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-   -   no sit ups for core? (https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/1221924-no-sit-ups-core.html)

CanadianBiker32 01-19-21 08:36 PM

no sit ups for core?
 
question can one get a decent strong corewithout doing situps or leg raises?

doing all other types of workouts for core?

as i get dizzy on situpsbut good on everything else

Carbonfiberboy 01-19-21 09:48 PM

Situps not good, leg raises good. I like these because they seem especially cycling-targeted. They hit the hip flexors and lower abs. Many variations on this theme.

wolfchild 01-20-21 05:15 AM

No sit ups, no leg raises, no abs specific training for me...I use kettlebell exercises to train my core.

rubiksoval 01-20-21 05:33 AM

I ride my bike and do other things outside. Keeps my core quite strong.

ARider2 01-20-21 06:35 AM

I do leg raises instead of sit ups because I feel it isolates the abdominal muscles better and it also strengthens the hip joints. It also does a good job of strengthening my core and it is easier on my back.

Greenhil 01-20-21 06:44 AM

Planks (ugh) or crunches, which in my experience don’t bring up the back issues that sit-ups do. I’ve found crunches with kettlebells work well.

Trakhak 01-20-21 06:51 AM

It may be possible that you can forgo situps and such and still do fine. I've been a strict cycling monoathlete for over 50 of my nearly 70 years. I've never done stretching, yoga, weights, running, etc., etc. The state of my neglected "core" (whatever that is) has never suffered as a consequence in any way that I can detect. The last time I saw a doctor, about 7 years ago or thereabouts, he told me that I'm healthier than 99.999 percent of people my age.

Based on my experience, I think that cycling (at least, doing 10 hours or more per week at ex-bike-racer training level) is more broadly beneficial than many people believe it to be. (I have wished at times that my arms weren't quite so pipe-stem-like, but not enough to do anything about it.)

cubewheels 01-20-21 10:10 AM

Pedaling while standing in big gears when climbing will workout your abs and generally your core strength.

The key is that you need to be pushing down on the pedals hard enough while standing that you're literally pulling on the handlebar with your hands.

Another good core strength training (targetting the lower back muscles) is climbing steep hills in big gears while hunkered down in an aero position on your bike while sitted.

Road Fan 02-19-21 09:29 AM

Hmm, I've noticed the same thing - in higher efforts where I pull on the bars, seated or standing, it's my abs that enable my connection to the bars to add to the force delivered by my legs, beyond the application of dead weight. I also think this would be a consequence of the "muscle tension workout" Carbonfiberboy talked about in a recent Polarized threads - 50/11, 50 rpm, for numerous minutes. A few years ago Mrs. Road Fan and I went out on "The Hills of Ann Arbor" route, and that pedaling technique got my lardy butt up the hills, but not in a gear anything like a 50/11!!! For my Trek at the time it was more like 39/34 on 700c wheels.

Hondo Gravel 02-19-21 11:23 AM

Trap bar deadlifts and dumbbell squats hits the core. No direct ab work. Hernia repair area doesn’t like it lol.

cubewheels 02-19-21 05:34 PM

Pros do some kind of situp where they seem to be rolling on their back and glutes, maintaining a semi-circle body posture.

One leg steps, leaned forward (back concave) with or without weights is the only core and leg strength training I do. It works out both the core and leg strength. Quite effective in preventing injury to your back muscles and greatly improves comfort on the bike.

gregf83 02-19-21 07:01 PM

I think if I weighed 65kg and had an FTP of 375+W I'd need a stronger core but, sadly, my core has always been strong enough without supplemental exercise. I've had my legs get tired/sore or start panting while riding but don't recall my core ever getting fatigued or my back getting sore so I don't think extra exercises targeted at the core would help much.

cubewheels 02-20-21 04:52 AM


Originally Posted by Road Fan (Post 21931320)
Hmm, I've noticed the same thing - in higher efforts where I pull on the bars, seated or standing, it's my abs that enable my connection to the bars to add to the force delivered by my legs, beyond the application of dead weight. I also think this would be a consequence of the "muscle tension workout" Carbonfiberboy talked about in a recent Polarized threads - 50/11, 50 rpm, for numerous minutes. A few years ago Mrs. Road Fan and I went out on "The Hills of Ann Arbor" route, and that pedaling technique got my lardy butt up the hills, but not in a gear anything like a 50/11!!! For my Trek at the time it was more like 39/34 on 700c wheels.

I do 50/18 intervals up steep 11% gradients. Easily the hardest core workout I've experienced. Even harder than deadlifts and squats with 120 lb weights. Perhaps what makes the bike workout harder is the higher # of reps.

