK? Kenyan runners have pure white sugar as 20% of calories and they seem to do just fine. My personal experience is that it's BS.
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Old 02-01-19, 12:41 AM
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There's a lot to unpack so I'll need to do this in parts. Apparently 3 or 4 posts is the maximum allowed multiquote or my computer just isn't up to the task.

Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
What you are saying is not true. The Chinese, for example, do not agree that alternative medicine is BS. And, neither does actual science.
Well actual science does look into chinese medicine and most of it doesn't work. Some of it does to some extent but the reasons aren't exactly known. For example acupuncture does seem to have a greater effect than placebo and it is being studied why this may be.

Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Because Big Pharma. Let it be the forefront of all your argument. It controls everything.
Ah yes. Big Pharma. The evil boogieman that is keeping me alive and functional. It's a good thing my family gets the monthly corruption money to keep us silent to all their secrets.

Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
I cycle with 4 MDs and 2 NDs. I've had lots of discussions with all these people about the medical profession especially the interface with MDs and NDs. I also ride motorcycles with a friend who recently finished his internship and is now an ER MD at Yale-New Haven. None of them have ever disparaged the ND profession . But, what would they know? They don't post on BF.
Most likely they are being polite. They probably don't want to waste a good ride arguing with someone about naturopathy so going with the flow is the easiest way for them. Considering how militant some alternative medicine kooks can be, it could totally ruin riding with that group in the future. Also doctors in general seem to be a very polite bunch. At least the dozen I know well personally and the significantly higher group of acquaintances all seem to be this way, with some exceptions of course.

My wife is a MD, her whole family is MD's, her granpa was one of the biggest names in Finnish medical field in his day and through my wife I've the privilege of spending a lot of time with doctors some of whom are close friends. And I'll tell you that all the doctors I know are VEHEMENTLY against alternative medicine. At the least they think it's useless and on top of that it is a lot of times dangerous. Look at the antivax movement for example. People are starting do die because of preventable ilnesses for no good reason.

But with all that in mind, doctors don't generally disparage other people in public. It's one of the codes in our society that you just don't go on hateful rants against a group of people in public.
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