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(How To) Cardiac Drift - A Different Way of Looking at Indoor Training

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(How To) Cardiac Drift - A Different Way of Looking at Indoor Training

Old 02-16-19, 01:23 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
It's important to distinguish performance measures from prescriptive metrics.

Both I:E and cardiac drift do both.
No, they very obviously do not.
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Old 02-16-19, 03:15 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
What you are doing does not, and should not, have anything to do with FTP. FTP is meaningless. When you increase your power based on MSI, you deviate away from FTP and you should.
I have no idea what you're saying. How can one deviate away from FTP? It's simply a measure of sustainable power for roughly an hour.

My goals are to get back into racing this year. I know from past races my average and NP power for different types of races and I have a pretty good understanding of what I need to do to be competitive. I could never get there with your training program.

I have no idea who your audience is? Seasoned riders don't train like you do and new riders would soon quit if they stuck to the soul-crushing workouts you prescribe.
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Old 02-16-19, 07:09 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I have no idea who your audience is? Seasoned riders don't train like you do and new riders would soon quit if they stuck to the soul-crushing workouts you prescribe.

None of us know who his audience is ... I'm not even sure he does.


At this point, he thinks he's teaching a class!!


Personally, I'll be moving to indoor cycling in a couple months, and I'll be hopping on for 30-60 minutes of Zwift. Meanwhile I'm enjoying the great outdoors.
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Old 02-16-19, 07:36 PM
  #104  
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Meanwhile in a deep bunker far from weather, terrain or lousy road surfaces a Troglodyte whirs away with hamster-on-wheel like dedication on a faux-bicycle-like machine for no particular reason.
Welcome to the world of the Inthelete an indoor dwelling subspecies of non-cyclist much given to misguided elaborate Fatwas on "Training" that are sheer utter fantasy, and boring to boot with prognostications like "The average cyclist is an idiot. I'm not appealing to the masses". Actuality, not "appealing" to anyone.

Just find the "Ignore" function to get back above ground to actual bicycle training w/o further nonsense.
The season for starting power/endurance work on the open pubic roads in the hills is here now, get out and up and over just like every other year.
There is no substitute for putting the seat time in on the bike for endurance, power and speed while gaining operational competence in bike handing ,riding a tight pace-line, dealing with flats on the roadside and learning to dress for conditions beyond the basement environment.



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Last edited by Bandera; 02-16-19 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:30 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I have no idea what you're saying. How can one deviate away from FTP? It's simply a measure of sustainable power for roughly an hour.
When you increase your power because your workouts are no longer hard enough, you are no longer basing power on %FTP but MSI. As long was you are performing your intervals at MSI, who cares what your FTP is? %FTP is garbage, especially above LT. You might need 105% FTP while I might need 120% FTP. But MSI is right for both of us. I see it all the time. People perform a poor test poorly and then wonder why their workouts are too easy or they can't complete them. It's because FTP is meaningless. MSI guarantees the right stimulus. But SW can't tell you what RPE is so people can't make money off it and people can't brag about getting good stimulus; just about what their FTP is or watts/kg. It's stupid.

Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
My goals are to get back into racing this year. I know from past races my average and NP power for different types of races and I have a pretty good understanding of what I need to do to be competitive. I could never get there with your training program.
This is incoherent.

Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I have no idea who your audience is? Seasoned riders don't train like you do and new riders would soon quit if they stuck to the soul-crushing workouts you prescribe.
The average cyclist is an idiot. I'm not appealing to the masses.

Edit - I apologize for the above. I should not have singled-out cyclists and, regardless, this is cynical, unnecessary and not constructive.

Last edited by fstrnu; 02-16-19 at 09:45 PM. Reason: removing insults
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Old 02-16-19, 08:37 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
It's stupid.



This is incoherent.



The average cyclist is an idiot..
Ah, yes, the crux of his endless diatribes.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:38 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Meanwhile in a deep bunker far from weather, terrain or lousy road surfaces a Troglodyte whirs away with hamster-on-wheel like dedication on a faux-bicycle-like machine for no particular reason.
Welcome to the world of the Inthelete an indoor dwelling subspecies of non-cyclist much given to misguided elaborate Fatwas on "Training" that are sheer utter fantasy, and boring to boot with prognostications like "The average cyclist is an idiot. I'm not appealing to the masses". Actuality, not "appealing" to anyone.

