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Nandrolone

Old 06-15-21, 03:06 PM
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CliffordK
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Nandrolone

This popped up under politics, but seems to be a topic that fits better either here, or under "Professional Cycling".

Runner says tainted burrito led to test for banned substance



Houlihan made a list of all the food she ate leading up to a Dec. 15 test that produced the adverse analytical finding for the anabolic steroid.

“We concluded that the most likely explanation was a burrito purchased and consumed approximately 10 hours before that drug test from an authentic Mexican food truck that serves pig offal near my house in Beaverton, Oregon,” Houlihan wrote. “I notified the AIU that I believed this was the source."
... the anabolic steroid nandrolone. She said she's since learned it has “long been understood by WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) that eating pork can lead to a false positive for nandrolone, since certain types of pigs produce it naturally in high amounts. Pig organ meat (offal) has the highest levels of nandrolone.”

Drugs In Sport: Nandrolone may be in food chain



Apparently an old article from September 1999.

The sprinters Linford Christie, Dougie Walker and Gary Cadogan have all recently been cleared of drug abuse by their national governing body, UK Athletics, despite having tested positive for nandrolone.

AIU rejects pork fat defence for nandrolone AAF



James Kibet has been sanctioned with a four year ban... Studies suggest that pork fat can contain significant quantities of nandrolone, and the Kenyan said he had ingested pork fat syrup up to three times a day whilst in Italy for the Corsa dei Santi 10km race, where he returned his AAF on 1 November 2019.

Kibet had ingested pork fat and used it as a body lotion, which he argued is a medicinal custom in his home country of Uganda.
That sounds like A LOT OF PORK FAT

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Old 06-16-21, 08:02 AM
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I used to be on the board of my provincial affiliate for powerlifting. As a result, we got notified of all the positive tests that came through (they all end up being public record anyway) plus had to be involved in a bunch of info sessions regarding drug policy etc. Someone who had been in the sport for several decades in an administrative role said the following to me:
"They always have a crazy excuse and they are always guilty".

As an aside, it's amazing how many people will cheat in a sport where there is no fame or fortune available, no one cares about your results except you and there is a separate league without drug testing available.
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Old 06-16-21, 11:03 AM
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I've really got to cut back on the pork offal.
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Old 06-16-21, 01:26 PM
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i like bacon. glad i don't compete in anything.
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Old 06-16-21, 02:02 PM
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These cases have to be complex.

Are there athletes that choose to eat Rocky Mountain Oysters for breakfast, lunch, & dinner, as well as a few power snacks?

I suppose if I was an Olympic athlete, I'd be very careful about food intake. But, not being an athlete, I wouldn't think twice about having a burrito from a local food truck. "Authentic Mexican".... well, sure. I had a unique dining experience at a Mexican restaurant on an Indian Reservation up near Yakima, Washington. Likely with some benefits of being away from government oversight. Wonderful little place!!

It is possible there is intentional dosing of the competition at times, but likely rare.

If one can track down the burrito meat, one may not have the exact batch, but one could test it in general. If it has the steroids or precursors (natural?), then one could do a controlled 24 hour metabolism study... similar to what was supposed to have been done with Chris Froome.
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Old 06-16-21, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
As an aside, it's amazing how many people will cheat in a sport where there is no fame or fortune available, no one cares about your results except you and there is a separate league without drug testing available.
A good friend, a runner, says cheating in marathons is rampant. People cut out the middle and pretend to have finished. They get absolutely nothing for it.
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Old 06-17-21, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
A good friend, a runner, says cheating in marathons is rampant. People cut out the middle and pretend to have finished. They get absolutely nothing for it.

Running half marathons?

I will admit that my last marathon I ran (many moons ago), my body just cut out in the middle.

Heading north in West Portland was OK. Not fast, but OK. Then heading back down south in East Portland and I just couldn't get the legs to move. A little juice to cross the finish line, but that was about it. Still, I got around the whole 26.2 mile course. Beating most of the walkers, and the walkers that passed me weren't walking.

