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Rode twice the distance today, more hills and I feel the same

Old 07-30-20, 05:32 AM
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Rode twice the distance today, more hills and I feel the same

Been doing hard 30 minutes per day for the last 7 weeks since I started cycling. I've not been doing any recovery. I've been progressively increasing the distance of my route as my speed increases.

Done entirely in the city in relatively heavy traffic, annoying with lots of hard braking but managing to maintain >20 mph for several minutes before meeting the red light or coming across slow-moving traffic. It may not seem much expect for the fact, I deliberately increase my aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance through the bike (installed full fenders with large mudflaps for example), big non-cycling helmet, and clothing that balloons in the wind. Plus, the bike is 37 lbs

Today, I did twice the distance in a different route with much longer hills too and I was out for over an hour instead of my typical 35 minute ride. First time I ever went up a long hill where I had to pace myself, keep in mind the bike is 37 lbs. Maintaining 20 mph for longer times too with less interruptions due to the new route with less traffic stops. My average speed increased too but possibly due to the less traffic interruptions.

It surprises me that I felt the same after the ride despite the long hills. No pain nor numbness anywhere. Muscles are only a bit sore as it did yesterday. I feel like I could make another loop of the same route as still don't feel tired.

So what are we seeing here??? Short distance training is just as good long distance training as long as you train very hard??
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Old 07-30-20, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
Been doing hard 30 minutes per day for the last 7 weeks since I started cycling. I've not been doing any recovery. I've been progressively increasing the distance of my route as my speed increases.


It surprises me that I felt the same after the ride despite the long hills. No pain nor numbness anywhere. Muscles are only a bit sore as it did yesterday. I feel like I could make another loop of the same route as still don't feel tired.

So what are we seeing here??? Short distance training is just as good long distance training as long as you train very hard??
We're seeing that 30 minutes and 60 minutes are not altogether different enough. Go do 3 hours after 1.5 hours, or 4 hours after 2 hours, and you might change your ideas. You're simply not training that much, so that tiny of an increase doesn't have that much impact (though if you continued doing a hard hour every day it'd catch up to you quickly).

Also
I deliberately increase my aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance through the bike (installed full fenders with large mudflaps for example), big non-cycling helmet, and clothing that balloons in the wind.
Doing this with the sole purpose of trying to slow yourself down is completely pointless and silly.
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Old 07-30-20, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post

So what are we seeing here??? Short distance training is just as good long distance training as long as you train very hard??
Shorter distance hard rides are not any better than long distance lower intensity rides. They're just different. There is a big difference between a 35 minute ride and a 6 ++ hour ride. Different adaptation, different energy systems at work. Doing only short rides doesn't mean that you have the fitness required to do long distance rides. To be able to go the distance you need to spend time in the saddle and ride long distance.
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Old 07-30-20, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
I deliberately increase my aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance through the bike (installed full fenders with large mudflaps for example), big non-cycling helmet, and clothing that balloons in the wind. Plus, the bike is 37 lbs
The theory sounds good but the reality is different. Increasing bike weight and aerodynamic drag isn't going to make you faster....It's just like people who think that boxing while holding dumbbells in their hand will make them faster stronger puncher...but in reality it doesn't work that way and produces the opposite and makes you slower.
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Old 07-30-20, 07:59 AM
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I can't even get warmed up in 30 minutes.
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Old 07-30-20, 08:21 AM
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I suspect the difference is in those traffic stops. Stop twice as much on the shorter ride, you have to work awful hard to get from 0-20 mph 20 times. It's like the difference between a criterion and a road race.
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Old 07-30-20, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
We're seeing that 30 minutes and 60 minutes are not altogether different enough. Go do 3 hours after 1.5 hours, or 4 hours after 2 hours, and you might change your ideas. You're simply not training that much, so that tiny of an increase doesn't have that much impact (though if you continued doing a hard hour every day it'd catch up to you quickly).
I live with my mom atm as her caregiver. Stroke survivor. Never know when she'll be ok on her own again. Means my maximum training time outdoors is 1 hr that is before I had to assist her like change of activities


Doing this with the sole purpose of trying to slow yourself down is completely pointless and silly.
It's suicidal to train at near maximum speeds in full aero in a very crowded, poor 3rd world city. But I also want to train at high power output all the time (to maximize my 1 hr training window) without going dangerously too fast in the horrible traffic conditions I deal with. So the solution is obvious - deliberately add resistance to yourself and the bike.