Just find the "Ignore" function to get back above ground to actual bicycle training w/o further nonsense.
The season for starting power/endurance work on the open pubic roads in the hills is here now, get out and up and over just like every other year.
There is no substitute for putting the seat time in on the bike for endurance, power and speed while gaining operational competence in bike handing ,riding a tight pace-line, dealing with flats on the roadside and learning to dress for conditions beyond the basement environment.
-Bandera
Troglodyte...inthelete...Fatwas...hmmmm

Maestro, where are you and what are you drinking/smoking. I will be on the next plane to join you.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:42 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Despite producing 95 percent of the world’s bourbon supply, the official drink of Kentucky is milk.
Best post of this thread, by a significant margin. It provides information.

Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
I'm not appealing to the masses.
Most accurate post of this thread.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:45 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
When you increase your power because your workouts are no longer hard enough, you are no longer basing power on %FTP but MSI. As long was you are performing your intervals at MSI, who cares what your FTP is? %FTP is garbage, especially above LT. You might need 105% FTP while I might need 120% FTP. But MSI is right for both of us. I see it all the time. People perform a poor test poorly and then wonder why their workouts are too easy or they can't complete them. It's because FTP is meaningless. MSI guarantees the right stimulus. But SW can't tell you what RPE is so people can't make money off it and people can't brag about getting good stimulus; just about what their FTP is or watts/kg. It's stupid.



This is incoherent.



The average cyclist is an idiot. I'm not appealing to the masses.
Okay so are you here to be superior? Is that your point with these comments?
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Originally Posted by making View Post
Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:45 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
When you increase your power because your workouts are no longer hard enough, you are no longer basing power on %FTP but MSI.
You seem to be under the impression that FTP is fixed. The goal of my training is to increase FTP not maintain it. If my target power is increasing that is an indication FTP is going up. I don't need to test my FTP every week to know it's going up. The intervals are always done at approx the same % of FTP.

Using RPE to set intensity for intervals is more effective than cardiac drift. RPE works for intervals of all durations. How do you measure cardiac drift on a 1 or 5 min interval?
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Old 02-16-19, 08:47 PM
  #111  
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Why cardiac drift is intuitively the ideal metric

Analysts are always skeptical of averages. Aside from what we know about the "phenomenon" that is cardiac drift, it is also valuable purely as a descriptor of HR distribution. Without knowing anything at all about the physiology around cardiac drift, I would be immediately open to its power to describe what is going on beyond average HR. Two workouts. Same HR. Different HR profile. Why? How cardiac drift is measured is exactly how an analyst would initially look at (which, incidentally, I must admit makes some of the alleged "genious" around all these twenty-year-old concepts hiliarous; but I digress...). You see, the simplest way to understand how HR is behaving beyond overall average is to divide a ride in two and compare the first half to the second half. This is precisely the first thing I would have done had someone else not already done it.

So, why is my heart rate lower in the beginning and higher at the end than before? Well, I've answered that question about 100 times. My point is this is solid analysis and basic stuff and to ignore it is simply stupid.

To all those saying there are too many variables to understand anything about training, shame on you. You are either greedy or desperately need to see a therapist. Reconcile with your parents already.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:48 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Troglodyte...inthelete...Fatwas...hmmmm

Maestro, where are you and what are you drinking/smoking. I will be on the next plane to join you.
He's drinking Kool-Aid.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:50 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Siu Blue Wind View Post
Okay so are you here to be superior? Is that your point with these comments?
The average cyclist is no dumber than the average voter. Think about it.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:52 PM
  #114  
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Cardiac drift is virtually meaningless for people who ride bicycles outdoors, on actual roads, covering actual distance. It certainly can't tell me anything CTL doesn't already.

Also, I see no real difference between your self-coined MSI and FTP. They're different acronyms for the same thing. MSI also refers to Mindless Self Indulgence, which is an utterly perfect name for this thread.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:52 PM
  #115  
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Ok, this thread is hitting bottom. Insults are coming out including insulting the average cyclist. Anything else to add in the way of constructive comments?
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Old 02-16-19, 08:55 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
It's stupid.



This is incoherent.



The average cyclist is an idiot. I'm not appealing to the masses.
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
My point is this is solid analysis and basic stuff and to ignore it is simply stupid.

To all those saying there are too many variables to understand anything about training, shame on you. You are either greedy or desperately need to see a therapist. Reconcile with your parents already.
Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
The average cyclist is no dumber than the average voter. Think about it.
Nice.

Really nice.

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Old 02-16-19, 08:56 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
The average cyclist is no dumber than the average voter. Think about it.
I'm asking what your intention is here.
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Originally Posted by making View Post
Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
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Old 02-16-19, 09:37 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
You seem to be under the impression that FTP is fixed. The goal of my training is to increase FTP not maintain it. If my target power is increasing that is an indication FTP is going up. I don't need to test my FTP every week to know it's going up. The intervals are always done at approx the same % of FTP.

