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3 hr ride without drinking nor eating safe?

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3 hr ride without drinking nor eating safe?

Old 03-30-21, 10:40 PM
  #126  
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Brought water and snack, but didn't need to take either when I did this ride. Not fully three hours, but a moderate amount of mountain climbing. It was sunny and in the 70's, though not humid, so I sweated a good amount. After the ride, I had to take a pretty long pisss(was pretty light and clear). Not recommending others to do this, especially if you haven't tried biking dry for more than an hour. But just noting that it's possible for a human to adapt to dry biking.
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Old 03-31-21, 04:35 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post

Brought water and snack, but didn't need to take either when I did this ride. Not fully three hours, but a moderate amount of mountain climbing. It was sunny and in the 70's, though not humid, so I sweated a good amount. After the ride, I had to take a pretty long pisss(was pretty light and clear). Not recommending others to do this, especially if you haven't tried biking dry for more than an hour. But just noting that it's possible for a human to adapt to dry biking.
But you went 21 miles in that time. Quite a number of people can run that distance in that duration without taking on anything either, so... ?
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Old 03-31-21, 10:07 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
But you went 21 miles in that time. Quite a number of people can run that distance in that duration without taking on anything either, so... ?
That's true. I recall about 4-5 people in my 21 year history of mountain biking passing me while they were running. I don't think I'm a particularly strong physical specimen. Perhaps someone could start a thread about running for 3 hours without drinking.

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Old 03-31-21, 10:43 AM
  #129  
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This thread is still alive? My wife and I were starting a backpack trip last year. A little ways up the trail, we met 2 women who'd started at the other end, 75 miles and over 15,000' away, but yesterday. They were laughing, kind of running and jumping down the descent. They had vests with water bottle pockets, typical ultra rig. I'd guess they could have done most anything they wanted to do. That was really fun to see, made our day. Sort of puts things in perspective.
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Old 03-31-21, 01:39 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
Today, I did a 3 hr ride.
sounds like you weren't trying hard enough.
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Old 03-31-21, 05:17 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
That's true. I recall about 4-5 people in my 21 year history of mountain biking passing me while they were running. I don't think I'm a particularly strong physical specimen. Perhaps someone could start a thread about running for 3 hours without drinking.
Why? You're the only person that somehow thinks this is a special and unique thing to do.

I can do 21 miles in 55 minutes and not drink or eat anything either. But in training, what's the point?
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Old 03-31-21, 05:51 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Why? You're the only person that somehow thinks this is a special and unique thing to do.

I can do 21 miles in 55 minutes and not drink or eat anything either. But in training, what's the point?
You can climb MTB 21 mi and climb 2500 ft in 55 minutes? I'm very impressed. When I cycle back and forth to work 20 mi, it takes me about 1.5 hr. But that includes 1000 ft of climbing. But I know that's crap compared to your abilities.
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Old 03-31-21, 06:27 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
You can climb MTB 21 mi and climb 2500 ft in 55 minutes? I'm very impressed. When I cycle back and forth to work 20 mi, it takes me about 1.5 hr. But that includes 1000 ft of climbing. But I know that's crap compared to your abilities.
Has nothing to do with what I can or cannot do, and everything to do with the fact that you continually ignore that exertion plays a vital role in caloric needs and not solely duration.

You could stretch that 21 miles out to 6 hours and it wouldn't change anything other than continue a completely pointless tangent.
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Old 03-31-21, 10:53 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Has nothing to do with what I can or cannot do, and everything to do with the fact that you continually ignore that exertion plays a vital role in caloric needs and not solely duration.