For me, there was nothing more brutal than a marathon at a snail's pace. Plus, of course, about a 6 mile bike commute each way.
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Old 06-17-21, 01:44 AM
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@Seattle Forrest,
Thinking of cheating in sports, it is pervasive in society.

I remember kids as young as gradeschool were cheating in sports. A person clearly out playing baseball, and there was a lot of pressure for kids to call the play for their own team, not for what happened.

Dodgeball, are you hit if the ball just grazes you?

And, of course, we just got rid of a president that tried to cheat with everything in life, and half the USA loved him for it.
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Old 06-17-21, 02:37 AM
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(Oops, 'scuse the excessive length. I thought I was posting the edited version half this length. Apparently I posted the rough draft with redundant paragraphs. Oh, well, nobody is gonna read this whole thing anyway.)

I've read several stories this week about her case. I sympathize but I don't believe any experienced athlete who's competed at that level doesn't know the risks associated with eating organ meats from unknown sources. If your curated news feed includes sports, at least once a week you'll see similar reports of athletes who failed a doping test because of something they ate.

Protip: The whole reason some of us eat organ meats, especially from outside the US, is *for* the concentrated hormones and heme iron. Ditto weird herbal supplements that smell like feet.

Several athletes of all ages have used the same excuse: "I didn't know there were hormones in the Mexican wild boar, beef liver, pork organs, etc , that I ate just before competition."

Yeah, no. We know what's in it. To paraphrase Lone Watie from The Outlaw Josey Wales, we're looking for an edge.

That includes boxers Tyson Fury (wild boar) and Saul "Canelo" Alvarez (Mexican pork or beef, I forget), both in their primes, both gigged for PEDs, both used the food excuse. And both were permitted to continue competing anyway, maybe after a short suspension, because there's a buttload of money in pro boxing and nobody wants to miss their cut. If you've followed boxing as long as I have you learn pretty quickly that almost every elite level pro dopes, and the only reason some are penalized is because they aren't well liked and don't generate enough money for the officials to look the other way. James Toney is among the very few boxers who had any significant penalties for doping, and that's because Toney is an unrepentant trash talker with the talent to back it up in his prime. He didn't make many friends in the sport, didn't win enough high profile big money bouts to make it easier to overlook his abrasive personality. Compare that with Evander Holyfield, a known doper, who was a big money maker for promoters, a fan favorite, and a likeable guy -- who got his butt handed to him by James Toney. But Holyfield never suffered any serious consequences for doping. But you can bet that every top ten boxer over age 30 who has grown from, say, flyweight to middleweight as an adult, and still competes at the highest level is doped to the gills -- and every official is bribed to the gills to overlook it.

Several athletes, men and women, over age 60 have been gigged for failing doping tests. Even when the competition didn't amount to much in recognition and compensation. Y'know why? Because getting old sucks.

Or, in my case, just trying to regain the energy for a casual bike ride. Screw that noise about wisdom and growing old graciously. Save it for fairy tales.

After my thyroid failed and surgery for thyroid cancer, my iron, hemoglobin, hematocrit, vitamin D, calcium and testosterone levels tanked. For a few months in 2018 I barely had the energy to walk, let alone bike or run. I literally fell down a couple of times that year when I was too weak to stand to pee.

But my doctors weren't interested in complaints about anything that affected quality of life. They shrugged off anything that couldn't be measured in lab tests. If the numbers were good, heck, I must be lying about feeling like old fly covered meadow muffins. I've read my medical reports online. Invariably the doctors and nurses condense my reports of declining fitness -- backed up by data in activity apps -- to "fatigue."

This is why more ambitious athletes wind up seeing "sports medicine" specialists and sketchy doctors who are willing to prescribe HGH, etc. It's not simply that your family doctor and conventional specialists won't authorize tests or treatments related to complaints of unusual fatigue, weakness, etc. They don't even listen. It simply doesn't register with them.

