Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Inadvertently started intermittent fasting

Notices
Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Inadvertently started intermittent fasting

Old 03-12-22, 01:26 PM
  #51  
burritos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 236

Bikes: 2021 Polygon Siskiu D7, 2008 Lemond Tourmalet

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times in 54 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
^You left out ectophagy: recycling of ectoplasmic residues.

Woah there's clockophagy? Awesomeness.



Mitophagy!

lipophagy!

Pexophagy!

nucleophagy!

crinophagy!

Fast. And bike fasted all these things happen.(or anything zone 2 like swimming, walking, running, gardening, etc...).
burritos is offline  
Old 03-12-22, 10:38 PM
  #52  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,332

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3339 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 939 Posts
Originally Posted by burritos View Post
Fast. And bike fasted all these things happen.(or anything zone 2 like swimming, walking, running, gardening, etc...).
I dunno. I didn't major in mathematical biology, I just have 68 years of experience riding. I read the training studies and practice what I read. Today we went on a group ride on our tandem. I spent 45' in Z4 and 22' in Z5 on a 2:53 ride. Stoker and I both cramped on the last steep hill, just a few miles of flat from the finish. Another Perfect Ride™. Rode with the front group most of the way, all younger riders, and could not have gone any harder. Plus I skied 25,000' of vertical with 1 day off before today. That's how I train. Plus a lot of easier stuff of course, but that's the end product for March. By July, I should be able to do 10,000' century plus climbing rides on my single. Our tandem team age is 148. I don't think IF fits into that training plan. After a serious training session, it takes a good 20 hours of careful carb and protein dribbling to be able to so anything useful training-wise after a hard session.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 03-13-22, 06:29 AM
  #53  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,441
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1451 Post(s)
Liked 1,209 Times in 751 Posts
I did a lot of fasted rides and spent about 18 months in ketosis on a LCHF diet. My guess from experience is to be careful with high intensity work. The body gets good at making glycogen from fat, so, it isn't like you are always depleted. I know that with sufficient time and training, it becomes impossible to bonk.

mTORC1 and mTORC2 are interesting. I was in a weight loss catabolic state when I crashed last September breaking 10 bones. I was intermittently fasting. I had to decide what to do diet-wise while recovering. The research is conflicting WRT bone formation. I found that my resting heart rate increased from mid 50's to 85-90 BPM. I would wake multiple times every night drenched in sweat despite having no blanket on and the A/C set to 65F. I also was always hungry. I was concerned enough to see my Doc. He got his Medical degree in the military and did trauma work in war. He said it was normal and that I was probably burning 5500 calories a day healing. So, I decided to eat and supplement heavily. I also healed very, very fast for an old fart per all the Docs and PTs.

Now that I do need to lose weight and that the bones are healed (although the elbow still hurts), I am trying to figure an approach to weight loss. One that does not impair bone health or lose muscle. I am thinking of paying for Dexa Scans over the next 6 months. My training object is generally to get as low a VLa max as possible meaning I can ride at a pretty good clip burning a high percentage of fat. This takes a lot of riding time sub threshold. I know that these types of rides provoke profound changes in mitochondria and associated enzymes but is there a cost to one's bone health? That is my question that I have not been able to figure out. My SWAG is 2-4 hour Z1/Z2 rides while IF are ok but more intensity or duration could be a problem.