Pros are even goofier at it!

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Old 07-30-20, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
I suspect the difference is in those traffic stops. Stop twice as much on the shorter ride, you have to work awful hard to get from 0-20 mph 20 times. It's like the difference between a criterion and a road race.
Right on!

I definitely stop or slow down a lot more than 20x and then accelerate like crazy to 20 mph every time!

To give you an idea of the conditions I ride in. Definitely suicidal to try to hit racing speeds here. That's why I deliberately add drag to my bike so I still workout at high sustained effort without getting too fast




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Old 07-30-20, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
I live with my mom atm as her caregiver. Stroke survivor. Never know when she'll be ok on her own again. Means my maximum training time outdoors is 1 hr that is before I had to assist her like change of activities

It's suicidal to train at near maximum speeds in full aero in a very crowded, poor 3rd world city. But I also want to train at high power output all the time (to maximize my 1 hr training window) without going dangerously too fast in the horrible traffic conditions I deal with. So the solution is obvious - deliberately add resistance to yourself and the bike.

Pros are even goofier at it!
None of that really changes anything. You're not training much and that's why it doesn't seem like that big of a difference. 30 mins -> 1 hour is not a significant difference. If you trained a lot more and then tried to double that, you'd notice a difference.

No, that's definitely not an obvious solution in the least, but you do you.
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Old 07-30-20, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
The theory sounds good but the reality is different. Increasing bike weight and aerodynamic drag isn't going to make you faster....It's just like people who think that boxing while holding dumbbells in their hand will make them faster stronger puncher...but in reality it doesn't work that way and produces the opposite and makes you slower.
I really don't have a choice here.

I ride in extreme traffic conditions. See the pictures I posted above. It gets dangerous to sustain speeds above 25 mph in such conditions. I increase drag instead so I can still train at high power output at safer speeds.

I'm still maintaining a very crouched down aero position and >80 rpm cadence to train my muscles for it.
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Old 07-30-20, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
None of that really changes anything. You're not training much and that's why it doesn't seem like that big of a difference. 30 mins -> 1 hour is not a significant difference. If you trained a lot more and then tried to double that, you'd notice a difference.

No, that's definitely not an obvious solution in the least, but you do you.

I still have an option to considerably increase my sustained power output in 1 hr.

Between my daily job at home and caregiving duties, I really can't take it past 1 hr being away at home.

I have already reduced my body weight to 128 lbs (I'm 5'8" in height) while significantly increasing the size and density of my leg muscles in 7 weeks since I started cycling. I still have plenty of time to make large gains in power output.

Don't get me wrong that I don't feel pain during training. I get lots of pain in the muscles, including lots of pain in the lungs. Not to mention, I constantly train in ~110 F heat, 12 to 2pm as it's the only time safe to ride fast enough in the city streets. I've often felt like collapsing or drowning from losing breath in all the effort. I do get a bit of soreness after the ride but they'll be gone in 12 hrs and I'm fresh the next morning, that's why I don't take a day off in training and I always train hard, no recovery rides.
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Old 07-30-20, 11:14 AM
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So, what's the question again?

Short duration rides are different from long duration rides.

That cover it?
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Old 07-30-20, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Shorter distance hard rides are not any better than long distance lower intensity rides. They're just different. There is a big difference between a 35 minute ride and a 6 ++ hour ride. Different adaptation, different energy systems at work. Doing only short rides doesn't mean that you have the fitness required to do long distance rides. To be able to go the distance you need to spend time in the saddle and ride long distance.
I may never get the chance to test it. I'm a full time caregiver for my mom in addition to my home-based job. 1 hr is my max.

I can still increase my power output considerably in that hour. Not many cyclists can sustain over 400 watts for one hour...Which means there's still hope I can maxout my cycling strength in those on hard trainings.
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Old 07-30-20, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
So, what's the question again?

Short duration rides are different from long duration rides.

That cover it?
Yup. Sadly, I'd never find out myself.
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Old 07-30-20, 11:48 AM
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Answer to question: Not a question of better or as good or . . .It's different, that's all that can be said. It's still training. You were able to go hard for an hour because of the hours per week you've been at it for those 7 weeks. That's how it works. You obviously could have gone at it for longer had you the time to do so. Training is cumulative in the sense of total training impulse per unit time, which we commonly extend to a week or a month or a year, normally expressed as average training impulse per day for some length or period of time. It's all good, nothing wrong with anything you're doing, just be careful! Hours X risk is a real number. Inspect and pump your tires before every ride.
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Old 07-30-20, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
I really don't have a choice here.

