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(How To) Cardiac Drift - A Different Way of Looking at Indoor Training

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(How To) Cardiac Drift - A Different Way of Looking at Indoor Training

Old 02-15-19, 04:50 AM
  #51  
fstrnu
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OP updated to be more succinct
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Old 02-15-19, 05:17 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
19.5 km with 1273 metres of climbing.


OK, now how do you know? Have you done the training you suggest, and have then done a climbing challenge outside?
I know because what I suggest is that you lose some weight. I believe everyone will agree with me. Losing weight is what you need. Helps with climbing.
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Old 02-15-19, 06:09 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
I know because what I suggest is that you lose some weight. I believe everyone will agree with me. Losing weight is what you need. Helps with climbing.
So ... the two times I've done the climb, I weighed about 59 kg. How much weight should I lose?

And what does that have to do with indoor cycling?

And what does that have to do with YOU doing a similar climb after your suggested training program? Have you ever done a similar climb?
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Old 02-15-19, 06:31 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
I'm puzzled at the general hostility about indoor training. Why are people who hate indoor training even in these threads. Do whatever you want, man. It's all good, yo.
It's not hostility towards indoor training. It's hostility towards a charlatan with little to no understanding of training starting thread after thread of regurgitated nonsense with the basic premise that everyone that doesn't do what he's suggesting is a mindless sheep.

It's hostility toward you, yo.
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Old 02-15-19, 06:31 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Do you remember what 3 x 3 x 3 represents from the video?
Do you remember believe from the video that fitness equals VO2Max and endurance equals percent vo2max? Which is silly... There is a whole lot from your video that IMO isn't worth analyzing or arguing over, let alone quizzing someone.

Do you believe that the relationship between internal and external load reflects fitness?
You need to define what you think that relationship is before your question makes any sense. If you're referring to metabolic efficiency then NO it does not necessarily reflect fitness. It sometimes improves for an individual when he becomes more fit. I hope that you see that there is a difference there,
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Old 02-15-19, 06:42 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Sorry I missed this one because it started with side conversation. The idea is to minimize variability. Consistent conditions. Consistent diet. Consistent training. Consistent sleep quality. The inputs to the session have everything to do with goals for that session. Pace alone isn't enough. You need to manage all three programming variables.
Look I don't care if you want to be a BS artist but don't do it off of my posts because I'll feel insulted and point out where the BS is. In this case the BS is that "managing" those "programming variables" has absolutely anything to do with the points I was making to Hermes. They don't, because that variability invalidates your method, and you can't just say "keep everything consistent, even stuff that I don't know about" and expect that to dismiss it.

. You're just saying just buzzwords anyway. "Manage your life stress if you want to train properly" for example - don't even pretend that we're suckers enough to let a pretend fitness guru go there.
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Old 02-15-19, 06:45 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
"Manage your life stress if you want to train properly" for example - don't even pretend that we're suckers enough to let a pretend fitness guru go there.
No kidding!!

I'd like to see what he'd do with my life stress over the past year!!
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Old 02-15-19, 07:19 AM
  #58  
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Sounds to me like you're getting pressed stressed right now. I recommend breathing exercises. Breathe in and out. Just normal breathing. All you have to do is pay attention to the point at which breathing in becomes breathing out and vice versa. There now. Isn't that better?

Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Do you remember believe from the video that fitness equals VO2Max and endurance equals percent vo2max? Which is silly... There is a whole lot from your video that IMO isn't worth analyzing or arguing over, let alone quizzing someone.



You need to define what you think that relationship is before your question makes any sense. If you're referring to metabolic efficiency then NO it does not necessarily reflect fitness. It sometimes improves for an individual when he becomes more fit. I hope that you see that there is a difference there,
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Look I don't care if you want to be a BS artist but don't do it off of my posts because I'll feel insulted and point out where the BS is. In this case the BS is that "managing" those "programming variables" has absolutely anything to do with the points I was making to Hermes. They don't, because that variability invalidates your method, and you can't just say "keep everything consistent, even stuff that I don't know about" and expect that to dismiss it.