Mitochondria turn over every couple months. I am doing my training bassawkwards, starting with intensity now and then moving to lower intensity and longer distances. Why? I was able to do very short efforts and I felt maintaining max aerobic capacity is critical for me at my age. It will be interesting. I just can't decide whether to inject IF. I do not agree with those who say you can get into ketosis in 8-12 hours. My blood lactate meters used over the years says overwise. I am thinking of having Sunday family dinner and then long Z2 ride monday and Tuesday, breaking the fast at lunch Tuesday. Doing this weekly.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 03-13-22, 09:24 AM
  #54  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,332

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3339 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 939 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I did a lot of fasted rides and spent about 18 months in ketosis on a LCHF diet. My guess from experience is to be careful with high intensity work. The body gets good at making glycogen from fat, so, it isn't like you are always depleted. I know that with sufficient time and training, it becomes impossible to bonk.

mTORC1 and mTORC2 are interesting. I was in a weight loss catabolic state when I crashed last September breaking 10 bones. I was intermittently fasting. I had to decide what to do diet-wise while recovering. The research is conflicting WRT bone formation. I found that my resting heart rate increased from mid 50's to 85-90 BPM. I would wake multiple times every night drenched in sweat despite having no blanket on and the A/C set to 65F. I also was always hungry. I was concerned enough to see my Doc. He got his Medical degree in the military and did trauma work in war. He said it was normal and that I was probably burning 5500 calories a day healing. So, I decided to eat and supplement heavily. I also healed very, very fast for an old fart per all the Docs and PTs.

Now that I do need to lose weight and that the bones are healed (although the elbow still hurts), I am trying to figure an approach to weight loss. One that does not impair bone health or lose muscle. I am thinking of paying for Dexa Scans over the next 6 months. My training object is generally to get as low a VLa max as possible meaning I can ride at a pretty good clip burning a high percentage of fat. This takes a lot of riding time sub threshold. I know that these types of rides provoke profound changes in mitochondria and associated enzymes but is there a cost to one's bone health? That is my question that I have not been able to figure out. My SWAG is 2-4 hour Z1/Z2 rides while IF are ok but more intensity or duration could be a problem.

Mitochondria turn over every couple months. I am doing my training bassawkwards, starting with intensity now and then moving to lower intensity and longer distances. Why? I was able to do very short efforts and I felt maintaining max aerobic capacity is critical for me at my age. It will be interesting. I just can't decide whether to inject IF. I do not agree with those who say you can get into ketosis in 8-12 hours. My blood lactate meters used over the years says overwise. I am thinking of having Sunday family dinner and then long Z2 ride monday and Tuesday, breaking the fast at lunch Tuesday. Doing this weekly.
I have a riding buddy who spent a lot of time with a family in India. There, as is very common, they fasted completely 1 day/week. He continued doing that when he came back to the US and resumed riding with us. He's aged out now, but at that time, he was a very strong rider at 6' and 145 lbs. Great climber. The 1-day fast was hard for him to recover from and he quit doing it in favor of being able to ride strong.

The way to lose weight and ride strong is slightly smaller portions. The more hardcore way is to go out for 6 hour below VT1 rides with only water, eating normally otherwise. I think riding hard is worse for bone loss. I don't remember the reason, but during hard efforts, the body pulls calcium out of the blood to increase its concentration, then puts it back into the bones during recovery - or it's supposed to. I've started to take a gram of calcium about an hour before a hard ride or even a hard-ish ride, then magnesium after. There's a study out there that says it works, but I don't do enough DEXAa to know personally. Going up skiing, I've fallen hard a couple times on the ice in the parking lot, didn't break anything. IME anytime you're not riding, you should be working on recovery as seems appropriate.

If you're concerned about bone strength, the only thing that actually works is heavy work in the gym. I've read that bones don't increase in strength until they get stressed to about 10% of their breaking strength. Bones are quite smart.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6279907/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...56328295003789
https://www.rehab.research.va.gov/jo.../hernandez.pdf
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 03-13-22, 10:58 AM
  #55  
burritos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 236

Bikes: 2021 Polygon Siskiu D7, 2008 Lemond Tourmalet

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times in 54 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I did a lot of fasted rides and spent about 18 months in ketosis on a LCHF diet. My guess from experience is to be careful with high intensity work. The body gets good at making glycogen from fat, so, it isn't like you are always depleted. I know that with sufficient time and training, it becomes impossible to bonk.

