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-   -   no sit ups for core? (https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/1221924-no-sit-ups-core.html)

rubiksoval 02-21-21 06:02 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 21934295)
You're probably right. I can feel my heelcups and shoe uppers on the upstroke, but that's not lifting the weight of a powercrank, just my leg. I don't think I'd do better if I lifted any harder - or I would. The weird thing to me is that they still ebay for $300-$700. Lot of money for worthless junk . . .I'd try a set for $100.

But you did OK on them eventually? Except that they didn't improve your power or endurance?

What's that scantron? It doesn't google. My wife has a computtrainer, older model, but no electronics attached other than its head unit. I always wanted to see a polar graph of my pedaling.

Have a look at this, 2:06-2:13. I've been fascinated by the identical pedaling of these riders. They both lift the toe on the backstroke. I've tried and tried to do that at high power, and I just can't for more than a few strokes, though it's obviously better to enter the power stroke early, 11:00, with the toe well up. Comment please?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPlW4k2sXJI

Yeah, that kind of thing engages the core alright.

I got to where I could ride them for 30 minutes or so, but to what end, I never figured out. There was zero difference when I got back on my bike.

I guess it's called a spin scan. Scantron are those bubble sheets you take tests on in school :D Woops! :D It was something that showed where you were delivering power throughout the pedal stroke; essentially whether you unweighted the up leg as much or not (there is generally not significant differences here, apparently, but still some more efficient than others).

Pedaling is pedaling and it, like cadence, varies on preference, seat height, heel extension, etc. Smashing down is where the power comes from. Lifting toes on the backstroke is about one of the last things I'd think about for my own riding, though I sit a bit lower than most and keep my foot more horizontal through the bottom and top.

Just like Basso, there's nothing I care about in regards to Armstrong and Pantani, personally. Their era is over and was so egregiously f'ed up that I don't think much of anything is applicable, especially what they did in training or racing.

cubewheels 02-21-21 07:12 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 21934295)
Have a look at this, 2:06-2:13. I've been fascinated by the identical pedaling of these riders. They both lift the toe on the backstroke. I've tried and tried to do that at high power, and I just can't for more than a few strokes, though it's obviously better to enter the power stroke early, 11:00, with the toe well up. Comment please?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPlW4k2sXJI

It helps engage the glutes and also happens naturally when your legs are very tired / fatigued (instinct to relax the tired calves, the toes starts pointing up). It's not necessarily more efficient, just the body switching to different muscle groups to help save tired muscle groups from injury.

I've read that tour riders probably from Steve Hogg or another pro fitting article lower their saddle height as the tour progresses as they start pointing their heels down (toes up) from fatigue.

You'll notice Marco have down pointing toes pedaling style in his popular Giro video with chain dropping incident. His legs are probably fresh in that video compared to his race with Lance


Yeah, that kind of thing engages the core alright.
Absolutely. Using your glutes in a greater degree during the power stroke will more strain on the core muscles.

I found that if the core muscles starts to hurt, simply disengage your glutes and hamstring from the pedal stroke and concentrate only using quads and calves (sitted) and your core muscles will recover.

A predominant quad and calf "driver" will seldom hurt their core even if their core is not very strong. Using the glutes+core with the quads and/or calves will allow you to push down on the pedals with a force higher than your own weight. Quite advantageous in some disciplines like track sprinting.
.

Carbonfiberboy 02-21-21 07:45 PM


Originally Posted by rubiksoval (Post 21934810)
I got to where I could ride them for 30 minutes or so, but to what end, I never figured out. There was zero difference when I got back on my bike.

I guess it's called a spin scan. Scantron are those bubble sheets you take tests on in school :D Woops! :D It was something that showed where you were delivering power throughout the pedal stroke; essentially whether you unweighted the up leg as much or not (there is generally not significant differences here, apparently, but still some more efficient than others).

Pedaling is pedaling and it, like cadence, varies on preference, seat height, heel extension, etc. Smashing down is where the power comes from. Lifting toes on the backstroke is about one of the last things I'd think about for my own riding, though I sit a bit lower than most and keep my foot more horizontal through the bottom and top.

Just like Basso, there's nothing I care about in regards to Armstrong and Pantani, personally. Their era is over and was so egregiously f'ed up that I don't think much of anything is applicable, especially what they did in training or racing.

Yeah, some experiments show favorable results, others not so much.

I was really interested that they pedaled identically, coming from completely different traditions. They lift that toe to start the power stroke earlier, like 11:00 and then pull through the bottom and another maybe 20 with that heel cup. Putting more degrees into the power stroke seems helpful to me. Those slo-mo Ironwoman videos (not dopers) I've posted show the same pedaling extension of power stroke, though it's hard to see it's the same because of the body rotation on the tri-bike. I guess if I want to copy that, I have to train for it, like anything else.

