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Use my computer for 30/20 minute indoor LTHR test?

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Use my computer for 30/20 minute indoor LTHR test?

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Old 02-02-19, 05:39 PM
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Use my computer for 30/20 minute indoor LTHR test?

I've ridden indoors a few times and my legs are starting to tone up, though I have some problems.

But here's the main one: I've blithely assumed my Elemnt can help me do a 30 LTHR test (NOT LTP!), where I ride for 10 minutes, set my HR monitor to run or on a new lap, ride my butt off for 20 minutes, and read off the average HR after the bell goes off. That average HR can be taken as an approximation of my heart rate at lactate threshold. For me, it's straightforward to extend this number to identify the zones that Chapple uses to give guidance on the rest of base training. Simple, right?

Not really. First, the Element controls a Wahoo Snap that has 5 levels of static loading, and my bike has 20 gears. Being an experiienced road rider I'm adept (as I'm sure we all are) at selecting gear and cadence on the road or on a good basic wind load simulator like a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine, which I still have. I can put the bike on the Kurt and do the test that way. But here's more: on fixed level loading, the Snap is programmed to load constant power, so it increases resistance as the wheel speed decreases. The Kurt in contrast uses a law of fluid resistance that is designed to represent a bike experiencing increasing air resistance as it speeds up - naturally dynamic loading.

So the Snap/Element is not suitable without some special programming, The Companion App has built in LTP tests for 30 minutes and for 8-minutes, but no LTHR tests.

Does anybody know if there is a training app for the Wahoo system (Snap and Elemnt) that looks at my road speed as fed back from the Snap, and controls the resistance to mimic wind?
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Old 02-02-19, 09:13 PM
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I'd use the Kurt. All the mimic stuff is contraindicated for what you want to do, which is to hold a steady level of your best cadence for the whole duration. Like I'm best at exactly 96 rpm for tests like this - low enough to generate power and not just tire my legs, high enough that my legs don't give out until about 30" before the end. That's the one critical element. There isn't another one. Your best cadence of course will be different, but you need to experiment to find out what it is or you won't get a good test.

What's an LTP test?
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Old 02-03-19, 09:00 AM
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I've certainly seen in Chapple that there is a distinction between approximating lactate threshold using a power test (lactate threshold power test = LTP test) and using a heart rate test (lactate threshold heart rate test = LTHR test). I haven't studied the LTHR procedure because I don't intend to do it.

Yay on the Kurt. It will mimic wind based on its design. For the Wahoo, I would have to somehow program the system to electronically mimic wind. Yeah, I'm a degreed electrical engineer and historically we like to "fart around with it until it works," but I don't want to study it and I don't want to spend time on it. Plus I think I cut the class on Wahoo when I was in school. Thanks!

Today to do a bunch of my other work, but also to revisit my saddle positioning and see if that improves my pedaling.
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Old 02-03-19, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
But here's more: on fixed level loading, the Snap is programmed to load constant power, so it increases resistance as the wheel speed decreases.
It sounds like you're running the Snap in erg mode. If you run in Level mode, it should behave like a fluid trainer.https://support.wahoofitness.com/hc/...cles/204281764
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Old 02-03-19, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I've certainly seen in Chapple that there is a distinction between approximating lactate threshold using a power test (lactate threshold power test = LTP test) and using a heart rate test (lactate threshold heart rate test = LTHR test). I haven't studied the LTHR procedure because I don't intend to do it.

Yay on the Kurt. It will mimic wind based on its design. For the Wahoo, I would have to somehow program the system to electronically mimic wind. Yeah, I'm a degreed electrical engineer and historically we like to "fart around with it until it works," but I don't want to study it and I don't want to spend time on it. Plus I think I cut the class on Wahoo when I was in school. Thanks!

Today to do a bunch of my other work, but also to revisit my saddle positioning and see if that improves my pedaling.
I recommend starting with the heel-on-pedal test, then fine tune to get a good feeling of power during the pull-back at the bottom. First, get the shoes and pedals, 'cause you'll have to redo it after.
https://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/tec...road-bike.html
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Old 02-03-19, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
It sounds like you're running the Snap in erg mode. If you run in Level mode, it should behave like a fluid trainer.https://support.wahoofitness.com/hc/...cles/204281764
Yes, I looked into it and I agree! I thought I did a thorough search through the available Wahoo info, but I didn't find this. Thank you! It looks like I can use one of the Levels to do pedaling and base. Thanks!

I wish I still had the power versus speed curve that came with my old Kurt Kinetic.
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Old 02-03-19, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Yes, I looked into it and I agree! I thought I did a thorough search through the available Wahoo info, but I didn't find this. Thank you! It looks like I can use one of the Levels to do pedaling and base. Thanks!

