ZHVelo

That is very cool and a lot of climbing for skiing!

ZHVelo

You could click on the video. Dylan Johnson, he does training videos on YT that are well-sourced.

Road Fan

After reading the article I see better what sweet spot is!

asgelle

This might help. https://www.amazon.com/Cyclists-Trai...s%2C192&sr=8-3

Road Fan

In the 5th edition, did Joe Friel add a section on polarized? At least in 4th it wasn't apparent.

Road Fan

I wonder if there should be formally an event for Mixed Pairs Time Trialling?

Hermes

Sanctioned team time trials exist at the state, national and world levels for road and track. And there are sanctioned team time trials as local races that have mixed categories and there are unsanctioned races that have mixed categories.

For example, we race a local unsanctioned team time trial for two racers. In this case, it is an open category so we compete against men and women. We did a sanctioned two person 3k team pursuit at the indoor Carson Velodrome by getting special permission from the refs. USAC refs have a lot of flexibility in allowing racing as long as the opportunity is open to all and it is fair. When we lived in NorCal, there was a sanctioned two person team time trial that mixed two person team categories as well as tandem. We raced our tandem.

At the state level and national level, they have mixed tandem by age. We have done tandem racing at state championships.

Carbonfiberboy 

Progress report on the OP topic, "Polarized training (PT)...Good for low volume rider?"

I'm a 75 y.o low volume rider. No time constraints, only recovery constraints due to age. I'm getting in 6-8 hours/week, TSS of 300-500. I started over at zero last September due to Covid restrictions and a horrible saddle sore. I was way out of shape. I've gradually worked my way around to my usual schedule for the past 20 years or so: I'm now riding as hard as I can, to exhaustion, every Sunday when weather is decent. Mid-week, I only do moderate rides using HR and breathing, not power to determine what's moderate. HR is in the origin story of Polarized Training, not power. So for instance I might do a normal Z2 ride at a steady power, or I might do a long FastPedal interval with Z2 HR and Z1 power, or I might do low cadence intervals at a Z2 HR and Z4 power, that sort of thing.

To give myself some extra grief on the Sunday rides, I do them on our tandem with my wife. There's nothing like accelerating a 340 lb. tandem to make your legs feel it. So that's the high end part of my Polarized week, all I need to keep my legs sore until Wednesday. My wife and I also are trying to hike on Monday, the day after the killer ride, so that's several hours of Z1. So far, we aren't in good enough shape to be able to do that, only maybe an hour's walk in the neighborhood, but I think a couple weeks more of this and we'll be hiking again.

The reason I'm posting now is that it's working. I'm riding at about the level I was at 3 years ago. I did a Z2 breathing and HR roller ride today, but at 10-15 watts more than I was doing in December. That's the effect of adding in intervals and the hard tandem ride.

I know most of you aren't familiar with the rapidity of the age-related ability drop-off, but that's actually a pretty amazing result. I'm amazed anyway. I put it all down to the endless Z2 roller rides I did from September through December. I did the same 6-8 hours/week, 300-500 TSS, but all Z2 on my rollers. Then I added in 105% FTP intervals, FastPedal, and low cadence work in January and when we felt strong enough, 40 mile tandem rides in March.

My FastPedal work is back up to what I did 20 years ago, steady 117 cadence on the rollers in Z1/2. I'm trying to gradually work that up to a 45' interval, the most I ever did. I'm a happy boy.

burnthesheep

FWIW, if you apply the polarized model to a low volume rider (6 hours/week) on the 80/20 # of workouts and 90/10 time in zones idea...........you get 10% of 6 hours. Or 36 minutes. 36 minutes per week of the high intensity zones isn't enough to build fitness. IMO.

When you apply PT to higher volume riders, it makes sense. 10% of 10hrs a week even is 1 hour. 10% of somebody spending 20 hours a week is 2 hours. 60min and 120min is a LOT more time at intensity than 36min.