mTORC1 and mTORC2 are interesting. I was in a weight loss catabolic state when I crashed last September breaking 10 bones. I was intermittently fasting. I had to decide what to do diet-wise while recovering. The research is conflicting WRT bone formation. I found that my resting heart rate increased from mid 50's to 85-90 BPM. I would wake multiple times every night drenched in sweat despite having no blanket on and the A/C set to 65F. I also was always hungry. I was concerned enough to see my Doc. He got his Medical degree in the military and did trauma work in war. He said it was normal and that I was probably burning 5500 calories a day healing. So, I decided to eat and supplement heavily. I also healed very, very fast for an old fart per all the Docs and PTs.

Now that I do need to lose weight and that the bones are healed (although the elbow still hurts), I am trying to figure an approach to weight loss. One that does not impair bone health or lose muscle. I am thinking of paying for Dexa Scans over the next 6 months. My training object is generally to get as low a VLa max as possible meaning I can ride at a pretty good clip burning a high percentage of fat. This takes a lot of riding time sub threshold. I know that these types of rides provoke profound changes in mitochondria and associated enzymes but is there a cost to one's bone health? That is my question that I have not been able to figure out. My SWAG is 2-4 hour Z1/Z2 rides while IF are ok but more intensity or duration could be a problem.

Mitochondria turn over every couple months. I am doing my training bassawkwards, starting with intensity now and then moving to lower intensity and longer distances. Why? I was able to do very short efforts and I felt maintaining max aerobic capacity is critical for me at my age. It will be interesting. I just can't decide whether to inject IF. I do not agree with those who say you can get into ketosis in 8-12 hours. My blood lactate meters used over the years says overwise. I am thinking of having Sunday family dinner and then long Z2 ride monday and Tuesday, breaking the fast at lunch Tuesday. Doing this weekly.
MTOR is fascinating to me. My understanding is that MTOR is the lever for protein synthesis. Though I think the benefits of shutting it down via fasting is overstated. I think the benefits of fasting is the action at insulin(autophagy and fat metabolism switch) and AMPKinase(switch to recycle inefficient mitochondria).

While I personally do 3-4 OMADs per week, I do eat carbs. I do eat a lot of meat and beef liver.

When we order out yummy food for the weekend, then the following nights I will have sweats. I think this is perfectly normal. With the LCHF/fasting/cardio regimen/cold exposure), you are creating more brown fat. Brown fat is fat cells with mitochondria as opposed to white fat with is just fat cells that store fat. If you are intaking a lot of calories, your brown fat will burn calories to create heat as opposed to chemical energy(ATP). You also have a lot of H20 byproduct. So yeah, sweat and fuller night time bladder goes hand in hand with that:

I suspect that what your doctor said was true. For repair, you probably do want higher insulin and mtor activity. LCHF is probably not conducive to that.
burritos is offline  
Old 03-13-22, 12:18 PM
  #56  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,332

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3339 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 939 Posts
Originally Posted by burritos View Post
MTOR is fascinating to me. My understanding is that MTOR is the lever for protein synthesis. Though I think the benefits of shutting it down via fasting is overstated. I think the benefits of fasting is the action at insulin(autophagy and fat metabolism switch) and AMPKinase(switch to recycle inefficient mitochondria).

While I personally do 3-4 OMADs per week, I do eat carbs. I do eat a lot of meat and beef liver.