I wish I still had the power versus speed curve that came with my old Kurt Kinetic.
wouldn't the snap just show your power during the 30 min test?
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Old 02-03-19, 08:54 PM
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I'm trying to test HR, not power because I don't have a power sensor for on road use and really don't plan to buy one soon. And the method is that I have to compute an average HR over 20 minutes, after a 10 minute warm up//spin up.
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Old 02-03-19, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I'm trying to test HR, not power because I don't have a power sensor for on road use and really don't plan to buy one soon. And the method is that I have to compute an average HR over 20 minutes, after a 10 minute warm up//spin up.
You said you wanted a power/speed curve. Doesn’t the Snap transmit (or have the capability to) power and speed to the Elemnt? Make your own curve.
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Old 02-03-19, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I'm trying to test HR, not power because I don't have a power sensor for on road use and really don't plan to buy one soon. And the method is that I have to compute an average HR over 20 minutes, after a 10 minute warm up//spin up.
ok but if you use power to pace then wouldnt the snap provide that? What's the point in having a power curve for the kurt kinetic? Also why wouldnt you just do and FTP test to use for indoor training with power since you have a snap? Use power to inform your RPE and HR so you can pace better without power outside
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Old 02-04-19, 06:23 AM
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@redlude97 and @asgelle

1. Ok, the idea is that I want to do the 20 min TT that will give me a decent estimate of my current LT heart rate. I'm starting base training now. I plan to train using HR, not power. I don't have an on-road power meter.

2. I want to do the TT with a familiar loading. I know my Kurt (a really early Road Machine) feels natural. Based on the Kurt curve, I want to choose a Wahoo Level that is close to that, and will also feel natural.

3. For indoor training I can use power to pace of course, and hence to help calibrate my RPE and HR awareness. But I need to start and to start with what I know, and that is HR. My zones will be set up based on HR, since when training outdoors I would use HR. The training bike is a pretty nice vintage road bike one and I don't want to put a power crank on it with a Star Wars look, and the drivetrain is Campagnolo so I don't want to add a Shimano or SRAM chainset. May seem lightweight, but that's the way it is.

If I luck into a nice set of used pedal sensors that would be different, but I still need to start with HR. I want to get focused on the riding, not the bike. My pedal stroke needs a a lot of work. I might go for a set of clipon pedals and shoes to facilitate the pedal stroke training. Been off the bike mostly for a year, and pedaling does not feel smooth right now.
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Old 02-04-19, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I recommend starting with the heel-on-pedal test, then fine tune to get a good feeling of power during the pull-back at the bottom. First, get the shoes and pedals, 'cause you'll have to redo it after.
https://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/tec...road-bike.html
Ok, I did heel on pedal after a brief warm up to make sure my butt is in a good position, and lowered the seatpost 3 mm, which helped. Before lowering my heels were just floating over teh pedal, and the 3 mm drop brought them into place. I did it with a set of old double-sided platforms with toeclips on one side (the ones from my 1952 Rudge which is under reconstruction). When I turned the pedals over to see how it works, my feet felt very secure. One reason is probably the fit improvement, and another is the teeth on the pedal flanges combined with the settings of the straps. I went back to my MKS platforms (single sided) and tightened the straps for the same amount of shoe friction as the old pedals. That was an additional improvement. But basically my pedaling became a lot more comfortable up to 75 to 80 rpm, by which time some fatigue was settling in. So I called it a good day! My setback is the kneecap is about about 1 cm ahead of the pedal spindle. I always find it ambiguous to find the correct body marking point for a setback measurement. The widest point on the Toupe saddle is 27.1 cm behind the plumb line. I also elevated the saddle nose a little more than one degree to reduce the sensation of falling forward off the saddle.

If I have to re-do it later, that's ok with me.
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Old 02-04-19, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
My pedal stroke needs a a lot of work. I might go for a set of clipon pedals and shoes to facilitate the pedal stroke training.
Just ride and your pedal stroke will sort itself out.
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Old 02-04-19, 10:02 AM
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FTP doesn't matter. Workout using a combination of fixed power, duration and frequency that produces a cardiac drift of 5-10%. Done.
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Old 02-04-19, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Ok, I did heel on pedal after a brief warm up to make sure my butt is in a good position, and lowered the seatpost 3 mm, which helped. Before lowering my heels were just floating over teh pedal, and the 3 mm drop brought them into place. I did it with a set of old double-sided platforms with toeclips on one side (the ones from my 1952 Rudge which is under reconstruction). When I turned the pedals over to see how it works, my feet felt very secure. One reason is probably the fit improvement, and another is the teeth on the pedal flanges combined with the settings of the straps. I went back to my MKS platforms (single sided) and tightened the straps for the same amount of shoe friction as the old pedals. That was an additional improvement. But basically my pedaling became a lot more comfortable up to 75 to 80 rpm, by which time some fatigue was settling in. So I called it a good day! My setback is the kneecap is about about 1 cm ahead of the pedal spindle. I always find it ambiguous to find the correct body marking point for a setback measurement. The widest point on the Toupe saddle is 27.1 cm behind the plumb line. I also elevated the saddle nose a little more than one degree to reduce the sensation of falling forward off the saddle.

