Carbonfiberboy 

Read Thirst. https://www.amazon.com/Thirst-2600-M...dp/B07MXNHSLY/
My wife and I read it to each other during our 10-day backpack this past September.

There's also this: The section I'm referring to starts at 24 minutes.
These guys are talking about my exact on-bike nutrition program which I've followed for the past 20 years to so, except they still haven't figured out the exact per hour quantity: It's 50% of my per-hour kilojoules. The video did wake me up to the fact that I need to do the same thing on my short rides and indoor trainer sessions. I recover faster if I do. There's been a lot ink spilled about post-ride recovery drinks. I think if one does on-bike nutrition properly they aren't worthwhile until one gets up over 2000 kJ on a ride.

work4bike

It was kind of funny watching the section on cramps. I didn't know so many others experienced that excruciating pain associated with cramping. And I know exactly what he's talking about when you learn to quickly straighten the leg to prevent the cramping...I just don't have a kid to run get me any pickle juice

Gym123456

Any time.

But seriously- who hasn't heard someone say "I just can't lose weight"?

Bearhawker

Possibly the best-ever example of marketing becoming "general knowledge" or, even worse, "accepted science"

It comes from Grape Nuts cereal ads in 1944.

work4bike

That was me, before my AT hike (I mentioned in post #25 above). I thought I just couldn't lose weight, but I was also listening to all the conventional wisdom on how much one should eat, both during exercise and after exercise. That AT hike kicked my ass and taught me a very valuable lesson -- my most important lesson I learned on the AT.

MinnMan

Here's an interim report. Having entered this regime about a month ago, I'm sticking pretty closely to the 14/10 intermittent fast 5 days/week. I am not having any trouble sticking to the regimen, though I do find that by the time my appointed lunch hour arrives, i'm really looking forward to it.

I have not noticed any significant weight loss. Maybe 2 pounds. I'm not sure what that means, though. This time of year I'm generally diminishing both the intensity and total hours/week of cycling, and in normal years I tend to gain a few pounds through these winter months.

(Also, I stopped eating breakfast back in the spring, and this led to losing about 6 lbs. That was something like a 11/13 or 12/12 periodic fast and so the recent switch to 14/10 is perhaps a smaller change in habits.)

But my morning resting pulse has gone down from about 48-50 to 42-45. That's interesting.

Jeff Neese

A 14/10 eating schedule is just barely fasting. You don't start burning fat and running on ketones until about 12 hours after your last meal, so your fasting state isn't very long. Maybe try 16/8, and do it 7 days a week instead of only 5.

I've been doing IF on a 18/6 schedule (every day) for about 9 months. I lost 25 pounds and feel great. I also drink Sole water in the morning for the electrolytes and noticed a big difference in my ability to work out while in the fasting state.

GhostRider62

If the objective of IM is to enter a state of ketosis, 10 hours is not enough time or at least for me. I used to be a LCHF diet rider and monitored my ketones with a meter. It takes days to enter ketosis. Fat just melts off in that state and once you are used to it. Anyone who does a thru hike on the AT, knows this because they are always in a fat burning mode and it takes a couple weeks to get there. I suppose my diet now is constantly IM since dinner is at 5:30 pm and then I break fast at 8:30 am. Perhaps, IM is just a technique to avoid snacking after dinner?

MinnMan

Thanks, but as I wrote in the OP, that isn't my goal. The intermittent fast is something I began accidentally, with other goals. I'm just curious about how it will affect weight and things like blood sugar and have been posting about it.

If i do lose weight, it will be mostly because I no longer consume those evening calories, assuming I don't replace them in the middle of the day.

MinnMan

Congrats on the weight loss. I'm glad it works for you. But no thanks to your advice. My goals aren't your goals, as I think I have already made clear.

THere's no way am I going out for 4 hour Minnesota winter rides on weekend mornings without a good breakfast..

MinnMan

For me, I think this is accurate. I probably shouldn't call it IM. It's at least as much about self-discipline regarding when I allow myself to eat, with the consequent effect that overall I eat less.

Not quite 3 months in this regimen. I've lost about 7 pounds total and my BMI is around 21. If I were doing this to lose serious weight, that's not a particularly effective regime, but I was pretty light to begin with and I didn't have 20 pounds to lose in the first place

If I lose > 3-5 additional pounds, I'm going to need to start eating more. The goal wasn't to emulate Chris Froome's physique (his BMI is around 19).

I like feeling lighter on the bike, even though for winter riding, I'm not really riding too light- heavier cross bike, several pounds of winter clothing and boots, etc.

Carbonfiberboy 

Google "whey protein bedtime studies".

Erzulis Boat 

Good plan, as we all know that breakfast is the most important meal of the day.

MinnMan

I am guessing that you are being sarcastic, as we all know that that was just a Kellogg's marketing line that somehow became conventional wisdom..

No, not for that reason at all.

Gym123456

BTW- if anyone works out at a place like Anytime Fitness, DO NOT use their meal planner! I started going there and the site asked about my workouts, height/weight, age, etc. It would then calculate the daily food needs. Apparently, they thought everyone wanted to be a hulking monster because it was telling me that I needed to consume 3200+ calories/day in order to recover from my workouts. That completely ignores any desire to lose weight.

