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Keto and cycling

Old 10-16-22, 06:18 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Round and round we go, lol.
No, I really don't have anything else to say about it. I'm fine if you don't agree. I do have a right to my opinion though. All cyclists you know may be total health nuts. Most I know could stand to drop a few pounds, mostly because they pig out on junk food too much. The little extra weight isn't a big deal but I don't trust the food industry any more than the tobacco industry.
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Old 10-16-22, 06:43 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
Have you ever tested your blood sugar when you feel like you are bonking. Is it 6 hours without calories that gets you feeling bonked? Do you often go 6 hours without calories otherwise?
Thanks. My blood glucose must be low by definition if I’m bonking, and the energy deficit isn’t being made up from other sources. The question is why does that happen on the boat and not the bike, where I eat even less? Duration might have something to do with it, although my energy expenditure/time on the bike must be more than double. And yes, more carbs could certainly fix the problem!
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Old 10-17-22, 09:54 AM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
Most I know could stand to drop a few pounds, mostly because they pig out on junk food too much.
Are they more or less overweight than your sedentary non-cyclist friends?
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Old 10-17-22, 10:41 AM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
Agree with all of the above and well stated.

Now explain this to me: I am a skinny little gink who, rides 10-15 hrs a week, eats a relatively low carb diet diet (what wife prefers) and hasnt bonked on the bike in decades. However, if I put in a six hour day of easy sailing with the spouse, by the time we get to the dock or anchorage, I am nearly always starting to bonk (I know the feeling) and after I get the anchor down and the most important things semi-squared away, I simply collapse, to be revived only by copious carbs and the immediate promise of gin and tonic. An hour later, Im fine. I have tried to time Clif Bars throughout the day and it helps a bit. Notably, I never crash metabolically on ocean races, where the watches are only 3 or 4 hrs and regular old sleepiness is the big problem.

I think I need the continuous muscle activity from cycling to stay up, but I dont understand how that works. Not enough lactate for the brain?
I don't know enough about sailing. Did it once in college with a friend who raced them. I found it to be hard work sailing. Ketone bodies can provide up to 60% of the brain's energy needs. When my ketone blood levels were consistently high, my overall energy levels were good. No ups and downs. I can't say I notice the effects of lactate despite the research saying that once you hit the MLSS and blood levels increase, they excess if supposedly partially used or cleared by the heart and brain in addition to conversion in the liver.....IIRC. Sorry that I could not help much but 6 hours sailing sounds like hard work.
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Old 10-17-22, 02:06 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
I do agree in general. The issue is that really obese people have put themselves in a drastic situation. If they knew how to eat reasonably healthy, they wouldn't be in such a situation to begin with. In their case, I think a more drastic measure is called for.
Cutting out carbs isn't the magical bullet you pretend it is though.

Diets generally need to have two main things, they need to be followable long term and they need to make you eat less. Keto tends to work because proteins and fats keep satiated longer than (short-chain) carbs.

Also, while it isn't fully understood, there are far too many studies showing the negatives of eating (too much) meat. I would rather eat carbs than eat a **** ton of meat.
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Old 10-17-22, 02:28 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
I don't think carbs in general are bad news. I regularly consume organic fruits and vegetables. I do think low carb is a good strategy to lose weight, especially any significant amount of weight.
I also think too many supposedly health-conscious cyclists are consuming too many carbs from processed foods and excusing it as a reward for the hard effort, having little thought about what chemicals they are consuming,
Pretty sure a steak is also not the ideal recovery food. So I take my pizza thank you very much.

And here you are, talking about "processed" again. Giving ever more the impression that a food is good as long as it is natural. Tell all the people who say got colon cancer that all that meat they ate had nothing to do with it and was good for them
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Old 10-18-22, 07:50 AM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Pretty sure a steak is also not the ideal recovery food. So I take my pizza thank you very much.

And here you are, talking about "processed" again. Giving ever more the impression that a food is good as long as it is natural. Tell all the people who say got colon cancer that all that meat they ate had nothing to do with it and was good for them
You seem to equate low carb with mostly meat. I suppose most "Keto" dieters do. I too agree that a mostly meat diet isn't healthy. You can certainly eat low carb and get into fat burning ketosis without even consuming meat. Personally, I only eat meat once every 3-4 days and when I plan on weight training.
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Old 10-18-22, 10:45 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
You seem to equate low carb with mostly meat. I suppose most "Keto" dieters do. I too agree that a mostly meat diet isn't healthy. You can certainly eat low carb and get into fat burning ketosis without even consuming meat. Personally, I only eat meat once every 3-4 days and when I plan on weight training.
Fair enough. Doesn't change that you equate carbs with processed foods.

Funny that you don't reply to anything except this one point that you admittedly justifiably pointed out is an assumption.

ps do enlighten me what you eat if you eat no carbs and no meat.
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Old 10-18-22, 11:41 AM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Fair enough. Doesn't change that you equate carbs with processed foods.