If I have to re-do it later, that's ok with me.
Wow. You post on BF and you get advice. Who knew?

On setback, personally I ignore KOPS other than as a good starting point. Works for some, not for me as I'm rather long-torsoed, or as some would unfortunately put it, short-legged. I adjust saddle fore-and-aft position so that, with a level saddle and while pedaling normally on the flat or my rollers, I can briefly lift my hands off the bars without sliding forward on the saddle. I don't use a raised nose to prevent that because if I do that, I get numbies or saddle sores on very long rides, and I don't want those. That also reduces weight on my arms and hands and removes the tiredness and possible pain that can accompany that.

Remember that your first test will be a learning experience and quite tiring. You'll have to repeat the test a few times to fine-tune the result. I usually don't test more often then once a month, but you could probably do it once a week just fine.
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Old 02-04-19, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Wow. You post on BF and you get advice. Who knew?

On setback, personally I ignore KOPS other than as a good starting point. Works for some, not for me as I'm rather long-torsoed, or as some would unfortunately put it, short-legged. I adjust saddle fore-and-aft position so that, with a level saddle and while pedaling normally on the flat or my rollers, I can briefly lift my hands off the bars without sliding forward on the saddle. I don't use a raised nose to prevent that because if I do that, I get numbies or saddle sores on very long rides, and I don't want those. That also reduces weight on my arms and hands and removes the tiredness and possible pain that can accompany that.
Actually, I'm stunned, amazed and totally pleased by all the support!
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Old 02-04-19, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Actually, I'm stunned, amazed and totally pleased by all the support!
Our pleasure. I edited my post though I should have done a new one.
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Old 02-04-19, 04:12 PM
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I thought the whole 30 minutes were supposed to be all out for an LT test?
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Old 02-04-19, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I thought the whole 30 minutes were supposed to be all out for an LT test?
But i think you only average the last 20'. That being the case, I'm not sure how useful it is until one is really in good shape. Before then, one's going to have to not push too hard so as not to fade at the end. And is that the metric that's going to be the most useful for programming? I have had good success in using the LTHR I used at the end of last season when I start the new season. Working at that level, I can gradually extend the time I can spend there. IME power over time period, FTP I suppose, increases faster if stimulated at the high end than at the low end.

If one is totally at sea in the LTHR area, there's a really simple way to start out: Gradually, over a period of maybe 1/2 hour, increase the intensity, keeping the HR always rising, but rising very slowly. At first, you'll just be breathing a bit deeper, then deeper still, then rather suddenly your breathing rate increases, then continues to increase. You fight the increase as best you're able by belly-breathing with each breath, taking full lung-fulls. But as the intensity keeps going up, eventually one reaches a point where deep and rapid breathing isn't enough and one begins to pant. When you reach that point, back off the effort a bit until you stop panting. Then slowly increase again until you pant, then back off again. The HR you have when you're just below panting is good enough to use for LTHR.
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Old 02-04-19, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
But i think you only average the last 20'. That being the case, I'm not sure how useful it is until one is really in good shape. Before then, one's going to have to not push too hard so as not to fade at the end. And is that the metric that's going to be the most useful for programming? I have had good success in using the LTHR I used at the end of last season when I start the new season. Working at that level, I can gradually extend the time I can spend there. IME power over time period, FTP I suppose, increases faster if stimulated at the high end than at the low end.

If one is totally at sea in the LTHR area, there's a really simple way to start out: Gradually, over a period of maybe 1/2 hour, increase the intensity, keeping the HR always rising, but rising very slowly. At first, you'll just be breathing a bit deeper, then deeper still, then rather suddenly your breathing rate increases, then continues to increase. You fight the increase as best you're able by belly-breathing with each breath, taking full lung-fulls. But as the intensity keeps going up, eventually one reaches a point where deep and rapid breathing isn't enough and one begins to pant. When you reach that point, back off the effort a bit until you stop panting. Then slowly increase again until you pant, then back off again. The HR you have when you're just below panting is good enough to use for LTHR.
you dont have to increase intensity to slowly increase HR. Your cardiac drift takes care of that.
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Old 02-06-19, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
It sounds like you're running the Snap in erg mode. If you run in Level mode, it should behave like a fluid trainer.https://support.wahoofitness.com/hc/...cles/204281764
This link actually leads to the Wahoo power curves for all Level modes! I also found an equation on TrainerRoad that users said is a good match to the performance they've recorded on their own Kurt trainers. By studying the different curves if I do my base on the Snap running on the Level 2 range, it should feel similar to my old Kurt Kinetic.
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Old 02-08-19, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
It sounds like you're running the Snap in erg mode. If you run in Level mode, it should behave like a fluid trainer.https://support.wahoofitness.com/hc/...cles/204281764
This link actually leads to the Wahoo power curves for all Level modes! I also found an equation on TrainerRoad that users said is a good match to the performance they've recorded on their own Kurt trainers. By studying the different curves if I do my base on the Snap running on the Level 2 range, it should feel similar to my old Kurt Kinetic.
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