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Lack of endurance energy on low carb plan...

Old 09-17-19, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Clem von Jones View Post
Protein converts rapidly to carbs so go easy on it. Your body burns two different fuels: carbs (glucose) and ketones (fat). Carbs are converted to fat by the liver and stored in the body, but after you quit eating carbs you body eventually starts burning body fat as ketones. It takes it the better part of a day or more before the body starts burning fat ketones, but you'll derail that process if you eat any carbs. Even a sweetener mixed with electrolytes for example will cause the body to enter fat-storage mode again until blood glucose is depleted, then it burns ketones again. Some people haven't burned ketones for months or even years because they snack on carbs all day, but the human body is designed to burn primarily ketones.

That's what I learned recently and the information was a shocker to me.
Perhaps it was so shocking because it is wrong? Your body is constantly burning fat. You don't need to wait until blood glucose is depleted before fat burning starts. There is no "fat-storage" mode where your body can't burn fat. Fat burning can (and does) occur without ketones.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...?noredirect=on
Your body primarily fuels itself by burning a mix of stored fat and carbohydrates. The less active you are at a given moment, the greater the percentage of that fuel mix comes from fat. As your intensity of activity increases, the percentage of carbohydrates in that fuel mix also increases. At rest, fat constitutes as much as 85 percent of calories burned. That figure shifts to about 70 percent at an easy walking pace. If you transition to a moderate-effort run, the mix becomes about 50 percent fat and 50 percent carbohydrates, and it moves increasingly toward carbohydrates the faster you go.
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Old 09-17-19, 01:27 PM
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My understanding is the conventional carbo-burning exercise regime is hazardous for people with elevated A1C blood levels. I'm not discussing thin-as-a-rail professional cyclists here. This is about type II diabetes where you want to deliberately reduce blood glucose and stores of glycogen to ramp up ketone production.

Last edited by Clem von Jones; 09-17-19 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 09-19-19, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Clem von Jones View Post
My understanding is the conventional carbo-burning exercise regime is hazardous for people with elevated A1C blood levels. I'm not discussing thin-as-a-rail professional cyclists here. This is about type II diabetes where you want to deliberately reduce blood glucose and stores of glycogen to ramp up ketone production.
Please link to a study (not an opinion) showing that consumption of carbs by endurance athletes has negative health effects. As you perhaps intimate, pro cyclists and ultrarunners have somewhat elevated A1c levels, which have not been shown to have any negative health effects.

All the studies I've seen show that exercise, either aerobic or resistance, reduces A1c levels in type II diabetics. Of course exercise burns both carbs and fats. Far from being dangerous, exercise is good for you. Burning carbs is good for you. Overeating is bad for you. It's not complicated.

For those interested in carbs/ketosis w/r to endurance activities, this is a good read: https://trainright.com/should-endura...ance-athletes/
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Old 09-19-19, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Clem von Jones View Post
Protein converts rapidly to carbs so go easy on it. Your body burns two different fuels: carbs (glucose) and ketones (fat). Carbs are converted to fat by the liver and stored in the body, but after you quit eating carbs you body eventually starts burning body fat as ketones. It takes it the better part of a day or more before the body starts burning fat ketones, but you'll derail that process if you eat any carbs. Even a sweetener mixed with electrolytes for example will cause the body to enter fat-storage mode again until blood glucose is depleted, then it burns ketones again. Some people haven't burned ketones for months or even years because they snack on carbs all day, but the human body is designed to burn primarily ketones.

That's what I learned recently and the information was a shocker to me. I'd never been taught this and developed pre-diabeties from eating carbs. The human body isn't adapted by evolution to eating carbs for prolonged periods. Ancient peoples could eat a few vegetables, tree nuts, and wild berries during the summer and this was all the carbs they had in their diet, and those summer carbs fattened them up to help survive winter. The very first people who raised and ate grain-crops in Mesopotamia and Egypt were all sick from their diet. They've studied ancient mummies and discovered all those people had diabetes and diabetes-related diseases like arteriosclerosis and heart disease.