When we order out yummy food for the weekend, then the following nights I will have sweats. I think this is perfectly normal. With the LCHF/fasting/cardio regimen/cold exposure), you are creating more brown fat. Brown fat is fat cells with mitochondria as opposed to white fat with is just fat cells that store fat. If you are intaking a lot of calories, your brown fat will burn calories to create heat as opposed to chemical energy(ATP). You also have a lot of H20 byproduct. So yeah, sweat and fuller night time bladder goes hand in hand with that:
I suspect that what your doctor said was true. For repair, you probably do want higher insulin and mtor activity. LCHF is probably not conducive to that.
I found a history of the discovery of mTor here: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1716173114
though perhaps you're already familiar with it. I came down with polymyalgia rheumatica (PMR) in October, for which the only known treatment is prednisone, which suppresses the mTor pathway, bummer. I'll be done with the taper this week, hoping to notice a difference.
After my hard ride, described above, I had to pee every hour all night long.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 03-13-22, 01:35 PM
  #57  
burritos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 236

Bikes: 2021 Polygon Siskiu D7, 2008 Lemond Tourmalet

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times in 54 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I found a history of the discovery of mTor here: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1716173114
though perhaps you're already familiar with it. I came down with polymyalgia rheumatica (PMR) in October, for which the only known treatment is prednisone, which suppresses the mTor pathway, bummer. I'll be done with the taper this week, hoping to notice a difference.
After my hard ride, described above, I had to pee every hour all night long.
Thank you for that. Very scientific. I've listened to David Sabatini speak on his youtube videos. Very interesting. If you want a not-so-scientific narrative on rapamycin, check out:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts...-ice-cream-tub

Sorry about your PMR. Apologies for introducing another rabbit hole, but if you are ingesting any seed oil/vegetable oil(corn,soy,palm,safflower,cotton seed,), which most Americans are, then consider eliminating it. You may notice a difference in 3-6 months.
burritos is offline  
Old 03-13-22, 04:05 PM
  #58  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,332

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3339 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 939 Posts
Originally Posted by burritos View Post
Thank you for that. Very scientific. I've listened to David Sabatini speak on his youtube videos. Very interesting. If you want a not-so-scientific narrative on rapamycin, check out:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts...-ice-cream-tub

Sorry about your PMR. Apologies for introducing another rabbit hole, but if you are ingesting any seed oil/vegetable oil(corn,soy,palm,safflower,cotton seed,), which most Americans are, then consider eliminating it. You may notice a difference in 3-6 months.
Olive oil, med diet,
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 03-14-22, 06:12 AM
  #59  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,441
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1451 Post(s)
Liked 1,209 Times in 751 Posts
Originally Posted by burritos View Post
MTOR is fascinating to me. My understanding is that MTOR is the lever for protein synthesis. Though I think the benefits of shutting it down via fasting is overstated. I think the benefits of fasting is the action at insulin(autophagy and fat metabolism switch) and AMPKinase(switch to recycle inefficient mitochondria).

While I personally do 3-4 OMADs per week, I do eat carbs. I do eat a lot of meat and beef liver.

When we order out yummy food for the weekend, then the following nights I will have sweats. I think this is perfectly normal. With the LCHF/fasting/cardio regimen/cold exposure), you are creating more brown fat. Brown fat is fat cells with mitochondria as opposed to white fat with is just fat cells that store fat. If you are intaking a lot of calories, your brown fat will burn calories to create heat as opposed to chemical energy(ATP). You also have a lot of H20 byproduct. So yeah, sweat and fuller night time bladder goes hand in hand with that:

I suspect that what your doctor said was true. For repair, you probably do want higher insulin and mtor activity. LCHF is probably not conducive to that.
The full story is a bit more spicy. After my crash and when I got out of the trauma unit, the Docs came in and told me all the crap I broke and that it would take an old fool like me 12 months to heal. They left.

In the next bed separated by a curtain (Covid??), I hear this Tony Soprano-esque NJ Shore voice. Laying there on fentanyl waiting for a surgeon, suddenly it felt like a movie set that I was in.....a bad one.