NOTE it needs proper warm up procedure - to avoid hurting your back! Warm up for at least 20 minutes with easier gears avoiding high intensity efforts, and then slowly raise the gear ratio to 50/11. Keep your back straight as much as you can.

It's a difficult workout session - You really don't need to do it unless you're planning on racing or riding up very steep climbs with an undergeared or heavily loaded bike or thinking of getting SS or fixie.

rubiksoval 02-20-21 06:36 AM


Originally Posted by gregf83 (Post 21932248)
I think if I weighed 65kg and had an FTP of 375+W I'd need a stronger core but, sadly, my core has always been strong enough without supplemental exercise. I've had my legs get tired/sore or start panting while riding but don't recall my core ever getting fatigued or my back getting sore so I don't think extra exercises targeted at the core would help much.

Exactly. It just isn't an issue unless there's actual pain or weakness. Not even at 6w/kg type of fitness.

And I'd surmise for the vast majority, doing actual riding that focuses on aerobic gains will improve performance significantly more than any amount of core work. You can get all of the extra body strength necessary for your riding simply by actually riding.

Carbonfiberboy 02-20-21 01:11 PM


Originally Posted by rubiksoval (Post 21932616)
Exactly. It just isn't an issue unless there's actual pain or weakness. Not even at 6w/kg type of fitness.

And I'd surmise for the vast majority, doing actual riding that focuses on aerobic gains will improve performance significantly more than any amount of core work. You can get all of the extra body strength necessary for your riding simply by actually riding.

That's certainly true. However, I think it's interesting to ride hard, see what's sore the next day, and maybe train those sore muscles on not-hard days. Then on hard days maybe I'll have more endurance. I don't see a rationale for not doing that other than lack of time and specificity is quicker. I've always been able to find both pain and weakness on long hard rides. If I don't, I'm not doing it right. I try to keep the memory of riding through that pain alive when I'm training.

For instance, I noticed that today my lats are sore after a tough roller workout yesterday. My lats?? They wouldn't be if gyms weren't closed and I was still doing lat work. Never had sore lats before just from riding my bike. I do have dumbbells and a bench. Maybe I'll add a couple sets of one-arm raises or pullovers. The best chest work I've found is breathing deep and hard for a long time, i.e. ride! My morning pushups are good for my triceps and having more comfortable arms. On group rides, I always see folks shaking out their arms. Huh. Must not train them, eh? Yeah, so train what hurts.

Those seated leg raises shown above did make my hip flexors stronger so that I was more comfortable on long endurance spins. I don't seem to need them anymore though - I guess I've corrected that imbalance.

Trakhak 02-20-21 01:49 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 21933123)
That's certainly true. However, I think it's interesting to ride hard, see what's sore the next day, and maybe train those sore muscles on not-hard days. Then on hard days maybe I'll have more endurance. I don't see a rationale for not doing that other than lack of time and specificity is quicker. I've always been able to find both pain and weakness on long hard rides. If I don't, I'm not doing it right. I try to keep the memory of riding through that pain alive when I'm training.

That's certainly one approach. Another approach (mine) is to ride hard, see what's sore the next day, and then do whatever rides I would have done anyway for the next few rides. Surprise! The soreness goes away. (Same thing for colds and flu---I just stay home and wait it out. Although I might still have some aspirin around somewhere. Expired by now, no doubt.)

Our different approaches clearly work for each of us. Mine probably reflects my having started bike racing in Connecticut in the mid-'60s. Back then, the only coaches I ever encountered were track-and-field and football guys. The state of the art at the time was telling players to train their bodies to do without water on long runs while taking salt tablets to replenish what had been sweated out. No bike coaching, obviously. Of the very few people who were racing bikes in New Haven back then (and I knew all 10 or 12 of them), the only guys who seemed to know what they were doing were racing for Yale. (Several of those were ex-military graduate students sharing a couple of dorm rooms and learning Mandarin. I wonder what that was about.)

rubiksoval 02-20-21 03:37 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 21933123)
That's certainly true. However, I think it's interesting to ride hard, see what's sore the next day, and maybe train those sore muscles on not-hard days. Then on hard days maybe I'll have more endurance. I don't see a rationale for not doing that other than lack of time and specificity is quicker. I've always been able to find both pain and weakness on long hard rides. If I don't, I'm not doing it right. I try to keep the memory of riding through that pain alive when I'm training.
.

That's interesting. I don't really get sore after rides anymore. I get deep-down fatigue, and I get to the point where my legs feel like blocks of wood, but nothing like the DOMS I get if I were to go sprint down the street or go hiking or carry a bunch of stuff around all day (things I'm not used to).