You could stretch that 21 miles out to 6 hours and it wouldn't change anything other than continue a completely pointless tangent.
I'm not interested in caloric needs. I don't care about speed. I'm interested in upregulating fat metabolism. If you walk around America, it's obvious that it doesn't happen for most people. If you're feeding throughout your exertion, your body will prioritize burning eaten glucose/fat, then glycogen stores, and then your own body fat. If you're fasted when you exert yourself, where is the ATP generation coming from if not from your own fat stores? Of course if optimizing how fast you can complete your biking trip is a priority, then by all means feed and drink. But I don't care about speed/performance. Obviously, as you've pointed out in nearly every single one of your posts, including probably the next post that you submit. Burritos is slow, I get it. Say it again if it makes you happy. Or you'll post something to the effect that fat metabolism does not happen when you're fasted.
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Old 04-01-21, 01:52 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
I'm not interested in caloric needs. I don't care about speed. I'm interested in upregulating fat metabolism. If you walk around America, it's obvious that it doesn't happen for most people. If you're feeding throughout your exertion, your body will prioritize burning eaten glucose/fat, then glycogen stores, and then your own body fat. If you're fasted when you exert yourself, where is the ATP generation coming from if not from your own fat stores? Of course if optimizing how fast you can complete your biking trip is a priority, then by all means feed and drink. But I don't care about speed/performance. Obviously, as you've pointed out in nearly every single one of your posts, including probably the next post that you submit. Burritos is slow, I get it. Say it again if it makes you happy. Or you'll post something to the effect that fat metabolism does not happen when you're fasted.
Fat metabolism happens whether you're exercising in the fasted state or not. Eating a high fat diet and training in the fasted state may increase fat oxidation a little but even in the fasted state you still have plenty of glycogen available in your muscles which will be used. You don't need to train in the fasted state to be able to do 2-3 hrs of exercise without additional carbs.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you burned carbs or fat, if you ingest fewer Cals than you burn you will lose weight. You might burn a few more fat calories during exercise vs someone riding at higher intensity but over the course of 24 hours it doesn't make a difference.
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Old 04-01-21, 02:16 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Fat metabolism happens whether you're exercising in the fasted state or not. Eating a high fat diet and training in the fasted state may increase fat oxidation a little but even in the fasted state you still have plenty of glycogen available in your muscles which will be used. You don't need to train in the fasted state to be able to do 2-3 hrs of exercise without additional carbs.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you burned carbs or fat, if you ingest fewer Cals than you burn you will lose weight. You might burn a few more fat calories during exercise vs someone riding at higher intensity but over the course of 24 hours it doesn't make a difference.
I agree. Adipocytes are always expelling fat as a fuel source for the body. In a highly aerobic state, it's likely pouring it out. But what happens if insulin is high?

Physiologic Effects of Insulin.
Insulin and Lipid MetabolismThe metabolic pathways for utilization of fats and carbohydrates are deeply and intricately intertwined. Considering insulin's profound effects on carbohydrate metabolism, it stands to reason that insulin also has important effects on lipid metabolism, including the following:
1. Insulin promotes synthesis of fatty acids in the liver. As discussed above, insulin is stimulatory to synthesis of glycogen in the liver. However, as glycogen accumulates to high levels (roughly 5% of liver mass), further synthesis is strongly suppressed.
When the liver is saturated with glycogen, any additional glucose taken up by hepatocytes is shunted into pathways leading to synthesis of fatty acids, which are exported from the liver as lipoproteins. The lipoproteins are ripped apart in the circulation, providing free fatty acids for use in other tissues, including adipocytes, which use them to synthesize triglyceride.

2. Insulin inhibits breakdown of fat in adipose tissue by inhibiting the intracellular lipase that hydrolyzes triglycerides to release fatty acids.

Insulin facilitates entry of glucose into adipocytes, and within those cells, glucose can be used to synthesize glycerol. This glycerol, along with the fatty acids delivered from the liver, are used to synthesize triglyceride within the adipocyte. By these mechanisms, insulin is involved in further accumulation of triglyceride in fat cells.

From a whole body perspective, insulin has a fat-sparing effect. Not only does it drive most cells to preferentially oxidize carbohydrates instead of fatty acids for energy, insulin indirectly stimulates accumulation of fat in adipose tissue.
Yes adding carbs (and H20) benefits performance. But eating, especially carbohydrates requisitely raises insulin, unless you have a failed pancreas. Is a bump in insulin a big deal? Depends. Is it happening occasionally or many many times a day? If it's happening many times a day, that's a recipe for insulin resistance and that mid abdominal(visceral fat) bulge that doesn't ever go away.
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Old 04-01-21, 02:31 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
Yes adding carbs (and H20) benefits performance. But eating, especially carbohydrates requisitely raises insulin, unless you have a failed pancreas. Is a bump in insulin a big deal? Depends. Is it happening occasionally or many many times a day? If it's happening many times a day, that's a recipe for insulin resistance and that mid abdominal(visceral fat) bulge that doesn't ever go away.
Insulin won't increase if you ingest carbs while riding. Eat them before and you'll get a spike but not during exercise. See: Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and performance In the chart below P and C refer to Placebo or Carbohydrate beverage taken before or during exercise. Note that for PC (Placebo before and Carb during) there is no increase in insulin levels.
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Old 04-01-21, 03:08 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Insulin won't increase if you ingest carbs while riding. Eat them before and you'll get a spike but not during exercise. See: Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and performance In the chart below P and C refer to Placebo or Carbohydrate beverage taken before or during exercise. Note that for PC (Placebo before and Carb during) there is no increase in insulin levels.
Good chart. Thank you for that. This may be true for someone who is metabolically healthy/flexible. Most people consuming the SAD(standard american diet) aren't, and I suspect(though have no obvious evidence) that their graph wouldn't look as favorable. It'd also be nice to see what that chart would look like 20 years later if that specimen carb loaded before every exercise.