I ride in extreme traffic conditions. See the pictures I posted above. It gets dangerous to sustain speeds above 25 mph in such conditions. I increase drag instead so I can still train at high power output at safer speeds.

I'm still maintaining a very crouched down aero position and >80 rpm cadence to train my muscles for it.
The most important thing is that you're riding outside and using your limited time constructively...Sometimes life has a way of getting in the way, but at least you're doing something to improve your fitness. Riding is heavy traffic on dangerous roads isn't easy and requires different type of skills and awareness. Keep doing what you're doing and I would also recommend you start doing recovery rides at lower intensity or even take one day off and do a different type of exercise on your day off.. If you keep riding very hard every single day you will eventually burn out and stop improving.
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Old 07-30-20, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
The most important thing is that you're riding outside and using your limited time constructively...Sometimes life has a way of getting in the way, but at least you're doing something to improve your fitness. Riding is heavy traffic on dangerous roads isn't easy and requires different type of skills and awareness. Keep doing what you're doing and I would also recommend you start doing recovery rides at lower intensity or even take one day off and do a different type of exercise on your day off.. If you keep riding very hard every single day you will eventually burn out and stop improving.
Agreed, but it's more interesting to the beginning rider to keep at it until they reach that point. In fact, it's more effective to go at it until one noticeably slows down, then rest and recover and repeat the cycle. The idea is to overload, recover, repeat. If one it "doing it right" when one starts up again after the recovery, one should be slightly faster than one was before. Etc. When one stops improving, it's time to change the workout. That's the theory. I seldom could manage to keep the workout the same for long enough to get the effect, which was also OK. Weather and stuff happens. But the few times I did, it did seem like I got a good result.
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Old 07-30-20, 06:55 PM
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I traveled extensively throughout Southeast Asia although I did not get to the Philippines. I get the traffic and road conditions not being great for sustained cycling. I remember golfing in Singapore and it was so hot and humid I had to wring out my clothes when finished.

Considering your caregiver situation, I would suggest a trainer/rollers. You could get out for an hour outside but be back to check on her and then launch an indoor session to add to the outdoors or do split workouts with a morning session with one objective and an afternoon with another. Just an idea. I have done mixed road and trainer workouts where I was riding near the house and it started to rain. I finished the workout inside.

And I suspect older trainers are pretty cheap since most want new smart trainers. The other aspect of structured work indoors is that it is very time efficient. Sometimes it seems like it takes me forever to get out of the house. Goof luck.
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Old 07-30-20, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Answer to question: Not a question of better or as good or . . .It's different, that's all that can be said. It's still training. You were able to go hard for an hour because of the hours per week you've been at it for those 7 weeks. That's how it works. You obviously could have gone at it for longer had you the time to do so. Training is cumulative in the sense of total training impulse per unit time, which we commonly extend to a week or a month or a year, normally expressed as average training impulse per day for some length or period of time. It's all good, nothing wrong with anything you're doing, just be careful! Hours X risk is a real number. Inspect and pump your tires before every ride.
So that's how it works, thanks!

In the first few weeks, what made it really hard for me is the saddle discomfort and pressure on my hands in the crouched down position. I changed my saddle to a drooping nose and with a deep groove in the middle which solved saddle discomfort. Solving the pressure on hands took longer since that required working on my core muscles.

Yes, I feel like I could do for a lot longer. I still feel fresh after that hour. My muscles didn't get sore until a few hours later.
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Old 07-30-20, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
I traveled extensively throughout Southeast Asia although I did not get to the Philippines. I get the traffic and road conditions not being great for sustained cycling. I remember golfing in Singapore and it was so hot and humid I had to wring out my clothes when finished.

Considering your caregiver situation, I would suggest a trainer/rollers. You could get out for an hour outside but be back to check on her and then launch an indoor session to add to the outdoors or do split workouts with a morning session with one objective and an afternoon with another. Just an idea. I have done mixed road and trainer workouts where I was riding near the house and it started to rain. I finished the workout inside.

And I suspect older trainers are pretty cheap since most want new smart trainers. The other aspect of structured work indoors is that it is very time efficient. Sometimes it seems like it takes me forever to get out of the house. Goof luck.
YES, braking a lot and making 0-20 mph hard accelerations, standing up on the pedals every minute is more exhausting than sustained pedaling uphill for several minutes!