By contrast people like the Maasi and Inuit who eat almost no carbs don't have these diseases. Inuit (once) ate whale blubber but had no arteriosclerosis from it. These people eat all kinds of animal fat but had almost no fat on their bodies because they're ketone-adapted. They get all their energy from ketones.

Ranchers fatten up their cattle for slaughter by feeding them grain, soybeans, and corn. They intentionally induce diabetes in their livestock.

Watch this lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RprGtr_cHlY
That completely ignores the first step of carb conversion to glycogen which is most relevant to endurance athletes.
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Old 09-19-19, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Clem von Jones View Post
My understanding is the conventional carbo-burning exercise regime is hazardous for people with elevated A1C blood levels. I'm not discussing thin-as-a-rail professional cyclists here. This is about type II diabetes where you want to deliberately reduce blood glucose and stores of glycogen to ramp up ketone production.
It's not like you're either underweight or diabetic.
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Old 09-19-19, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by zjrog View Post
As a requirement of my post surgical diet, I still avoid most carbs. That places me in a bit of a pickle on 20 mile plus rides.

My question is more for KetoAtkins style no carb diets. What do you guys do for extra energy on rides?
First things first - congrats on the weight loss.

I reduced carbs (around 100g/day) and calories, changed behaviors, and increased exercise to go from 325 to 165. Once I hit my goal weight, I adopted a strategy of increasing carb consumption right before and immediately after a ride (varies with the intensity of the ride), and maintaining a low carb diet the rest of the day. That's worked since 2013, allows me to race with some modest success, and keep my weight within 5 lbs of my goal weight.

Crux of the matter was to make small adjustments, give my body time to adjust, and figure out what worked for my metabolism and needs.

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Old 09-19-19, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
First things first - congrats on the weight loss.

I reduced carbs (around 100g/day) and calories, changed behaviors, and increased exercise to go from 325 to 165. Once I hit my goal weight, I adopted a strategy of increasing carb consumption right before and immediately after a ride (varies with the intensity of the ride), and maintaining a low carb diet the rest of the day. That's worked since 2013, allows me to race with some modest success, and keep my weight within 5 lbs of my goal weight.

Crux of the matter was to make small adjustments, give my body time to adjust, and figure out what worked for my metabolism and needs.

BB
This is sort of what I'm looking for. Real experience. I'm still making changes as I go forward. I just want to avoid bonking without gaining weight. I've still got some MENTAL work ahead as I'm stuck on numbers associated with weight. Not the healthy side alone. In other words, I still think like a FAT guy. Exercise has increased as I've lost weight. But I'm unable to avoid the major stressors in life, and these are where I need more work. Otherwise, I revert to my old way of thinking and EAT...
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Old 09-19-19, 02:17 PM
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My doctor gives me Ativan for major life stresses. It's a break-glass-in-case-of-emergency thing. But they're very effective, 20 minutes after I take one I don't care about anything.
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Old 09-19-19, 02:54 PM
  #34  
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this is a bit deep dive, but some good discussion on food and exercise and human nature in general

In This Episode We Discuss

  • Adaptive thermogenesis – interplay between EI and EE
  • Compensation to energy imbalance appears asymmetrical
  • Metabolic adaptations that occur with hypocaloric dieting vs. deficit induced via increased exercise
  • Post-exercise compensatory eating
  • People have different weight loss responses to exercise interventions, not explained by adherence
  • Does change in LBM influence hunger/appetite?
  • Sedentary behaviour (physical inactivity): regulated zone vs. unregulated zone
https://sigmanutrition.com/episode299/
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Old 09-19-19, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by zjrog View Post
t I'm unable to avoid the major stressors in life, and these are where I need more work. Otherwise, I revert to my old way of thinking and EAT...
If this was easy, everyone would be thin and fast! Sounds like you know what the problem is and you know there is no shortcut to fixing it. Stay focused and know the longer you stick with it, the more natural it seems to eat and ride healthy.

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Old 09-19-19, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
If this was easy, everyone would be thin and fast! Sounds like you know what the problem is and you know there is no shortcut to fixing it. Stay focused and know the longer you stick with it, the more natural it seems to eat and ride healthy.