Funny that you don't reply to anything except this one point that you admittedly justifiably pointed out is an assumption.

ps do enlighten me what you eat if you eat no carbs and no meat.
I admit wanting to equate carbs with ultra-processed carbs. I mean even chopping and cooking is processing if you want to split hairs.

A typical meal for me with no meat, and low carb, not zero carb, would be something like. Broccoli and onions and mushrooms fried in olive oil, half an avocado, and a boiled egg. I might grate some cheese over my veggies. For dessert, I might have my favorite Greek Yogurt, Fage, with blueberries or blackberries. The Fage Yogurt has 90 calories,5g carbs and 18g protein per 3/4 cup. I usually only have the one meal between 3-5 pm. I might eat at 3 and save the dessert for a couple hours later.

I don't want to come across as a know it all. I'm old, sometimes cranky. I don't mean to sound snarky either. It's much easier to communicate in person than this ridiculous typing, with everyone making wrong assumptions too many times about everyone else.
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Old 10-19-22, 12:22 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
I admit wanting to equate carbs with ultra-processed carbs. I mean even chopping and cooking is processing if you want to split hairs.

A typical meal for me with no meat, and low carb, not zero carb, would be something like. Broccoli and onions and mushrooms fried in olive oil, half an avocado, and a boiled egg. I might grate some cheese over my veggies. For dessert, I might have my favorite Greek Yogurt, Fage, with blueberries or blackberries. The Fage Yogurt has 90 calories,5g carbs and 18g protein per 3/4 cup. I usually only have the one meal between 3-5 pm. I might eat at 3 and save the dessert for a couple hours later.

I don't want to come across as a know it all. I'm old, sometimes cranky. I don't mean to sound snarky either. It's much easier to communicate in person than this ridiculous typing, with everyone making wrong assumptions too many times about everyone else.
That's funny, when I asked that I was going to add "where do you get it from, avocados, eggs, peas, mushrooms and tofu"? There really isn't much food left, much healthy food, if you don't eat meat and carbs that has enough calories. I guess fish if you don't count that as meat, same for poultry. How do you feel about lentils? They have carbs but a lot are slow chain and a lot are fibre. You only have one meal a day? No breakfast, no lunch, just this early dinner with a delayed dessert?
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Old 10-19-22, 07:19 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
That's funny, when I asked that I was going to add "where do you get it from, avocados, eggs, peas, mushrooms and tofu"? There really isn't much food left, much healthy food, if you don't eat meat and carbs that has enough calories. I guess fish if you don't count that as meat, same for poultry. How do you feel about lentils? They have carbs but a lot are slow chain and a lot are fibre. You only have one meal a day? No breakfast, no lunch, just this early dinner with a delayed dessert?
Yea, I eat lentils and all kinds of beans too. I don't really care for tofu. Yes, I typically have all my calories for the day in a 2-3 hour window. I may move it earlier depending on what I want to do that day, but it's mostly between 3 and 6 pm. I started the IM fasting thing nearly 3 years ago as a solution to reduce loose skin from weight loss. I don't remember if I mentioned in this thread, but I was once morbidly obese. I lost nearly 200 lbs. in 2 years eating low carb whole foods and cycling. I eat meat. I just think less is healthier.

I started the IM fasting slowly just going a few hours and settled into 20--22 hours a day to get as much benefit from Autophagy as possible. I don't get hungry until I eat, and my blood sugar stays steady all day. I have more energy than I did in my 30's and I'm 54. I wouldn't head out on a really long ride without any food, but for my short therapy-fitness rides that I take nearly every day of 10-30 miles, the IM schedule works fine.
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Old 10-19-22, 08:58 AM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
Yea, I eat lentils and all kinds of beans too. I don't really care for tofu. Yes, I typically have all my calories for the day in a 2-3 hour window. I may move it earlier depending on what I want to do that day, but it's mostly between 3 and 6 pm. I started the IM fasting thing nearly 3 years ago as a solution to reduce loose skin from weight loss. I don't remember if I mentioned in this thread, but I was once morbidly obese. I lost nearly 200 lbs. in 2 years eating low carb whole foods and cycling. I eat meat. I just think less is healthier.