But even when I first started riding, I can't ever in my life think of a time when my core was sore. Not even in mountain biking. Hands would be sore, and whatever body part hit a tree or something, but nothing in my torso.

rubiksoval 02-20-21 03:40 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 21933123)
Those seated leg raises shown above did make my hip flexors stronger so that I was more comfortable on long endurance spins. I don't seem to need them anymore though - I guess I've corrected that imbalance.

Next time just try some powercranks. :thumb:

gregf83 02-20-21 07:20 PM

I think if you're able to ride year round your core will adapt to what it needs to. For the past 13 yrs I've been pretty consistent at 500-600 hrs/yr with at most a couple weeks off for various reasons. I used to get a tired/sore back at the start of Ice Hockey season but that was because there was a sharp transition from no skating to playing a couple times a week. If you don't cycle or cycle significantly less in the winter then perhaps you might get a sore back when ramping up but I don't see it happening if you ride steadily during the year.

Carbonfiberboy 02-20-21 07:32 PM


Originally Posted by rubiksoval (Post 21933250)
That's interesting. I don't really get sore after rides anymore. I get deep-down fatigue, and I get to the point where my legs feel like blocks of wood, but nothing like the DOMS I get if I were to go sprint down the street or go hiking or carry a bunch of stuff around all day (things I'm not used to).

But even when I first started riding, I can't ever in my life think of a time when my core was sore. Not even in mountain biking. Hands would be sore, and whatever body part hit a tree or something, but nothing in my torso.

I'm trying to remember that far back . ..:) I do distinctly remember in my teens and early 20s going on ski vacations and only being sore the first three days, then not again the rest of the season. I didn't start bike training until I was 50, but I must have started hitting the gym in my late 50s for some reason, probably trying not to get dropped on every hill or maybe not cramping anymore when chasing the fast boys up the zillionth hill of the day. Worked though.

I've been riding almost every day since mid-September but I was starting from about zero after not riding all summer due to saddle sore caused sciatica. So every week is a little harder except for easy weeks and also a little different. My legs and lats are a little sore today because yesterday was my 2nd attempt at an hour of power. Legs and HR were OK but I couldn't get my breathing regulated. I was breathing too much and hyperventilated before I even got to 30'.

Core: I agree except for now my back gets sore, which might be because of no gym + age. Riding makes it less sore, so that's good. I've never done these long roller rides before - I used to never ride them for more than an hour. But like they say, rollers make you smooth because there's no bike momentum like on the road. One has to supply pedal force all the way around the circle, so my hip flexors took a while to get conditioned to 2 hours of that.

I probably wouldn't notice Powercranks, I'm already there. Way back when, there was that rider who did extensive Powercrank testing and found they didn't do anything. His article was used by Powercrank opponents to poo-poo them. I don't think anyone noticed that the reason they didn't help this rider was because he had already been pedaling as though he were using them for a long time. So there's that. On long rides, I work hard at pedaling with a force just below the pain threshold. The way to do that is to never contract any one muscle all that much, yet still get up the road at 18. So reducing peak pedal force is a big deal. I've been working on that for a long time.

The kinda crazy thing is that I was by far the best sprinter in our group of 100 or so riders, even though I was 10 years older than most of them. I tried to coach a couple of them who wanted to get faster on hill sprints, but they couldn't pull up hard enough, while I could lift the back wheel off the road if I wasn't careful. I still don't really understand. It seems like one could just push down harder, but maybe most road cyclists don't have the quad strength to equal pushing down and pulling up at the same time?

cubewheels 02-20-21 07:38 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 21933123)
For instance, I noticed that today my lats are sore after a tough roller workout yesterday. My lats?? They wouldn't be if gyms weren't closed and I was still doing lat work. Never had sore lats before just from riding my bike. I do have dumbbells and a bench. Maybe I'll add a couple sets of one-arm raises or pullovers. The best chest work I've found is breathing deep and hard for a long time, i.e. ride! My morning pushups are good for my triceps and having more comfortable arms. On group rides, I always see folks shaking out their arms. Huh. Must not train them, eh? Yeah, so train what hurts.

I spent good six months since returning to cycling without doing any strength training. But my legs got stronger faster than my core and my core started hurting as I progressed to higher power output.

I have quite sedentary lifestyle prior to cycling. Sitted in front of the computer day and night, poor posture, no seasonal activities. My legs got a bit of exercise but not the core. So it's not surprising my core strength is total crap prior to cycling.

I hit a wall in performance in the 6th month of training. I only have two choices, quit cycling or do something different. I took a gamble with strength training and glad I did.