. You're just saying just buzzwords anyway. "Manage your life stress if you want to train properly" for example - don't even pretend that we're suckers enough to let a pretend fitness guru go there.
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Old 02-15-19, 07:21 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Sounds to me like you're getting pressed stressed right now. I recommend breathing exercises. Breathe in and out. Just normal breathing. All you have to do is pay attention to the point at which breathing in becomes breathing out and vice versa. There now. Isn't that better?

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Old 02-15-19, 07:52 AM
  #60  
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Recovery, microcycles, stimulus/adaptation, linear progression

To get stronger, you need to recover. There are many ways to help this process along, like nutrition and sleep quality, but let's talk about rest. Oh yeah, there's also recovery between intervals and other stuff too, but yeah to start with let's address the kind of recovery that happens between workouts and at the block level (for those who use blocks).

Let's start with between workouts. You perform a workout. And then don't. And then do. Etc.

The amount you do the don't part is important and is dependent on how you do the do part. Let's start out simple by talking about recovery days which I'll call them rest days because it's only one syllable and also less to type.

How much rest do you need? Did you get enough rest? These are the questions. Let's take them in reverse order. But they kinda go together too so it'll actually be back and forth a bit. Stick with me...

Ah shucks. Did I talk about the internal to external load ratio yet? I don't think so. Let's do that first. It's written "internal:external load ratio" which I shorten to I:E but what it is is the most important, accessible and intuitive assessment of fitness there is. That'll get the internet people riled up.

When your rides around you neighborhood become laps around your neighborhood, I:E is decreasing.

What your long ride becomes easier, I:E is decreasing.

That's it. That's all there is to it. Well, almost. That's all there is to it if you only want to understand things like the guys around here do. So what is external and internal load.

External load is the work you perform. Internal load is the impact of that work on your body. If you can perform more work with the same effort, you're improving. If you can perform the same work more easily, you're improving.

OK so now that we have that out of the way let's get back to recovery.

Say you complete your workout today and you have performed better, i.e. I:E (see what I did there?) has decreased from the prior workout. Good job! This means that you got two things, stimulus and recovery, at least somewhat right.

You see, what happens is workout ==> fatigue ==> recovery/adaptation. Inadequate or excess stimulus won't result in improvement. Inadequate or excess recovery won't either. Why? Because you either haven't given your body sufficient time to recovery or you've given your body too much time to recover and your fitness has reverted to previous levels.

Now, back to today's workout. In cycling, today's performance is about previous work done and recovery. Not about how you performed today because all you did today was turn the peddles. It's not like you threw 8 3-pointers in basketball or something. Get over yourself.

So, if today's performance is a reflection of the past then what can that tell us about today and even...gasp...tomorrow!

Several things.

The best case is the I:E improved because of increased external load but let's table that one because I haven't told you how to do that yet. So, sadly, we'll have to address the less awesome scenario of decreased internal load for the same external load, i.e. the session was easier than last time.

Let's start with why today's session was easier than last session. Anyone? Because we got stimulus and recovery at least reasonably right, remember? And why was that? Because today's performance was improved. OK good.

Now the (possibly) bad part.

If our stimulus was good last time and it was less (decreased internal load) this time, then we may not have achieved adequate stimulus today. Damn it!

All is not lost, though, because prior workout stimulus may have been slightly or even quite high but just not high enough to prevent some degree of improvement. And that could mean a number of things like we got even better stimulus today AND need less recovery between the next workout. Dope!

So there you have it. Insight into stimulus and recovery about yesterday, today and tomorrow and maybe even the next day. Sweet!
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Old 02-15-19, 07:57 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
because all you did today was turn the peddles.

Ohhhhh!!! I get it. You're talking about sales not cycling!!
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Old 02-15-19, 07:59 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Sounds to me like you're getting pressed stressed right now. I recommend breathing exercises. Breathe in and out. Just normal breathing. All you have to do is pay attention to the point at which breathing in becomes breathing out and vice versa. There now. Isn't that better?
That was way too harsh, I apologize. The problem is that none of those variables are managed, and to attempt it would be far beyond the scope of the training scheme of "my cardiac drift was over 10% I better slow down or cut out earlier today".
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Old 02-15-19, 08:04 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
No kidding!!