Here we get about 120 F heat index on the road with 70 to 80% humidity. I've gone used to it

Fortunately, I can ride in all-weather conditions. I installed full fender and large mudflaps on my bike for deliberately adding aero drag for training at increased power output without having to increase my speed. Proved incredibly useful in wet roads. I wear the same clothes I use for fair weather cycling in the rain. Makes no difference. I'd be soaking wet in the hot and humid conditions anyway even in dry conditions.

I have a stationary bike at home which my mom use for exercise. I sometimes use it too but it doesn't feel the same. Nothing wrong with the feel nor comfort of the stationary but can't find the motivation to produce the same effort in indoor training. Perhaps, I can use it as some sort of recovery sessions in between my daily outdoor rides when watching a movie or something.
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Old 07-30-20, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
The most important thing is that you're riding outside and using your limited time constructively...Sometimes life has a way of getting in the way, but at least you're doing something to improve your fitness. Riding is heavy traffic on dangerous roads isn't easy and requires different type of skills and awareness. Keep doing what you're doing and I would also recommend you start doing recovery rides at lower intensity or even take one day off and do a different type of exercise on your day off.. If you keep riding very hard every single day you will eventually burn out and stop improving.
As long as I keep under a certain speed, I'm safe but still very scary at the reduced speeds! Deliberately increasing aero drag and weight on the bike helps to keep slow while keeping the intensity high.

I've taken recovery days before. One with an easy ride and one with an easy workout on the stationary bike. Doesn't seem to work out as well for me for some reason. Perhaps, I should take not just one day but few days recovery just for one time. Would that work?
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Old 07-31-20, 06:37 AM
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I rode the same 1 hr 10 min route and looks like I'm sticking to it. Average speeds went down a tiny bit because it was raining hard and had to brake more in the downhills for safety. I went faster on the long uphill sections though.
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Old 08-03-20, 08:59 AM
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it suggests that riding a bike is not that strenuous. you could probably double it again and feel fine
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Old 08-03-20, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider View Post
it suggests that riding a bike is not that strenuous. you could probably double it again and feel fine
I just did and finally felt some saddle pain! Definitely need to change my stock saddle soon!

Just for testing..... Jumping to a 2 hr ride at almost twice the distance isn't really that different but mom got so worried, I'm never going to do it again! I'm caregiving for my mom but sister was home too so she's well taken care of.

I'll get back to hard 1 hr daily training regime and no longer do more than that. We got plenty of hills and drag already to get to athlete level fitness if I push hard enough in that hour.
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Old 08-06-20, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
In fact, it's more effective to go at it until one noticeably slows down, then rest and recover and repeat the cycle. The idea is to overload, recover, repeat. If one it "doing it right" when one starts up again after the recovery, one should be slightly faster than one was before. Etc. When one stops improving, it's time to change the workout. That's the theory. I seldom could manage to keep the workout the same for long enough to get the effect, which was also OK. Weather and stuff happens. But the few times I did, it did seem like I got a good result.
The terms are "over-reach" and "over-training". They're different things. Lookup the Trainerroad podcasts and search for "over-reach". Then listen to the sessions available.

Then, I think you would write that post a bit differently. Either way, I think those concepts at a bit out of scope for this poster's level starting out.

I'd agree with Hermes. Buy rollers or a fluid trainer for indoors use. Then, buy some kind of book with some plans in them. Keep it simple. If it's an hour at a time, the Time Crunched Cyclist might be OK. It's an author that has a lot of detractors (for good reason), but it's a book that does work well for some folks to just grab a plan in it and hit the trainer. Pick a beginner plan, and just do it. Maybe repeat the plan. If budget, use a HRM and a speed sensor and lookup the fluid trainer's "curve". Any of those books like that probably cover how to do the plans with power or HRM and a speed curve.

In this topic (that seems to bridge across two forum posted topics) we're getting into some pretty specific and weird things that aren't really relevant for where you are yet. Let's not focus on all the heavy bike flappy clothes playing in traffic stuff.

Sorry, but with what is posted so far I wouldn't concern myself with over-reach or over-training or the concepts of periodicity whatsoever yet either.

Just ride the thing indoors mostly according to a plan and enjoy your riding outdoors however you can. Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield. Good focused work indoors on the trainer according to a ready-bake plan, make the rough street rides your "fun" rides that don't need structure.

Stay safe on the street rides.
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