I know they define that 10% differently depending on who is talking. Sometimes it's that 3-zone system, other times the normal zone systems saying Z4+ or something. I typically get 20 to 30% per week time spent in Z4 and above. So, not polarized.

Carbonfiberboy 

I dunno. Seems like 3 X 6 X 3 Z5 within a 60' Z2 ride twice a week would do a lot of good. Give your current training twenty or thirty years and see how it goes. I know that's a complaint about the CTS time-crunched theory. After 2 or so years of that, one stagnates. Not enough aerobic training impulse, too much anaerobic. That's also the reason that CTS says the their TCC program is only effective for rides of up to 3 hours. There's also this interesting bit, that riders who have focused on high intensity for many years, seem to get Afib. I'm now the oldest person in our group of ~130 riders who's still able to ride hard, those my age and older having dropped out due to Afib. I want to keep riding indefinitely so I'll keep limiting the high end.

burnthesheep

I don't recall if it was here or on Slowtwitch somebody recommended that CTS book early in my riding days when it was still a journey to go 15 miles.

I did the intro roadie plan which was the best-of two 8min tests then a bunch of workouts like 3x8, 3x3 two sets, 3x9 under over, etc... It worked in the short term to get me competent up to A rides and able to hang.

Issue was, I didn't realize when they said in the book "this works but your 'matchbook' will be smaller" that it meant you almost only have a single match. I didn't have the aerobic engine to burn multiples and recover. So when I raced a road race and did something, that was it! And was frustrated.

2020 and into this year I've made a concerted effort to "consume" a looooot of tempo, sweetspot, and 95% level power. I'm a bit smarter also now but at weeknight worlds out of town at the "tough" A ride, I used to barely be able to hang in the lead group.

This last time, was able to help cause the entire group to splinter and then rotate with just 4 of us total to the "line". Guys definitely punching above my class also on a skills and power standpoint.

I credit that with the improved aerobic engine.

I think the time crunched folks that need some aerobic improvement should figure out how to work deals with life on how to get a couple longer rides a week with day off in between. Like instead of HIIT all the time with 60min workouts 5 to 6x a week.........do one hard 60min workout then two 2hr workouts per week. Both are 6 hrs a week.

YMMV. That's just random thoughts on my part.

Carbonfiberboy 

I assume you're using supercompensation theory to space your hard workouts. How do you structure that? I'm using HRV and find that I get a high HRV 2-3 days (varies) after a hard or long workout, so I'm trying to do the hard work on high HRV days but that's not easy either.

burnthesheep

Haha, that term is beyond my knowledge. After leaving the time crunched cyclist book, here's the best way to describe what I do:

-Used the USAC discount for Trainingpeaks
-"Periodize" weeks of sweetspot or more volume and weeks with "hard" workouts with at least a full day off before a hard workout

A sweetspot or volume week might be 4500KJ for me. Still not a lot of time/effort. An "intensity" week will be like 3500KJ.

Sweetspot/tempo week: 5 rides totally probably about 7hrs........30% of time in zones at upper Z3 or Z4. Almost zero time in Z1, Z5, Z6. Some Z2 is unavoidable outdoors.
Sweetspot/tempo week with "long ride": 4 rides total, one of the rides grows to 120 to 180min closer to upper Z2
"Hard" week: 1 workout of something like 3x8, 1 workout of something like 5min "pursuits", 1 time trial simulation (25-35min), one lower Z2 workout

I'll go usually two weeks of the sweetspot/tempo majority work, then a week of "hard". Repeat. Then a double day off before starting the "hard" week.

That is NOT very official or super structured. But I follow my TP pretty religiously WRT time in zones, KJ spent, and during workout TSS spent.

I am pretty darn pleased so far in my real world segment, TT time, weeknight worlds results. Race results are at mercy of other competitors, so may vary. But I'm setting all manner of PR.

My gravel skills are way down, but PR's are up right now. I hadn't ridden gravel for half a year almost, but killed some PR's during a 3 hr ride yesterday. Not even an all out shorter ride.