I sort of understand. I'm only 63, but most of the veterans my age I see at the VA are in wheelchairs and walkers, obese, with all kinds of health problems related to diet, lack of exercise, excessive smoking and drinking. I suppose after seeing enough of those guys, the doctors and nurses look at me and think there's nothing wrong, nothing to complain about.

So I chose my own supplements that were readily available legally without prescriptions or resorting to the dark web.

Also, we can legit claim later "we didn't know" that beef liver, wild boar, burrito made from pork organ meats, etc, were full of nandrolone metabolites. Because if you can't trust your neighborhood taco truck dealer, who can you trust? Why do you think I buy beef liver from Fiesta instead of Kroger? (Tastes better too.)

Of course we know. That info is all over the web. If our daily curated news feed includes sports, hardly a week goes by without a report of an athlete who was gigged for PEDs that were supposedly linked to our diets.

I also take beta ecdysterone from plant sources. It's in spinach and other greens, some root vegetables, and the exoskeletons of some shellfish, insects and true bugs. It's a marginal gains type thing which some athletic organizations are considering regulating or banning, but for now it's legal and unregulated. TBH, it doesn't really do much.

The problem? Orally consumed steroids don't really work. Mostly they just get detected in PED tests without conferring super powers.

I eat this stuff often. All it does is just barely get me moving again. It ain't Popeye's magic spinach. Neither is the Albuterol I take for asthma. It barely works as an asthma inhaler, let alone a PED.

On the plus side, I don't need to worry about growing man-boobs, developing premature osteoporosis, or suddenly thinking I should run for governor, from injecting anabolic steroids.

I feel bad for Shelby Houlihan. She might not have known the risk. There's no indication of any previous PED infractions. And maybe the sports regulatory agencies need better standards and testing. WADA and UCI have gotten it wrong before, notably with Chris Froome.

And FWIW, I don't compete at any level anymore and don't plan to. Even with the dietary tricks I try, nobody's KOMs are in danger. I haven't managed a top ten on any worthwhile segment since 2017, before my thyroid cancer and injuries from being hit by a car in 2018. The stuff I do -- deliberately eating organ meats, OTC supplements, etc. -- merely gets me up and going. I'm no longer even in the top ten of local guys my age and had to quit fast group rides about a year ago. I got tired of folks waiting for me at every regroup point after I got dropped. My best solo ride on a 20 mile tough roller coaster route last year was 18 mph. This year I can barely average 14 mph on the same route. In March my fastest 5k was 27 minutes. I haven't been able to reproduce that since.

Yeah, I understand the urge to try something, anything, to get stronger or retain our old fitness. But while stuffing ourselves with organ meats that have a little extra nandrolone might be measurable in a test, it won't necessarily confer any superpowers.

=AT2yl43YaXhw76aKd6J8IWaXYRrebfrPUPqwOe9h0KcxeFhaAjVd96eq7VaQJ05VnbSdDf4bk1pYWAGs1yPcXnDHWiYU-aKklhW79WllMwLvCGLXjhkJoqa0QgyUvuHWOxtvgSEP41H8bbq_7rlTxofMpQQ]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10861987/

Last edited by canklecat; 06-17-21 at 04:19 PM. Reason: edit
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Old 06-17-21, 03:12 AM
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@canklecat, do you really read all the ingredients of the foods you consume? Foods in an open air market? Before a couple of days ago, I wouldn't have even known what "offal" was.

I suppose if a person has a personal trainer, then the trainer should be up on those things, but a trainer may not be monitoring one 24/7.

I've had chicken and turkey giblets. Some of the best parts of the BBQ. I'm not sure about larger animals, but they might give a unique flavor to a meal.