I'd like to see what he'd do with my life stress over the past year!!
Probably best not to encourage it. Between you and me, one of the main objectives of physical training in the first place is de-stressing and mental hygiene.
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Old 02-15-19, 08:06 AM
  #64  
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Log

Ouch. That hurt. Fortunately, I called it right and CD was right at 5%

Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Sat = Workout 1 of "endurance" block = 90 minutes with 10% drift and 129 bpm
Sun = Workout 2 of "endurance" block = 90 minutes with 5% drift and 133 bpm
Today = 90 minute "tempo" workout

Discussion:
.
  • Sat/Sun = Endurance block due because I couldn't fit in 90 minutes on either day
    • A side benefit of weekend endurance blocks is that they allow a pseudo 9-day microcycle which also aligns with calendar week
  • Sat metrics impacted by poor nutrition and much beer consumed Fri
  • Sun drift a bit lower than what I'd like to see so will increase power for next endurance block
  • No adjustments to power for today's session even though load indicators suggest drift may be low today ; If so, then will establish new baseline for this duration
.
Edit - I just noticed that drift only hit 10% once and that was with 50% less than normal recovery so I've decided to increase today's workout power, especially given load indicators

Edit #2 - Worth specifically pointing out that the 10% drift coinciding with a drop in HR, indicating suppression from fatigue.
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Old 02-15-19, 08:17 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Probably best not to encourage it. Between you and me, one of the main objectives of physical training in the first place is de-stressing and mental hygiene.
Of course. That's a large part of why I ran quite a bit over the past year. I found it was a good way to burn off the stress.
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Old 02-15-19, 08:45 AM
  #66  
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"External load is the work you perform. Internal load is the impact of that work on your body. If you can perform more work with the same effort, you're improving. "


These are valid concepts but wrong terminology, and it looks like the misconception is leading to some counter-productive generalizations. You want to think of "Load" as the impact of the work done, which is fine but it's "impact" for both internal and external (and not "work done" for external load vs "impact" for internal load)


Running economy for instance could be thought of as a function of internal and external work. It will involve all of metabolic efficiency in energy conversion, general physical coordination, and how much energy is wasted due to technique. Then you would define "Load" as the physiological impact of the two respective categories of work. You might think it's semantic but it really makes a huge difference and can lead to the opposite recommendations.


The immediate consideration is that adaptations to improve running economy (and the analogous elements in cycling) are different from those related to percent Vo2max for instance. And btw are going to contribute to cardiac drift. I'm not going to go into why and how the recommendations here are counterproductive in that respect, but before going further developing your schemes you really need to start with the more valid concepts of "load" and go from there.
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Old 02-15-19, 08:48 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
That was way too harsh, I apologize. The problem is that none of those variables are managed, and to attempt it would be far beyond the scope of the training scheme of "my cardiac drift was over 10% I better slow down or cut out earlier today".
  • Variation in power <== Fixed power
  • Variation in terrain N/A
  • Variation in cadence <== Rider-controlled
  • Variation in conditions <== Consistent conditions
  • Variation in hydration <== Consistent requirements under consistent conditions
  • Variation in nutrition <== Rider-controlled
  • Variation in caffeine intake <== Rider-controlled
  • Variation in sleep quality <== Rider-controlled or sign of fatigue
  • Alcohol consumption <== Alight you got me on this one
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Old 02-15-19, 08:55 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
"External load is the work you perform. Internal load is the impact of that work on your body. If you can perform more work with the same effort, you're improving. "


These are valid concepts but wrong terminology, and it looks like the misconception is leading to some counter-productive generalizations. You want to think of "Load" as the impact of the work done, which is fine but it's "impact" for both internal and external (and not "work done" for external load vs "impact" for internal load)


Running economy for instance could be thought of as a function of internal and external work. It will involve all of metabolic efficiency in energy conversion, general physical coordination, and how much energy is wasted due to technique. Then you would define "Load" as the physiological impact of the two respective categories of work. You might think it's semantic but it really makes a huge difference and can lead to the opposite recommendations.