Dr. Tim Noakes, one of the originators of the "Carb Loading" theory, with his best seller of "Lore of Running" from 1986 has done a complete 180 degrees on his view of carbohydrates. As someone who ran marathons regularly and followed his advice of carb loading for decades, he became a type 2 diabetic. And while this has nothing to do with fasting and exercise, my contention is that ingested carbohydrates is not a requisite to exercise. If you want performance, then yes, it'll help. But spiking insulin for decades could, for some, affect insulin resistance. I will concede that if you are used to eating before exercising, then exercising fasted off the bat could lead to untoward affects(dizziness, lightheadedness, low blood sugar). I'm not recommending it, but best to ease into it if attempting it.

https://180nutrition.com.au/exercise...ohydrate-myth/

If you're interested, you can see how he was persecuted by authorities when he changed his mind:
https://www.outsideonline.com/214027...low-carb-rebel

Last edited by burritos; 04-01-21 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 04-01-21, 03:49 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
I'm not interested in caloric needs. I don't care about speed.
Precisely. Which is why this tangent is, once again, completely irrelevant to the topic.

But you're adamant about derailing it repeatedly. Okay.
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Old 04-01-21, 04:02 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
And while this has nothing to do with fasting and exercise, my contention is that ingested carbohydrates is not a requisite to exercise. If you want performance, then yes, it'll help.
Nah, it's pretty much mandatory for performance in endurance sport.
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Old 04-01-21, 05:43 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Precisely. Which is why this tangent is, once again, completely irrelevant to the topic.

But you're adamant about derailing it repeatedly. Okay.
Title of the thread is: "3 hr ride without drinking nor eating safe?" Good try though.
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Old 04-01-21, 05:44 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Nah, it's pretty much mandatory for performance in endurance sport.
https://hvmn.com/blogs/podcast/episo...ft-zach-bitter

No mandatory carbs for zack.
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Old 04-01-21, 06:31 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post

No mandatory carbs for zack.
Imagine how fast he'd go with proper nutrition.
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Old 04-01-21, 06:35 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
Title of the thread is: "3 hr ride without drinking nor eating safe?" Good try though.
None of your posts (and ensuing replies) have anything to do with safety. Good try, though.
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Old 04-01-21, 07:59 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
In that entire transcript the reason he went keto was because he said he slept better. Some studies have shown the exact opposite - that a keto diet can make sleeping more difficult. Sure, his fat metabolism increased significantly but there's no indication in that transcript that it had an effect on his performance.
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Old 04-01-21, 10:36 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by guachi View Post
In that entire transcript the reason he went keto was because he said he slept better. Some studies have shown the exact opposite - that a keto diet can make sleeping more difficult. Sure, his fat metabolism increased significantly but there's no indication in that transcript that it had an effect on his performance.
One could argue that winning a 100 mile race in record fashion, the ultimate endurance race, is evidence of performance. No?
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Old 04-01-21, 11:29 PM
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I think this topic could be separated into casual riders who take it relatively easy, and those who push themselves to the maximum. The best approach, is different for each group.
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Old 04-02-21, 03:17 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
One could argue that winning a 100 mile race in record fashion, the ultimate endurance race, is evidence of performance. No?
One could argue that outliers exist in every arena, and the presence of one does not support a particular assertion, it merely showcases how far removed it is from the norm.
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Old 04-02-21, 08:09 AM
  #149  
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I try to keep my fasted cycling rides around the one hour mark. My ride yesterday was at the 26 hour fasting mark. At any rate, if something is wrong your body will be sure to communicate this to you.


Fasting and Exercise, Dr. Jason Fung
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Old 04-02-21, 11:13 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by gios View Post
I try to keep my fasted cycling rides around the one hour mark. My ride yesterday was at the 26 hour fasting mark. At any rate, if something is wrong your body will be sure to communicate this to you.

https://youtu.be/UF0AkfJqq2s

Fasting and Exercise, Dr. Jason Fung
I've crossed Jason Fung's article, but not Dr. Patrick's clip. Thanks for that bit of bias confirmation for myself.
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