I started the IM fasting slowly just going a few hours and settled into 20--22 hours a day to get as much benefit from Autophagy as possible. I don't get hungry until I eat, and my blood sugar stays steady all day. I have more energy than I did in my 30's and I'm 54. I wouldn't head out on a really long ride without any food, but for my short therapy-fitness rides that I take nearly every day of 10-30 miles, the IM schedule works fine.
I mean if it works for you. But honestly, it doesn't sound fun nor something most humans could realistically achieve long term.
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Old 10-19-22, 09:46 AM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
I mean if it works for you. But honestly, it doesn't sound fun nor something most humans could realistically achieve long term.
As far as the IM fasting goes, you could get basically the same Autophagy benefit by doing a 24-48 hour fast a few times a year. As far as diet goes, I eat all kinds of whole food carbs. The only thing I don't eat is ultra-processed food and sugar. I think pretty much all humans ate this way before the advent of modern agriculture and the big food industry conglomerates.
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Old 10-20-22, 12:58 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
As far as the IM fasting goes, you could get basically the same Autophagy benefit by doing a 24-48 hour fast a few times a year. As far as diet goes, I eat all kinds of whole food carbs. The only thing I don't eat is ultra-processed food and sugar. I think pretty much all humans ate this way before the advent of modern agriculture and the big food industry conglomerates.
Humans ate bread, beer, rice, potatoes, all sorts of carbs...fruits...
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Old 10-20-22, 07:25 AM
  #190  
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[QUOTE=ZHVelo;22685325]Humans ate bread, beer, rice, potatoes, all sorts of carbs...fruits...[/QUOT

Bread, yes, but there is a vast difference in any bread from even 100 years ago from what you can buy packaged in the store today. I don't personally eat bread.
Beer, yes but still not the same and not considered healthy by anyone.
Rice,yes, also to be considered are the levels of Arsenic from when Arsenic was used as a pesticide in the same ground.
Potatoes, yes, but a potato is not the same as an order of fries.
Fruit, Yes, I eat fruit and consider most fruit healthy but even so you have to consider pesticides, and if weight loss is a goal I think it better to be very conservative in fruit consumption.
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Old 10-20-22, 10:25 AM
  #191  
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Humans have survived in large part because of genetic changes which allowed them to thrive on a huge range of foods, provided the macronutrient mix was within certain boundaries. Blaming the origin of epidemic obesity and metabolic disease on a relative surfeit of one macronutrient or another is not supported by evidence.

There are competing hypotheses regarding the role of carbs in obesity and metabolic syndrome. The carbohydrate-insulin theorists blame the carbs themselves, but animal data and human inpatient feeding studies tend to support boring old old input-output theory of too many calories regardless of source.

That said, the metabolic response to carbs may vary between healthy humans or animals and the very large human population with manifest or sub-clinical metabolic syndrome and insulin insensitivity. It could be that these people do benefit specifically from carb restriction and there is some evidence to support this.

Last edited by MoAlpha; 10-20-22 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 10-21-22, 03:55 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
As far as the IM fasting goes, you could get basically the same Autophagy benefit by doing a 24-48 hour fast a few times a year. As far as diet goes, I eat all kinds of whole food carbs. The only thing I don't eat is ultra-processed food and sugar. I think pretty much all humans ate this way before the advent of modern agriculture and the big food industry conglomerates.
Yes they ate natural food, fasted regularly, lived in caloric deficit, exercised more than we do today, breathed in fresh air and still got sick, suffered from age related chronic diseases and had a much shorter lifespan than we do today. Autophagy didn't seem to do anything positive for them.
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Old 10-21-22, 05:20 AM
  #193  
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[QUOTE=RH Clark;22685523]
Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Humans ate bread, beer, rice, potatoes, all sorts of carbs...fruits...[/QUOT

Bread, yes, but there is a vast difference in any bread from even 100 years ago from what you can buy packaged in the store today. I don't personally eat bread.
Beer, yes but still not the same and not considered healthy by anyone.
Rice,yes, also to be considered are the levels of Arsenic from when Arsenic was used as a pesticide in the same ground.
Potatoes, yes, but a potato is not the same as an order of fries.
Fruit, Yes, I eat fruit and consider most fruit healthy but even so you have to consider pesticides, and if weight loss is a goal I think it better to be very conservative in fruit consumption.
Ah yes, I forgot, you don't have bakeries in the US, though to be fair not all bakeries in Germanic countries are still good quality.

And yes, because fries are fried in fat. Not more carbs.
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Old 10-22-22, 02:02 PM
  #194  
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[QUOTE=ZHVelo;22686545]
Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post

Ah yes, I forgot, you don't have bakeries in the US, though to be fair not all bakeries in Germanic countries are still good quality.

And yes, because fries are fried in fat. Not more carbs.
More likely hydrogenated corn oil in the USA, possibly something already banned in your country and most European countries. Take a look sometime at the list of worldwide banned foodstuffs that the USA still consumes.
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Old 10-23-22, 09:33 AM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post

More likely hydrogenated corn oil in the USA, possibly something already banned in your country and most European countries. Take a look sometime at the list of worldwide banned foodstuffs that the USA still consumes.
I'm not sure what the point is that you are trying to make since you came into this thread talking about keto and now have moved the cheese to a entirely different thing that not even Keto diet will solve.
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