BB
If this was easy, you are correct. You are also correct that I am well aware of the problems, there is no shortcut. Focus is a renewed skill I had lost in the morass of being fat and somewhat depressed. Getting the crap scared out of me last year by my cardiologist changed all that...
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Old 09-21-19, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by berner View Post
I would be skeptical of cutting carbs too much. I would look closely at the sugar content of packaged foods as there is a surprisingly high amount of added sugar to many foods, often upwards of 15% or 20%. Sugar provides few if any nutrients. Fruit, on the other hand, contains sugar but also nutrients and fiber so it is slower to digest and is a good mid-ride snack.
I'm with this guy. The reason why natural sugar vs refined is better for you is because natural sugar comes with fiber. Juice the fiber out of fruits and veggies and you may as well be eating a spoonful of sugar. I literally stuff myself at breakfast with fiber and carbs. Given that you have a sleeve and can't do that, then I suggest you make you own energy bars vs buying. Make flour from quick cook oatmeal and a coffee grinder. I also grind quinoa into flour and do a 75/25 (oatmeal/quinoa) mix. Add nuts flax, almond, walnut, sunflower, etc.. to your preference. Then adjust the amount of sugar to make it just sweet enough to make tasty and give you carbs. Add butter to hold the mix together and bake. Once cool you can cut into bars and plastic wrap individually. Carry these and eat when convenient and needed for energy.

Try to eat oatmeal for breakfast and add pineapple, papaya, banana, etc... These fruits have digestive enzymes important for gut health. Experiment with your oatmeal recipe. You can add chopped veggies like beet and carrot. Oatmeal gruel can hide a lot of flavors that might not be your favorite. Fiber inhibits the ability of the body to absorb sugar. So the sugar gets absorbed more slowly, giving your body the opportunity to use it for energy instead of being converted into fat. Work with that principle to increase the amount of carbs consumed and used for energy vs fat.
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Old 09-21-19, 05:14 PM
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Because or maybe not because I eat smallish meal portions, I need to snack mid-morning and afternoon. I've started eating an apple for those snacks and wow, I'm impressed at how well that works! Low cal, high fiber, and satisfying for longer than I would have thought. My wife just bought me a whole box of new harvest apples: that's two a day, every day.
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Old 10-10-19, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by zjrog View Post
My question is more for KetoAtkins style no carb diets. What do you guys do for extra energy on rides?
I am somewhat similar to you. A few years back I was 270 lbs. I was diagnosed with diabetes, which scared the crap out of me and forced me to make changes. Sugar & carbs were removed from my diet. I didn't prescribe to any special diet that I was aware of, I just cut out anything that would cause blood sugar to spike. Vegetables became a large portion of my food intake. I have since dropped 80 lbs and my blood sugar has returned to normal with the assistance of some oral medication. When people ask, I just tell them that I began to eat like a responsible 45 year old man instead of a 16 year old kid. I also tell them that I eat like a diabetic to avoid becoming a diabetic.

Now on to your question. Last summer I began to cycle with my 10 year old son. I decided I liked it and began to do it more and more often. Then I realized that, the more I cycled, the more I could reward myself with food that I typically do not eat. This Spring I really began to take off with at least one weekly ride of 30+ miles plus other shorter (about 20 miles) rides. On the 30+ miles rides, I reward myself after the first climb with a cliff bar or protein bar. Sometimes on the longer rides, I will eat half on the first break and eat the rest on a subsequent break. I am not really sure if this helps with my energy levels or not.
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Old 10-17-19, 09:17 AM
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Someone mentioned electrolytes. I had a similar issue when I was training for a half after I went super low-carb. What helped tremendously was SALT. If I gagged down some salt water prior to a run I did far better than when I didn't. (Not TOO much -- can have a laxative affect when taken that way...). I would also take olives rather than sports gels. Lot easier to deal with those on the bike now that on a run...
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Old 10-21-19, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by here hold my ha View Post
Someone mentioned electrolytes. I had a similar issue when I was training for a half after I went super low-carb. What helped tremendously was SALT. If I gagged down some salt water prior to a run I did far better than when I didn't. (Not TOO much -- can have a laxative affect when taken that way...). I would also take olives rather than sports gels. Lot easier to deal with those on the bike now that on a run...
I definetely watch my hydration and electrolytes. But also off the bike. I work in the desert, so hydration and electrolytes are life...
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Old 11-07-19, 10:00 PM
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How’s your training and most importantly fun coming along?
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Old 11-08-19, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Tulok View Post
How’s your training and most importantly fun coming along?
Slow actually. Fighting a few issues that make trouble for me on the bike. That and the weather has turned. I found during 20 mile rides I am not in bad shape after, but after 30, I feel it. I tried cutting my protein bars in chunks and eating a bite here and there helped. But they are lower carb bars than power bar or Clif's.