I thought the most interesting aspects of the modern sports drugging was how steroids increased recovery ability - pretty obvious on stage races who stayed strong evenly day after day. The fad for high cadence was based on EPO. We've always known that folks who TT at high cadence had big VO2max numbers. EPO accentuated that. I still shake my head at those old Lance standing attacks. Oh sure, anyone could train to do that. Not. OTOH, those folks brought in some new technology other than doping, probably through the money that was involved with the doped riders' fame. I still ride the same frame model on which Lance won the '99 tour, not the same size though.

There was an article, I think in Outside, by a journalist who doped. He went to an unnamed doctor and said I'm a sports journalist and amateur athlete and I want to find out what happens to these pros who dope. And I have an expense account. So the doctor gradually introduced him to performance-enhancing drugs, one at a time. The journalist couldn't believe how fast and strong he got. IIRC, like $20k in 6 months for just the drugs. So when we hear of amateurs doping, it's just nuts in terms of ROI. Ego crazed folks.

Iride01 02-22-21 01:27 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 21934967)
There was an article, I think in Outside, by a journalist who doped. He went to an unnamed doctor and said I'm a sports journalist and amateur athlete and I want to find out what happens to these pros who dope. And I have an expense account. So the doctor gradually introduced him to performance-enhancing drugs, one at a time. The journalist couldn't believe how fast and strong he got. IIRC, like $20k in 6 months for just the drugs. So when we hear of amateurs doping, it's just nuts in terms of ROI. Ego crazed folks.

Are you perhaps talking about the guy that did this? https://www.netflix.com/title/80168079

It was sort of fascinating to watch and get a slight intro to a facet of the doping world

Carbonfiberboy 02-22-21 01:54 PM


Originally Posted by Iride01 (Post 21936120)
Are you perhaps talking about the guy that did this? https://www.netflix.com/title/80168079

It was sort of fascinating to watch and get a slight intro to a facet of the doping world

I don't think so. This journalist was more about seeing what doping could do and telling his readers about it, so folks could better understand the effects it had on those who participated in it. Icarus looks like an interesting film.

Tom L 02-25-21 01:39 PM


Originally Posted by cubewheels (Post 21934910)
It helps engage the glutes and also happens naturally when your legs are very tired / fatigued (instinct to relax the tired calves, the toes starts pointing up). It's not necessarily more efficient, just the body switching to different muscle groups to help save tired muscle groups from injury.

I've read that tour riders probably from Steve Hogg or another pro fitting article lower their saddle height as the tour progresses as they start pointing their heels down (toes up) from fatigue.

You'll notice Marco have down pointing toes pedaling style in his popular Giro video with chain dropping incident. His legs are probably fresh in that video compared to his race with Lance



Absolutely. Using your glutes in a greater degree during the power stroke will more strain on the core muscles.

I found that if the core muscles starts to hurt, simply disengage your glutes and hamstring from the pedal stroke and concentrate only using quads and calves (sitted) and your core muscles will recover.

A predominant quad and calf "driver" will seldom hurt their core even if their core is not very strong. Using the glutes+core with the quads and/or calves will allow you to push down on the pedals with a force higher than your own weight. Quite advantageous in some disciplines like track sprinting.
.

I tried to do that once for a while pointing the toes down and pulling thru, while I am just an amateur when it comes to riding , the thing I noticed that is that pedal stroke pulls you into the front of your saddle so bad that I couldn't get comfortable with any position. gave it an honest 6 months to try to get it to work
then it took a long time to get out of the habit and get comfortable in the saddle again.
don't know how those guys could do that at that level of out put

Carbonfiberboy 02-25-21 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by Tom L (Post 21941306)
I tried to do that once for a while pointing the toes down and pulling thru, while I am just an amateur when it comes to riding , the thing I noticed that is that pedal stroke pulls you into the front of your saddle so bad that I couldn't get comfortable with any position. gave it an honest 6 months to try to get it to work
then it took a long time to get out of the habit and get comfortable in the saddle again.
don't know how those guys could do that at that level of out put

If you want to know how to pedal seated, look at the video in post 25. At least one can aspire to that even if it's at half the watts. For pedaling standing, look at Pantani's form. That's where you're more forward and do pedal toes down, no weight on the bars, in fact pulling up lightly on the downstroke side. Too many people try to support their weight with their hands when standing, instead of pushing down on the pedals. I mean really, way to wimp out. That's how he got legs like that and see how quiet he is, doing that.


cubewheels 02-25-21 07:14 PM


Originally Posted by Tom L (Post 21941306)
I tried to do that once for a while pointing the toes down and pulling thru, while I am just an amateur when it comes to riding , the thing I noticed that is that pedal stroke pulls you into the front of your saddle so bad that I couldn't get comfortable with any position. gave it an honest 6 months to try to get it to work
then it took a long time to get out of the habit and get comfortable in the saddle again.
don't know how those guys could do that at that level of out put

Pointing your toes down in the power stroke will definitely push you forward. It's only useful when climbing up a mountain. But in the flats and downhills, you'll suffer. Avoid pointing your toes down too much on more flatter terrain.


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