I might have to hunt for the infamous Mexican food truck the next trip up north.
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Old 06-17-21, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
@canklecat, do you really read all the ingredients of the foods you consume? Foods in an open air market? Before a couple of days ago, I wouldn't have even known what "offal" was.
Believe it or not, yeah. Even as a kid I'd read everything on the cereal box. I usually prefer to grocery shop alone so I can take my time reading the ingredients and Googling for more info before buying new products. Drove my last ex-wife crazy.

I don't care for some organ meats -- I've never developed a taste for the flavor and texture of kidneys and hearts. I'll eat it, but I don't really care for it. But I actually enjoy liver and have liver and onions a few times a month.

If you're curious about trying other meats try any store that carries authentic ethnic foods. Locally Kroger and most mainstream grocers barely carry US chicken and beef liver, and rarely carry any other organ meats. The closest Kroger gets to exotic meat is one brand of bison jerky.

So I shop at Fiesta and smaller Mexican food markets, or those that specialize in Vietnamese, Thai and Asian foods. That doesn't necessarily mean the meats come from livestock treated with hormones, but some pork, wild boar, etc., are known to contain higher concentrations of nandrolone.

And there's an authentic Mexican market with a grill across the street if I'm in the mood for a carne de mysterio dish.
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Old 06-17-21, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
A good friend, a runner, says cheating in marathons is rampant. People cut out the middle and pretend to have finished. They get absolutely nothing for it.
I would completely believe this. Some people seem completely satisfied with a "win" even though they know it's tainted. I don't get it, and it really speaks poorly to humanity as a whole, but I've seen it happen too often to be able to believe otherwise.
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Old 06-17-21, 08:45 AM
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It's the old, "If ya ain't cheaten, ya ain't winnen" mentality. Nothing new.
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Old 06-17-21, 11:12 AM
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If you just read the story it's so easy to say this is just another guilty athlete with some lame excuse; when I first read about it, it reminded me of when Contador said he ate tainted meat. However, looking into this a little more, I'm willing to be more open minded, but it's hard, because it's like when a convict says, "...but I'm innocent" -- they all say that.

Then again, there are plenty of people who have been convicted of crimes, only to find out they were actually innocent, thanks in large part on the science of DNA analysis.

But you have to admit, the headlines do not look good, when they read:

An Olympian, a Failed Drug Test and an Accused Burrito - WSJ



.
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Old 06-17-21, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
If you just read the story it's so easy to say this is just another guilty athlete with some lame excuse; when I first read about it, it reminded me of when Contador said he ate tainted meat. However, looking into this a little more, I'm willing to be more open minded, but it's hard, because it's like when a convict says, "...but I'm innocent" -- they all say that.
Wikipedia as good summary of the arguments against Contador

One difference between the two cases is that clenbuterol is a synthetic that is illegal in livestock. And, apparently quite rare in meat samples.

Nandrolone, on the other hand, is a natural substance found in food substances. Of course also making it a better excuse when caught.

The Wikipedia article gives an interesting theory about Contador's results. He could have been doping with clenbuterol during training. Had blood draws. Stopped using clenbuterol prior to races when testing would be likely, but then re-injected himself with his own tainted blood (which would have been equally illegal).
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Old 06-17-21, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
@canklecat, do you really read all the ingredients of the foods you consume? Foods in an open air market? Before a couple of days ago, I wouldn't have even known what "offal" was.
Offal just sounds disgusting. I don't know what makes the word itself so gross. I know if you google "my favorite word is" you'll see people who love to read love words and their favorite is the flavor of the week, but certain words make their skin crawl and that isn't a temporary thing. (A lot of people hate the word moist.)

I think it's an important distinction between a criminal trial where you have to prove the accused intended to do wrong, vs a sporting competition where everybody faces off on a level playing field. Having a strong and unfair advantage can disqualify a performance even if the contestant didn't know what was going on. If somebody installs a motor in my bike the night before a race, even if I had no idea is still unfair to everybody who went up against me.
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Old 06-17-21, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post

Running half marathons?
​​​​​​Mary said on her most recent marathon an older lady crossed the finish line 20 minutes sooner than she did, but never passed her during the race. She asked the lady "when did you pass me?" and got a very defensive answer.
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Old 06-17-21, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Offal just sounds disgusting. I don't know what makes the word itself so gross. I know if you google "my favorite word is" you'll see people who love to read love words and their favorite is the flavor of the week, but certain words make their skin crawl and that isn't a temporary thing. (A lot of people hate the word moist.)
I'd be curious if they've tested wieners.