I'm shifting focus as it cools to indoors and my trainer. I bought a used Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer and added their iNride sensor. It figures out a power output useful for Zwift and Rouvy. So I can have metrics for power, speed, cadence and heart rate. Add in BP pre and post ride. I'm also planning on riding some trails on my 29er when it's decent out. And wife has floated a thought of a fat bike for XMas...

I've dropped another 5 pounds, and feel great. My nagging issues of a failing right knee, still injured left ankle and a sore on my index toe of the left foot. The toe is of great concern presently. My podiatrist has been treating it, but it's time tomorrow to see a different doc. Oddly, that toe grew more than a 1/4" recently. Longer than my big toe now. And no explanation for it.
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Old 11-08-19, 03:38 AM
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Keto and aerobic training don't mix, and that's not going to change. Choose one. Also, weight alone doesn't' mean much. Always, use a ratio of weight to height.

That said, congratulation on your monumental weigh loss.
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Old 11-10-19, 11:42 PM
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Question to all the keto experts. If your body is "fat adapted" (whatever that means), then why is it so easy to knock the body out of its "fat-adapted" state in the presence of a minuscule amount of carbs? Same with the brain. In the presence of glucose and ketones, the brain always goes for the glucose first.
In evolution, this is not what an "adaptation" is supposed to work. Eg, if fish are adapted to water, then they MUST have water to live. If humans are adapted to air, then we MUST have air to live. But apparently in the ketosis world, a body that is "fat adapted" still prefers glucose as a fuel source, and the only way to force this "adaptation" (if one could even call it that) is to deprive it of glucose.

Any evolutionary biologist wanna explain what this fat-adaptation is all about?
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Old 11-11-19, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Question to all the keto experts. If your body is "fat adapted" (whatever that means), then why is it so easy to knock the body out of its "fat-adapted" state in the presence of a minuscule amount of carbs? Same with the brain. In the presence of glucose and ketones, the brain always goes for the glucose first.
In evolution, this is not what an "adaptation" is supposed to work. Eg, if fish are adapted to water, then they MUST have water to live. If humans are adapted to air, then we MUST have air to live. But apparently in the ketosis world, a body that is "fat adapted" still prefers glucose as a fuel source, and the only way to force this "adaptation" (if one could even call it that) is to deprive it of glucose.

Any evolutionary biologist wanna explain what this fat-adaptation is all about?
"the shortest distance between two points is a straight line."

Simple: The body will (just like most of nature) always take the easiest route to get to its destination. The "adaptation" means the body is capable of metabolizing fats for fuel in the absence of other macronutrients. Don't get so caught up in the language, i.e. take it too literally, that you forget this.

Just because your body is capable of running on fats, doesn't mean it going to ignore a simpler molecule like carbohydrates to get its energy.
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Old 11-11-19, 12:50 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
"the shortest distance between two points is a straight line."

Simple: The body will (just like most of nature) always take the easiest route to get to its destination. The "adaptation" means the body is capable of metabolizing fats for fuel in the absence of other macronutrients. Don't get so caught up in the language, i.e. take it too literally, that you forget this.