Perhaps, quite many riders don't ever need strength training off the bike due to lifestyle and environment. But I certainly do need them. I didn't offset endurance training for strength training though, I simply raised my daily training time, learned to be creative mixing work with workout to free lots of time for core and strength training and also added short HIIT sessions.

The most important thing is I'm no longer hurting my back and my overall performance did improve a little bit. My top end power improving quite dramatically.

Strength training shouldn't deteriorate your bike endurance as long you're not putting less time in endurance training and not gaining weight. There's really no need to gain weight with strength training. My thighs aren't visibly bigger and so did the rest of my body despite almost doubling the maximum force I can push with one leg with free weights

Carbonfiberboy 02-20-21 07:39 PM


Originally Posted by Trakhak (Post 21933161)
That's certainly one approach. Another approach (mine) is to ride hard, see what's sore the next day, and then do whatever rides I would have done anyway for the next few rides. Surprise! The soreness goes away. (Same thing for colds and flu---I just stay home and wait it out. Although I might still have some aspirin around somewhere. Expired by now, no doubt.)

Our different approaches clearly work for each of us. Mine probably reflects my having started bike racing in Connecticut in the mid-'60s. Back then, the only coaches I ever encountered were track-and-field and football guys. The state of the art at the time was telling players to train their bodies to do without water on long runs while taking salt tablets to replenish what had been sweated out. No bike coaching, obviously. Of the very few people who were racing bikes in New Haven back then (and I knew all 10 or 12 of them), the only guys who seemed to know what they were doing were racing for Yale. (Several of those were ex-military graduate students sharing a couple of dorm rooms and learning Mandarin. I wonder what that was about.)

I remember those days when we were forbidden to drink during a game. Gave you cramps, dontcha know?

The students learning Mandarin were heading for one of the intelligence paths. I can still speak a little Czech from back when "they" had 300 tank divisions just a few days march from the Rhine. Not the Czechs of course, that endlessly conquered country. Gives one humility and a dark sense of humor.

Toespeas 02-20-21 11:16 PM

there are more than enough videos on youtube to gather a routine from !

rubiksoval 02-21-21 05:14 AM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 21933507)
I probably wouldn't notice Powercranks, I'm already there. Way back when, there was that rider who did extensive Powercrank testing and found they didn't do anything. His article was used by Powercrank opponents to poo-poo them. I don't think anyone noticed that the reason they didn't help this rider was because he had already been pedaling as though he were using them for a long time. So there's that. On long rides, I work hard at pedaling with a force just below the pain threshold. The way to do that is to never contract any one muscle all that much, yet still get up the road at 18. So reducing peak pedal force is a big deal. I've been working on that for a long time.

You definitely notice powercranks. Using the computrainer scantron things, I always had a very good pedal stroke, but I couldn't use them more than 3 minutes consecutively the first couple of rides.

They are "poo-pooed" because the claims made for them are absolutely ludicrous, and at the end of the day the only thing they make you better at are riding powercranks. They're just an absolute gimmick and completely pointless. Only good thing about them was that I was able to sell mine for $!50 more than I bought them!

But as with everything, what's old is now new. https://bikerumor.com/2021/02/15/spo...independently/

Carbonfiberboy 02-21-21 12:22 PM


Originally Posted by rubiksoval (Post 21933844)
You definitely notice powercranks. Using the computrainer scantron things, I always had a very good pedal stroke, but I couldn't use them more than 3 minutes consecutively the first couple of rides.

They are "poo-pooed" because the claims made for them are absolutely ludicrous, and at the end of the day the only thing they make you better at are riding powercranks. They're just an absolute gimmick and completely pointless. Only good thing about them was that I was able to sell mine for $!50 more than I bought them!

But as with everything, what's old is now new. https://bikerumor.com/2021/02/15/spo...independently/

You're probably right. I can feel my heelcups and shoe uppers on the upstroke, but that's not lifting the weight of a powercrank, just my leg. I don't think I'd do better if I lifted any harder - or I would. The weird thing to me is that they still ebay for $300-$700. Lot of money for worthless junk . . .I'd try a set for $100.

But you did OK on them eventually? Except that they didn't improve your power or endurance?

What's that scantron? It doesn't google. My wife has a computtrainer, older model, but no electronics attached other than its head unit. I always wanted to see a polar graph of my pedaling.

Have a look at this, 2:06-2:13. I've been fascinated by the identical pedaling of these riders. They both lift the toe on the backstroke. I've tried and tried to do that at high power, and I just can't for more than a few strokes, though it's obviously better to enter the power stroke early, 11:00, with the toe well up. Comment please?

Yeah, that kind of thing engages the core alright.


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