RH Clark

I've been IM fasting for nearly 3 years. It's a weight loss technique but I think the most important aspect of it is to get into Autophagy. When I started, I had a hard time going any amount of time without a meal. I was more than 100 lbs. overweight, and my blood sugar was like a rollercoaster. I gradually worked up to an 18-6 schedule. For 2 years I have been on 20-4 schedule, and only eating in a 4-hour window every day. The key to get into Autophagy is to consume absolutely zero calories during the fast period. Just some gum or mints can get you out of Autophagy. I encourage everyone to do some research on Autophagy. I like to call it aging backwards, and it truly has been life changing for me.

MinnMan

That's interesting. How do you know? Is there research that says this? My understanding is that research on autophagy in human subjects is pretty limited. Or is there some perception you have when you are in the supposed state?

Some autophagy happens whether you fast or not- for example, when you sleep. My understanding is that certain diets, exercise regimens, spices (supposedly tumeric), and fasting can increase it. So the concept of "to get into autophagy" is....hazy, I would have thought.

RH Clark

You are correct in that there are some grey areas. It seems that individuals vary considerably. A lot of factors enter in and not everyone will enter or exit Autophagy as easily. I preach the zero-calorie stipulation because it's the surest way to have the longest benefit. it's a subject only recently studied. The Nobel prize was awarded for Autophagy research in the last 5 years. The surest way is to do 24–48-hour fasts, but some benefit is gained by IM fasting depending on the individual and their current diet. It is very much worth studying.

MinnMan

Further update. I am still on this regimen - no food from between 8-9 PM to 11 AM, except on those weekend mornings when I'm going for a longish ride.

I haven't lost much additional weight following my post in January. Maybe a pound or two, but considering daily fluctuations, that's hard to measure.

BUT, I took an A1C test this week and it's down to 4.7. Previously, it was stubbornly stuck at 5.6 - just on the edge of pre-diabetes (my PCP called my condition "possibly very early pre-diabetes"). 4.7 is MUCH better. Prior to beginning the 14/10 intermittent fasting regime, I had spent more than a year trying to get my A1C down by making other dietary changes- notably greatly reducing my intake of carbohydrates at meals and dramatically reducing my heavy intake of white rice. Those changes hadn't affected my A1C, but the intermittent fasting has.

I don't think I'll lose much more weight doing this just now. However, usually I lose weight in the spring as my weekly hours of riding goes way up. If my orthopedic health allows and I put in a good spring of 1000-1200 mile months in May and June, I may get down another 5 pounds. That would give me a BMI of 20.5 and I have no particular desire to be any lower than that.

burritos

I've been doing one meal a day dray fast for 4 years. Last two years I've also been bike commuting 10 or 20 miles round trip depending on when I'm working. I do this 3-4 times a week. Went from 136ish to 130ish in the first month and when I started bike commuting I went to 131ish. I am enamored by the 'autophagy' phenomena. We know it happens, but as to how much it's happening, you can't really tell with blood work. Sure we see it in rate studies, but unless you're doing serial tissue biopsies in humans, hard to say, and it probably varies for individuals. I hope it's happening, cause I think optimizing wellspan requires the recycling of cellular debris and organelles.

Carbonfiberboy 

I'd never heard of autophagy before. Of course we all know it happens, and now it has a name! Autophagy refers to the body's disposing of dead cells. Nothing's wasted, after all. Most cells die naturally. All the cells in our bodies are replaced every 7-10 years like it or not. The dead guys get eaten. It probably is possible to intentionally kill cells in our bodies, like muscle cells. Muscle cells die anyway as we age, it's a natural process, sarcopenia, and there's nothing to be done about it. I work hard to culture my remaining muscle cells. They don't do well if they're worked hard and not fed afterwards.

Unlike muscle cells, I don't think one can kill a fat cell, nor do they die as we age. We have about the same number of fat cells in our bodies from childhood to death: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...t-in-adulthood
This is why it's so sad to see overfed, fat children. Their parents are building a life of disappointing health for them.

These two things are why it's so easy to get fat and weak as we age. I don't see anything positive in trying to kill our body's cells. I've seen enough people die of organ failure. Cells die soon enough on their own. Nor can or should we do anything about the natural process of disposing of the dead.

burritos

Yoshiniro Oshumi got the 2016 Nobel Prize in Science/medicine for identifying the autophagy. Not an expert here but have been reading about it over the last years. Autophagy is actually quite a broad term and be itemized in so many more categories. When the cell recycles cellular components/debris it can target specific things that would make the most complex recycling centers envious:
Mitophagy: recycling of mitochondria(bike or cardio a lot? this happens a lot)
aggregophagy: recycling of protein aggregates
ferritinophagy: recycling a iron wastes
crinophagy: recycling hormonal wastes
pexophagy: recycling of peroxisomes(where long chained fatty acids are processed either to energy or to membranes)
xenophagy: recycling of bacteria/viruses(fasting, biking=skipped bad case of covid)
ribophagy: recycling of ribosomes
ERphagy or reticulophagy: recycling of endoplasmic reticulum
lipophagy: recycling of lipids/fats
nucleophagy: recycling of discarded damaged DNA
there likely are more categories that I don't know of, but I find stuff fascinating.

Carbonfiberboy 

^You left out ectophagy: recycling of ectoplasmic residues.

MinnMan

This is worth reading

Effects of Intermittent Fasting on Health, Aging, and Disease N Engl J Med 2019; 381:2541-2551

You have to register with NEJM to get access, but it's free

Carbonfiberboy 

PDF is here: https://sa1s3.patientpop.com/assets/docs/151222.pdf