They don't throw the choice cuts into the concoctions.
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Old 06-17-21, 04:18 PM
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FWIW, I've never called organ meats "offal" even though that's one definition of the word. I just call them organ meats, sweetbreads, whatever. I use "offal" to describe the offspring of corrupt politicians and insufferable celebrities who are famous for being famous.
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Old 06-21-21, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Believe it or not, yeah. Even as a kid I'd read everything on the cereal box. I usually prefer to grocery shop alone so I can take my time reading the ingredients and Googling for more info before buying new products. Drove my last ex-wife crazy.

I don't care for some organ meats -- I've never developed a taste for the flavor and texture of kidneys and hearts. I'll eat it, but I don't really care for it. But I actually enjoy liver and have liver and onions a few times a month.

If you're curious about trying other meats try any store that carries authentic ethnic foods. Locally Kroger and most mainstream grocers barely carry US chicken and beef liver, and rarely carry any other organ meats. The closest Kroger gets to exotic meat is one brand of bison jerky.

So I shop at Fiesta and smaller Mexican food markets, or those that specialize in Vietnamese, Thai and Asian foods. That doesn't necessarily mean the meats come from livestock treated with hormones, but some pork, wild boar, etc., are known to contain higher concentrations of nandrolone.

And there's an authentic Mexican market with a grill across the street if I'm in the mood for a carne de mysterio dish.
If you like liver and onions try liver and apples.
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Old 06-21-21, 02:39 PM
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Shelby Houlihan had tried to get into the US Olympic trials while her case was being appealed, but ultimately was rejected in the last minute.

There is also ambiguity on the fateful meal.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2021/06...field-tragedy/

“She actually ordered a carne asada burrito [the night before the test],” Greene says. “But based on what she ate, it was very, very greasy. The description of the others who actually ate with her was the same. We don’t know what she was given. But we know that the truck had pork offal in two of the eight burritos they were serving…When we hired the investigator, the carne asada burrito that she typically ordered was extremely dry, no grease at all. And the two [types of] burritos [that] had the offal, they both were very, very greasy.”
I'm sure I could recognize the difference between beef, and something very much not beefy, especially if it was something I frequently ordered. Yet, personally, I'll also eat just about anything put in front of me. However, I'm also not on the lookout for food additives that could spoil my Olympic chances... forever.
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Old 06-21-21, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by locolobo13 View Post
If you like liver and onions try liver and apples.
Last night I added jussst barely sautéed onions, sweet red peppers and fresh cilantro. Very tasty.
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Old 06-21-21, 09:08 PM
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Considering that transgender women can compete with testosterone levels up to 10 nmol/L, and the usual range for cisgender women is less than 3 nmol/L, women like Shelby Houlihan should be exempted from these regulations until their hormone levels reach the same level as trans athletes. Which will never happen from just eating pork offal burritos or wild boar liver.

TBH, I'd rather see zero regulation of PEDs for professional athletes. They know what they're doing. Let them choose. Bringing it into the open is more likely to create safer PEDs. While I'd support continued bans on PEDs for amateur athletes, the current international competition paradigm makes a mess of the distinctions between pros and amateurs. Boxers must never have competed as pros to qualify for the top tier amateur boxing competitions (although it's easy to skirt those regulations by changing names and moving around the country), but nowadays pros or quasi-pros dominate many other sports.