"Man, you are f'd up. What the F happened. You need growth hormone. I'm a mixed martial arts fighter and body builder", he goes on. "I broke all my bones in the past including my pelvis". He adamantly told me I needed to be "anabolic" and had to really take care of my eating and supplements. Do cardio even if it hurts, do what you can to keep your body going. On heavy pain meds at the time, thus, can't remember all the stuff he told me other than to eat clean whatever that means and take supplements and get lots and lots of "good" protein. I never saw the fellow although I did see his wife, she was quite obviously a body builder like out of the movies. Very pretty and very muscular. I never did do the growth hormone or "gear" that he said to take but it prompted me to read a lot. mTOR with its role in sensing and signaling the presence of nutrients and when to growth/repair or rest/relax so to speak, the balance of which has aging implications. Some of the weight that I gained is probably muscle. I did my first bike ride on day 29 to be stubborn and my first 200km ride in under 5 months. The Docs and PTs were blown away. Anyone who thinks all calories are equal or supplements are expensive toilet water has it wrong. Nonetheless, upregulating metabolism also has a cost. Inhibition of nMTOR is associated with longevity and the opposite isn't as good.

I used to play around with a glucose, lactate, ketone meters some years ago before during and after workouts. Insulin is also center stage because insulin inhibits the use of one's fat as an energy source during endurance exercise. I learned something very interesting in my bonking and overfeeding experiments. Here is my take.....starting a long ride (100-300 miles) without eating isn't a problem as long as one starts eating frequently and very moderately on a consistent basis about 40-60 minutes into the ride. It seemed to me that there is a magic sensing ability of the body not to switch on the insulin. Just my opinion.....But due to gluconeogenesis (think lose of muscle), it is a mistake not eating on a ride with maybe around 1500-2000 kJ in energy assuming the ride starts topped up in glycogen, which for many riders is about 4 hours. Fat adapted KETO, I used to be able to go 6-7 hours.

So, rule 91 is validated.

Thinking a lot about it, I am going to try to melt off the fat slower and skip any fasting this time. If I fail, the fall is a better time of the year to restrict calories.

CFBoy.....thanks for that MTOR link, very enjoyable read.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Likes For GhostRider62:
Old 03-14-22, 11:38 AM
  #60  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,332

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3339 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 939 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
The full story is a bit more spicy. After my crash and when I got out of the trauma unit, the Docs came in and told me all the crap I broke and that it would take an old fool like me 12 months to heal. They left.

In the next bed separated by a curtain (Covid??), I hear this Tony Soprano-esque NJ Shore voice. Laying there on fentanyl waiting for a surgeon, suddenly it felt like a movie set that I was in.....a bad one.

"Man, you are f'd up. What the F happened. You need growth hormone. I'm a mixed martial arts fighter and body builder", he goes on. "I broke all my bones in the past including my pelvis". He adamantly told me I needed to be "anabolic" and had to really take care of my eating and supplements. Do cardio even if it hurts, do what you can to keep your body going. On heavy pain meds at the time, thus, can't remember all the stuff he told me other than to eat clean whatever that means and take supplements and get lots and lots of "good" protein. I never saw the fellow although I did see his wife, she was quite obviously a body builder like out of the movies. Very pretty and very muscular. I never did do the growth hormone or "gear" that he said to take but it prompted me to read a lot. mTOR with its role in sensing and signaling the presence of nutrients and when to growth/repair or rest/relax so to speak, the balance of which has aging implications. Some of the weight that I gained is probably muscle. I did my first bike ride on day 29 to be stubborn and my first 200km ride in under 5 months. The Docs and PTs were blown away. Anyone who thinks all calories are equal or supplements are expensive toilet water has it wrong. Nonetheless, upregulating metabolism also has a cost. Inhibition of nMTOR is associated with longevity and the opposite isn't as good.

I used to play around with a glucose, lactate, ketone meters some years ago before during and after workouts. Insulin is also center stage because insulin inhibits the use of one's fat as an energy source during endurance exercise. I learned something very interesting in my bonking and overfeeding experiments. Here is my take.....starting a long ride (100-300 miles) without eating isn't a problem as long as one starts eating frequently and very moderately on a consistent basis about 40-60 minutes into the ride. It seemed to me that there is a magic sensing ability of the body not to switch on the insulin. Just my opinion.....But due to gluconeogenesis (think lose of muscle), it is a mistake not eating on a ride with maybe around 1500-2000 kJ in energy assuming the ride starts topped up in glycogen, which for many riders is about 4 hours. Fat adapted KETO, I used to be able to go 6-7 hours.