The immediate consideration is that adaptations to improve running economy (and the analogous elements in cycling) are different from those related to percent Vo2max for instance. And btw are going to contribute to cardiac drift. I'm not going to go into why and how the recommendations here are counterproductive in that respect, but before going further developing your schemes you really need to start with the more valid concepts of "load" and go from there.
Nah, it's really is that simple. Got on the bike. Got on the bike again. Easier this time. Good.
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Old 02-15-19, 09:01 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Of course. That's a large part of why I ran quite a bit over the past year. I found it was a good way to burn off the stress.
And, since you're in about the same age range as I am, I'll bet that like I did you designed your volume and intensity around what your body could absorb rather than performance markers such as cardiac drift or time near threshold etc etc. We have to live in the range between the "comfort zone" too relaxed to produce gains, and performance goals that produce injuries or excessive recovery periods. Sometimes those lines are pretty close together, and "cardiac drift" is going to provide no meaningful insight on where the lines are. At best I'd use it as an indicator that I've neglected or overlooked something.
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Old 02-15-19, 09:04 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Nah, it's really is that simple. Got on the bike. Got on the bike again. Easier this time. Good.
Nope. High intensity intervals are not going to help my pedaling mechanics much. Threshold running isn't going to help my running economy. Get on and go works for the first six months or a year, but you're going to plateau quickly and look for more targeted training.
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Old 02-15-19, 09:08 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
  • Variation in power <== Fixed power
  • Variation in terrain N/A
  • Variation in cadence <== Rider-controlled
  • Variation in conditions <== Consistent conditions
  • Variation in hydration <== Consistent requirements under consistent conditions
  • Variation in nutrition <== Rider-controlled
  • Variation in caffeine intake <== Rider-controlled
  • Variation in sleep quality <== Rider-controlled or sign of fatigue
  • Alcohol consumption <== Alight you got me on this one
Sure if you ignore transient physiological conditions, chemistry, activities other than training, external influences, dietary fluctuations, external psychological pressures, other physical activities ... you know, "life".
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Old 02-15-19, 09:15 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
And, since you're in about the same age range as I am, I'll bet that like I did you designed your volume and intensity around what your body could absorb rather than performance markers such as cardiac drift or time near threshold etc etc. We have to live in the range between the "comfort zone" too relaxed to produce gains, and performance goals that produce injuries or excessive recovery periods. Sometimes those lines are pretty close together, and "cardiac drift" is going to provide no meaningful insight on where the lines are. At best I'd use it as an indicator that I've neglected or overlooked something.
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Nope. High intensity intervals are not going to help my pedaling mechanics much. Threshold running isn't going to help my running economy. Get on and go works for the first six months or a year, but you're going to plateau quickly and look for more targeted training.
I find it amusing that you keep bringing up things that you want to say and talk about as if I'm talking about them. No one is saying not to do anything. Work on mechanics all you want. What in the world that has to do with a single thing I've said I have no idea. Also, you may be excused from this thread whenever you want. Honestly, I'm sure the internet won't hold you singularly accountable for the complete destruction of cycling if you don't police this thread. I believe YouTube and Facebook are actively hiring for censorship positions as we speak. Jump over there. I'm sure you'll love it. They're doing all kinds of awesome things related to stopping misinformation over there. You'll have a ball.
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Old 02-15-19, 09:17 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
I find it amusing that you keep bringing up things that you want to say and talk about as if I'm talking about them. No one is saying not to do anything. Work on mechanics all you want. What in the world that has to do with a single thing I've said I have no idea...
Do you know HOW you work on mechanics, and if so do you see how that would be contradictory with your recommendations?

And how does that relate at all with what I responded to Macha? Was that quote just gratuitously added?
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Old 02-15-19, 09:19 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Sure if you ignore transient physiological conditions, chemistry, activities other than training, external influences, dietary fluctuations, external psychological pressures, other physical activities ... you know, "life".
Not much of of life if you ask me. You should get out more. I'm more into music, movies, sports, art...stuff like that.
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Old 02-15-19, 09:23 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Not much of of life if you ask me. You should get out more. I'm more into music, movies, sports, art...stuff like that.
Man, you're just getting random at this point. I'm out, proselytize away.
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