But we won't see any sensible compromise on this issue until a cisgender woman boxer or MMA athlete is serious injured or killed in the ring by a trans athlete. It took many ring deaths before some boxing reforms were enacted, and even those reforms were of questionable value. I'm not a fan of the 8-count, which only enables the fighter just enough recovery time to get into trouble again at the risk of serious injury or death. If the fighter lacks the presence of mind to take a knee until his/her head clears, and isn't recovered enough before the 10 count to continue, the fight should be stopped, not merely delayed by multiple 8-counts.

None of which will apply to track and field athletes or most non-contact sports. Cisgender women will feel more and more pressure to seek PEDs in any form available to be competitive and retain sponsors and team support.
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Old 06-21-21, 09:42 PM
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With the "Passports", I don't know how many tests Shelby Houlihan has had done. Potentially in the hundreds, although mostly associated with track meets. And, only 1 was "suspicious".

What cycling is supposed to be doing is random testing, although I don't know how many of those are done. But, try to do a random test of most star athletes in the middle of any off season, or between major meets which would potentially pick up training aid drugs. I presume the major use of steroids is bulking muscles, and thus not a race day performance aid (so some athletes will use a washout period.

A single adverse finding of a natural food borne steroid should prompt a review, and perhaps greater scrutiny. Buy urine cups in bulk with the requirement to return 3 of them a week... forever as long as she is still competitive. And, she should be warned to keep away from those pork burritos.
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Old 06-21-21, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
...I presume the major use of steroids is bulking muscles, and thus not a race day performance aid (so some athletes will use a washout period...
That's what I used to assume. And there is some use of steroids and other PEDs for bulking up in some sports. It's been pretty common in pro boxing for years. That's the only reasonable explanation for guys like Manny Pacquiao, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather Jr., and others, managing to go from featherweight or lighter, all the way up to a well muscled light middleweight limit, without simply being flabby and soft. I've followed boxing for decades and before the era of highly sophisticated combination of PEDs and training adapted to PED use, boxers rarely were as successful going up in weight. Even the all time great lightweight champion Roberto Duran often looked soft and flabby even at welterweight, let alone light middle and heavier. He managed to win often at higher weights simply because he was so good.

According to boxing insiders, most careful fighters train with PEDs, then taper off and flush or use other methods (including bribing officials) to pass whatever tests might be administered. They were able to train at superhuman levels, which carries over to the actual bout. There are visible indicators of this practice if you study photos of some boxers during training. In particular Pacquiao would develop the telltale enlarged face, out of proportion to the rest of his body, midway through training. Later, after tapering, his face would resume proportions comparable to the rest of his body weight. It's possible Pacquaio had a legitimate need for prednisone to control inflammation from injuries suffered in training. But trainers and athletes are reluctant to discuss these specifics. We do know that, when preparing to fight Mayweather, Pacquiao was denied permission for an anti-inflammatory injection to treat a shoulder injury. (I'm trying to avoid the "moon face" description associated notably with extended use of prednisone by patients for chronic inflammation, because that term is also associated with anti-Asian racism.)

But over the past decade I've read anecdotes from many athletes who got busted for doping in sports where bulking up is *not* a benefit. The cyclists, track athletes, triathlon competitors, etc., say the advantage is quicker recovery. They can train harder, more often.

And during competitions they can recover virtually overnight from exertion that, without PEDs, might take days or an entire week to recover naturally. One well known example is Floyd Landis, who suffered a meltdown on Stage 16 of the 2006 Tour de France, yet miraculously recovered to dominate the Stage 17 mountain stage. That's how powerful testosterone boosters can be.

Athletes still need natural abilities, good training and a serious work ethic to benefit from PEDs. But there's no doubt that careful use of PEDs offer benefits during training and, in some cases, during competitions for quicker recovery, without bulking up or gaining better muscular definition.

More recently these same techniques have been used by actors to bulk up and gain muscle definition, notably for the Marvel and DC comic movie adaptations, and other roles. There are a few YouTube channels produced by trainers with insider knowledge discussing how actors in their 40s and 50s manage to achieve fitness levels comparable to 20somethings.
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