So, rule 91 is validated.

Thinking a lot about it, I am going to try to melt off the fat slower and skip any fasting this time. If I fail, the fall is a better time of the year to restrict calories.

CFBoy.....thanks for that MTOR link, very enjoyable read.
Everything I know about on-bike nutrition, I learned from reading every pub on the Hammer Nutrition website, 20-some years ago. I practiced what they preached and waddyknow, it worked. Basically, it's about the same thing you're talking about. That's how I ride, too. On big rides, I do 100g of carbs, using my 7:1 carb/protein powder, 3 hours before the ride, then nothing until maybe 30' into it, then a swallow every 15'. Before I started with the powder, I used bars, same thing, 1/4 of a Clif Bar every 15'. All one has to do is to slowly eat half one's burn. Don't even need a PM - Strava's kJ estimate is close enough for practical purposes. Just eat like that and ride your heart out for however long. No nutritional foolery required. Fat burning is obviously happening, no need to try to eat back your burn later.

When you were using your lactate meter, how accurate was going by breathing in staying below the onset of lactate accumulation? Thanks in advance.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 03-14-22, 01:42 PM
  #61  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,964

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3447 Post(s)
Liked 2,390 Times in 1,454 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Everything I know about on-bike nutrition, I learned from reading every pub on the Hammer Nutrition website, 20-some years ago. I practiced what they preached and waddyknow, it worked. Basically, it's about the same thing you're talking about. That's how I ride, too. On big rides, I do 100g of carbs, using my 7:1 carb/protein powder, 3 hours before the ride, then nothing until maybe 30' into it, then a swallow every 15'. Before I started with the powder, I used bars, same thing, 1/4 of a Clif Bar every 15'. All one has to do is to slowly eat half one's burn. Don't even need a PM - Strava's kJ estimate is close enough for practical purposes. Just eat like that and ride your heart out for however long. No nutritional foolery required. Fat burning is obviously happening, no need to try to eat back your burn later.
I think a lot of us fall into variants of this, though circumstances do make it a little different for me. For example, my big rides begin early in the morning, around daybreak, and i'm not going to be awake 3 hours before that. I eat a good breakfast, and am riding maybe 30-40 minutes later. Consequently, I am not so interested in eating early in the ride (though I do make sure to hydrate). A few hours into the ride, I am eating small amounts regularly.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 03-14-22, 03:27 PM
  #62  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,332

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3339 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 939 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I think a lot of us fall into variants of this, though circumstances do make it a little different for me. For example, my big rides begin early in the morning, around daybreak, and i'm not going to be awake 3 hours before that. I eat a good breakfast, and am riding maybe 30-40 minutes later. Consequently, I am not so interested in eating early in the ride (though I do make sure to hydrate). A few hours into the ride, I am eating small amounts regularly.
Mine, too. I mix up my 400 kCal breakfast powder in a pint of water in the evening, set my alarm, wake up and drink it, go back to sleep. It's worth it to me. Hammer opines that an hour before a ride is the worst time to eat because of insulin and then BS drop-out. They say, better to not eat at all (even better, right?), then eat a bar 15' before while you're waiting to start, or nothing. I've both of those too, and I think they're right. I used to have stomach trouble on long hard rides.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 03-14-22, 03:37 PM
  #63  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,964

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3447 Post(s)
Liked 2,390 Times in 1,454 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Mine, too. I mix up my 400 kCal breakfast powder in a pint of water in the evening, set my alarm, wake up and drink it, go back to sleep. It's worth it to me. Hammer opines that an hour before a ride is the worst time to eat because of insulin and then BS drop-out. They say, better to not eat at all (even better, right?), then eat a bar 15' before while you're waiting to start, or nothing. I've both of those too, and I think they're right. I used to have stomach trouble on long hard rides.
An hour before, I can do. 3 hours before, nope.