Using RPE to set intensity for intervals is more effective than cardiac drift. RPE works for intervals of all durations. How do you measure cardiac drift on a 1 or 5 min interval?
If you are adjusting your training based on MSI you don't need FTP. It's like we are in violent agreement but you can't let go of FTP. Do MSI. Do it! It's good. I like it. I like that you are doing it. Forget FTP. Just stop it. Stop. Let it go. You don't need it. No one needs it. Just allow your interval structure to determine intensity based on MSI. You got this! You can do it! I believe in you.

Regarding using RPE to set intensity for intervals, man, I can't agree with you enough. Keep it up, bro! You're doing great. I can't think of any more ways to say it.

What cardiac drift does is cover all the bases. First, let's agree as I know everyone does that cardiac drift is the ultimate single metric in every way without exception for developing aerobic endurance.

Ok, now that we have that out of the way let's go extreme. First, as I said before, you are getting ahead of the class. I'm starting out with base training because that is where most people are now and also the best place to start with my protocol because it's simply a slam dunk and everyone knows it.

Now, as a preview/teaser only of what is forthcoming about latter training phases and cardiac drift (spoiler alert: cardiac drift is still king and in every way I describe so far, it's just that you can take it even further with a few tweeks and faith and knowledge and tracking/longitudinal analysis and such):

The first thing is that, directionally, a change from workout to workout or longitudinally in cardiac drift (or any change from a repeated experiment) must be explained. Power variation doesn't explain it. Changing conditions doesn't explain. And so on. What explains it? A change in status explains it. Status = the state of fitness, fatigue and endurance. Why? Both from a direct physiological basis as well as a pure analytical one. Other things being equal, a difference in cardiac drift means something.

Another purely analytical and scientific explanation is that increasing cardiac drift is 100% reproducible. Do three hard rides in a row and drift with go up. Why? Even if we didn't know it was fatigue we'd know it was because of what we did and also we'd end up getting sick or injured. So what do you do? DECREASE FREQUENCY. How much? Decrease it until you're no longer increasing drift. Decrease it too much and you won't hit the top of the adaptation curve.

But training is so complex yada yada. B.S. Longitudinally, all of this comes out in the wash and you'll figure it out. Just pay attention.

Now, let's assume we know nothing or agree on nothing but that fatigue is all we can see. THAT'S INCREDIBLY POWERFUL. Manipulate intensity and duration however you want to meet your goals and watch drift just for fatigue. Perfect. You still win because getting tolerable load and the balance between ramp rate and rest week frequency is frigg'n sick as heck. How many people do you think can do that? Answer = Everyone, provided they pay attention but almost nobody does. They just follow generic plans or silly mathematical models like ACWR while those who espouse it know it's B.S. but they're trapped in it because they've built entire economies around it and they're stuck.

The real beauty about all this is that you don't have to worry about any of it. Just live your life and train like I say and you'll be good. Stop trying to control everything. At least try it and then draw a conclusion.

Now, for very short intervals and, to be honest I watch a LOT more than just drift, albeit mostly into latter phases (by the way why in the world are people doing intervals in base?) ; actually let's talk about why people are doing intervals in base:

I hope people are doing intervals in base because they simply don't have time for volume and not because they think they can save time by doing more intensity. Let's be honest, though, we all know there are thousand of greedy people cutting corners thinking intensity can be substituted for volume and that's their problem to deal with. I hope I'm being clear about the difference. Some people TRULY don't have any more time while other people think they can play more videogames by cutting corners. I hope these people are racing criteriums.

I forgot your question LOL (I'm drinking pretty heavily at the moment ; my dad bought me some killer bourbon for Xmas that I totally forgot about and just found while cleaning out my kitchen).

Ok, so let's talk about 5 minutes intervals. First, have you looked at patterns in cardiac drift? Do that, please. Also, if you are not interested in ERG mode that's fine. It's OK. You don't have to do it. No one has to do it. But that doesn't change its benefits if you do it. Obviously no one will get benefits if they are not willing to do it or it's excruciating or whatever but that doesn't mean that they can't do it ; just that they won't.

For the record, I am hugely excited every time I get on the bike and even more so curious about what my numbers are going to be. I love what I do and everything about it. It's my personality and I'm lucky that way. So are others, but not if they never try it because people bellyache all the time about how inhumane it is when it's not.