Just because your body is capable of running on fats, doesn't mean it going to ignore a simpler molecule like carbohydrates to get its energy.
So in other words, there is no such thing as fat-adaptation. And btw, a person who is not in ketosis is also very well capable of metabolizing fats as a fuel. In fact, endurance athletes who are highcarbers get the majority of their energy by metabolizing fats.
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Old 11-11-19, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
So in other words, there is no such thing as fat-adaptation. And btw, a person who is not in ketosis is also very well capable of metabolizing fats as a fuel. In fact, endurance athletes who are highcarbers get the majority of their energy by metabolizing fats.
Not exactly. We're all already fat adapted -- literally speaking. It just works more efficiently when other macronutrients are not present.
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Old 11-11-19, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Not exactly. We're all already fat adapted -- literally speaking. It just works more efficiently when other macronutrients are not present.
is there any peer reviewed study to back up this "more efficiently" claim? The one study I read stated that people on keto have no better fat metabolism than non-keto. In fact, highcarb endurance athletes are more efficient at metabolizing lipids (intramyocellular lipids) than anyone including people in ketosis, and these athletes have all 3 major macronutrients (carbs, lipids, protein) in their system. The claim from the keto world is that ketosis gives you this endless tap into an unlimited fuel source (your body fat storage), but we have yet to see anyone athlete competing at the highest level of any endurance events (cycling, running, rowing, xc skiing) dominating. What does this say.

This brings me back to my original question. If the body is supposed so efficient at metabolizing fat (after it's been "fat adapted"), then why would it abandon its fat-adaptation when given glucose? When something is "adapted", it usually means it takes a lot of effort to make that something abandon its adaptation. That is how evolution usually works. But in the case of keto adapted, all it takes is a couple of spoons of sugar and adaption is gone. It's too much work to get into ketosis, going thru keto flu (it's actually the body saying it's not happy), then buying all these ketone strips to measure your ketone levels, read this and read that to get your diet perfectly right so your body can actually go into ketosis, then you'd still have to monitor your ketone levels (because otherwise you cannot tell by feel if the body is in ketosis, can you), and drink bullet coffee like crazy because people on keto can't get going without coffee stimulant, and make sure you take your salts and vitamin tabs... all that... only to have ketosis knocked out of you in a matter of minutes by a couple of bananas. Doesn't sound like something nature would design

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Old 11-11-19, 01:19 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
is there any peer reviewed study to back up this "more efficiently" claim? The one study I read stated that people on keto have no better fat metabolism than non-keto. In fact, highcarb endurance athletes are more efficient at metabolizing lipids (intramyocellular lipids) than anyone including people in ketosis, and these athletes have all 3 major macronutrients (carbs, lipids, protein) in their system. The claim from the keto world is that ketosis gives you this endless tap into an unlimited fuel source (your body fat storage), but we have yet to see anyone athlete competing at the highest level of any endurance events (cycling, running, rowing, xc skiing) dominating. What does this say.

This brings me back to my original question. If the body is supposed so efficient at metabolizing fat (after it's been "fat adapted"), then why would it abandon its fat-adaptation when given glucose? When something is "adapted", it usually means it takes a lot of effort to make that something abandon its adaptation. That is how evolution usually works. But in the case of keto adapted, all it takes is a couple of spoons of sugar and adaption is gone. It's too much work to get into ketosis, going thru keto flu (it's actually the body saying it's not happy), then buying all these ketone strips to measure your ketone levels, read this and read that to get your diet perfectly right so your body can actually go into ketosis, then you'd still have to monitor your ketone levels (because otherwise you cannot tell by feel if the body is in ketosis, can you), and drink bullet coffee like crazy because people on keto can't get going without coffee stimulant, and make sure you take your salts and vitamin tabs... all that... only to have ketosis knocked out of you in a matter of minutes by a couple of bananas. Doesn't sound like something nature would design
Actually it is an adaptation coded in our DNA. It happened during the "starving time" as a way to keep the DNA moving down the chain, the key being that our brains can run on ketones if food is not available for a long period. Otherwise we'd die. That it's so universal in us gives an a good perspective on our past, notice that we have it really easy right now, and a good taste of fear for our future. But as you say, it's nothing that we would choose in normal times. DNA never makes a mistake. Even its seeming failures are successes. Diversity is good.
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