I'm not eating in the middle of the night and then going back to sleep. Not only do I doubt that I'd get back to sleep easily, but as per my OP, one of the reasons I got into this in the first place was acid reflux. Putting food or nutritious fluid into my stomach and then lying down is exactly what I don't want to do..
MinnMan is offline  
Old 03-14-22, 03:43 PM
  #64  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,964

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3447 Post(s)
Liked 2,390 Times in 1,454 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Mine, too. I mix up my 400 kCal breakfast powder in a pint of water in the evening, set my alarm, wake up and drink it, go back to sleep. It's worth it to me. Hammer opines that an hour before a ride is the worst time to eat because of insulin and then BS drop-out. They say, better to not eat at all (even better, right?), then eat a bar 15' before while you're waiting to start, or nothing. I've both of those too, and I think they're right. I used to have stomach trouble on long hard rides.
Mayo Clinic says

MinnMan is offline  
Old 03-14-22, 03:49 PM
  #65  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,441
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1451 Post(s)
Liked 1,209 Times in 751 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Everything I know about on-bike nutrition, I learned from reading every pub on the Hammer Nutrition website, 20-some years ago. I practiced what they preached and waddyknow, it worked. Basically, it's about the same thing you're talking about. That's how I ride, too. On big rides, I do 100g of carbs, using my 7:1 carb/protein powder, 3 hours before the ride, then nothing until maybe 30' into it, then a swallow every 15'. Before I started with the powder, I used bars, same thing, 1/4 of a Clif Bar every 15'. All one has to do is to slowly eat half one's burn. Don't even need a PM - Strava's kJ estimate is close enough for practical purposes. Just eat like that and ride your heart out for however long. No nutritional foolery required. Fat burning is obviously happening, no need to try to eat back your burn later.

When you were using your lactate meter, how accurate was going by breathing in staying below the onset of lactate accumulation? Thanks in advance.
I found that VT1 and aerobic threshold were easily identified by breathing and feel as well as capillary blood lactate. I would take three separate samples at each level to control variability of the finger prick and blood "draw". It was basically 1 mmol over my baseline. I can tell my fitness by how much power and my HR at the first ventilatory threshold. Most of my focus was all on this level because it corresponds to 400km type pace.

Functional Threshold power and VT2 were more of a crapshoot to predict. First, it is very hard to draw the blood and measure on oneself and it seems the blood lactate levels really vary for me at threshold on a day to day basis. Anywhere from 3-4 mmol above baseline when resting. Some days 4 mmol and others close to 5 mmol. Onset of lactate accumulation is the point where lactate clearance is exceeded by my understanding and is sort of like FTP. The reason I think my breathing is not a useful indicator? Once you exceed that physiological limit of lactate clearance (burning it in type 1 fibers), your breathing is already at its limit. There is no sensitivity, breathing is at max. Essentially, you are adding W'. Whether you add it quickly or drip it in over 30-60 minutes, breathing is not a good indicator in my experience. I do not know what the research says, never looked into it.

https://health.ucdavis.edu/sportsmed...ce%20abilities.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Likes For GhostRider62:
Old 03-14-22, 03:58 PM
  #66  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,441
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1451 Post(s)
Liked 1,209 Times in 751 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Mine, too. I mix up my 400 kCal breakfast powder in a pint of water in the evening, set my alarm, wake up and drink it, go back to sleep. It's worth it to me. Hammer opines that an hour before a ride is the worst time to eat because of insulin and then BS drop-out. They say, better to not eat at all (even better, right?), then eat a bar 15' before while you're waiting to start, or nothing. I've both of those too, and I think they're right. I used to have stomach trouble on long hard rides.
I agree 100% with that.