Back to 5 minute intervals. I need more bourbon stand by...ok I'm back (why did I hide it so far toward the back of the pantry on the bottom? I need to do more yoga)...anyway, 5 minutes is an eternity. That's my answer. Hang on. Let me grab some 4x4 data and come back...Ok nevermind i nailed my 4x4 workouts every time right at 7% drift. Anyway, look at your data and let me know what you see.

One minute intervals and cardiac drift? I'd go with MSI there. Theoretically, difference in even just 60 second sets must be explained. Sure there's lag. Sure your HR won't even get there. Possibly reverse drift is the answer? The faster your HR responds the better? I'm honestly not sure. But MSI will do you and MSI will play a huge role in upcoming posts. Cardiac drift ==> MSI is simply impossible to beat. Have you seen my posts about 4x4 and 4x8 MSI where I discuss how these are multi-use workouts because they indicate VO2 max and all that jazz?

I should probably get something to eat.
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Old 02-16-19, 09:42 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
Ok, this thread is hitting bottom. Insults are coming out including insulting the average cyclist. Anything else to add in the way of constructive comments?
Sorry. I will edit that and try to keep on topic and constructive.
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Old 02-16-19, 09:47 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Siu Blue Wind View Post
I'm asking what your intention is here.
I'm sorry. That was in poor taste, incorrect and cynical. I have edited it and apologized. I'm sorry.
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Old 02-16-19, 09:53 PM
  #121  
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To everyone, the administrators are correct. This thread is sinking fast and I'm a big part of that. As I said in the OP, this thread is about how to implement my protocol, not to defend it. To that end, I will respond only to constructive, genuine questions. You don't have to read this thread. You don't have to police this thread. I don't have to convince you. You need only try it and see the magic or don't. You're call.
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Old 02-16-19, 10:01 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post

The average cyclist is an idiot. I'm not appealing to the masses.

Edit - I apologize for the above. I should not have singled-out cyclists and, regardless, this is cynical, unnecessary and not constructive.

You do realise that this is a cycling forum, right? That's what we do here. We are "the average cyclist".

And if you're not singling out cyclists with that comment, then what?

The average ____ is an idiot. Who exactly? "Person"?


You're not winning any followers with that kind of attitude ... or, in fact, with the idea that you know better than, as you say, "some of the alleged "genious" around all these twenty-year-old concepts hiliarous".




Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
I'm drinking pretty heavily at the moment ; my dad bought me some killer bourbon for Xmas that I totally forgot about and just found while cleaning out my kitchen.
Ah. The explanation emerges.
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Old 02-16-19, 10:12 PM
  #123  
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A suggestion ... why not put all your ideas into a blog, streamline it so it is easy to read and follow, and then present that?

Or maybe write a book!

That way you can implement your protocol, and not defend it
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Old 02-16-19, 10:12 PM
  #124  
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To keep this thread on track and constructive, I'd like to clarify something about cardiac drift vs MSI.

Cardiac drift is a no-brainer for base but there are nuances that get introduced in latter stages.

In the interest of avoiding a fire hose, I'd like to use progressive disclosure to ease athletes into some topics as they need it and this is much easier to do when starting from the beginning of a season with base, which is much more cut and dry.

Once all the material is complete, athletes in any phase of training will be able to jump in at any point of the material, although they will still benefit greatly from consuming the material starting from base as concepts will build on one another and the deeper we get into a season the more a foundation is going to be critical because hypotheses will need to be formulated, tested and results understood, etc.

Don't let this intimidate you, but no model will answer all questions. What we want to do is ask more questions and analyze trends and basically do more, but with fewer summary variables that are valid because of so much coming out in the wash and also because of control variables being in check.

Ok so for the clarification, a shift to (actually introduction of might be more accurate) MSI from cardiac drift will be in order. But drift will always be central because fatigue travels/accumulates. It's difficult to explain without going thru the progressive disclosure but a crude example for illustrative purposes only would be that you could perform a workout consisting of very short intervals based on MSI but the impact of cumulative fatigue from that and all workouts will still be manifesting in your endurance maintenance / aerobic threshold sessions.

For example, Joe Friel recommends aerobic threshold sessions be conducted when you are fresh because, for example, he knows fatigue can skew numbers due to HR suppression. By the same token, if you DON'T mitigate fatigue (i.e. make sure you are fresh), then aerobic threshold endurance maintenance workouts can be used for cumulative fatigue monitoring, i.e. of fatigue generated from a previous, or even multiple, sessions consisting of very short intervals, etc.
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Old 02-16-19, 10:15 PM
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