With a 4 am start to many brevets, if the drive is pretty far and I am up at 1:30, I eat. If I get up at 2:30 or later, it is espresso with some coconut oil......absolutely no carbs.

I won't want to eat on the bike until the sun starts to peak out and the birds are chirping. It might be an hour, but then I force myself to eat. I might eat 100-250 cal/hour depending on the pace and distance. 250kcals/hr is the absolute max I can stomach and early on when i did not have a meal before the ride, I shoot for 250 for a 2-3 hours and then settle into my normal.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Likes For GhostRider62:
Old 03-14-22, 04:43 PM
  #67  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,332

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3339 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 939 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Mayo Clinic says
Mayo Clinic doesn't know F-all about doing hard rides. They have no idea and would react in horror if they did. We're outliers, at the edge of the possible. Luckily, I have a PCP who really rides and this wonderful forum.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Likes For Carbonfiberboy:
Old 03-15-22, 01:35 PM
  #68  
burritos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 236

Bikes: 2021 Polygon Siskiu D7, 2008 Lemond Tourmalet

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times in 54 Posts
I agree, none of that makes sense to me.
burritos is offline  
Old 04-08-22, 06:43 AM
  #69  
jerrymor
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 3 Posts
Found an interesting article about 72 hour fasting https://betterme.world/articles/72-hour-fast/. Planning to do it next week. Any tips how to prepare for that?
Would also like to hear the personal experiences if you had some of course. What things should i avoid? What things should i be aware of?
Looking forward for your recommendations.

Last edited by jerrymor; 04-14-22 at 03:07 AM.
jerrymor is offline  
Old 04-08-22, 07:46 AM
  #70  
RH Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Liked 233 Times in 118 Posts
Originally Posted by jerrymor View Post
Found an interesting article about 72 hour fasting. Planning to do it next week. Any tips how to prepare for that?
How to prepare depends on your current health. When I started IMF, I had such blood sugar issues from bad diet and being overweight that, I doubt I would have lived through a 72 hour fast. I started just by skipping lunch a couple weeks. Then I worked up to a 20 hour fast every day with a 4 hour eating window. Now, 4 years later and 160 lbs. lighter 72 hours isn't such a big deal.

I would recommend doing a 24 first and see how it goes. One thing to think of though is when you do eat again, you want the healthiest and best nutrition with a low glycemic impact. Fasting will cause you to be much more sensitive to insulin.
RH Clark is offline  
Old 04-08-22, 08:48 PM
  #71  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,964

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3447 Post(s)
Liked 2,390 Times in 1,454 Posts
I'm no expert, but I don't see how you can do a 72 hour fast without losing muscle. I also can't imagine what the benefit might be as compared to less severe fasts.

btw I've rather easily fallen into a routine of 16 hour IMF, 5 days/week. I'm naturally a moderate, I guess, but this is working out pretty well for me. Also, on Carbonfiberboy 's advice, I've been enjoying whey protein shakes after my long weekend rides.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 04-10-22, 04:16 PM
  #72  
RH Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Liked 233 Times in 118 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I'm no expert, but I don't see how you can do a 72 hour fast without losing muscle. I also can't imagine what the benefit might be as compared to less severe fasts.

btw I've rather easily fallen into a routine of 16 hour IMF, 5 days/week. I'm naturally a moderate, I guess, but this is working out pretty well for me. Also, on Carbonfiberboy 's advice, I've been enjoying whey protein shakes after my long weekend rides.
Why would your body consume muscle if it has fat to burn? That's the reason you store fat in the first place. If you had extremely low body fat and made more physical demands than the fat could supply, then I suppose muscle would be utilized, but that would be an extreme case.

If humans couldn't go 48-72 hours without food, the human race would have died out millions of years ago. There are many studies that show fasting individuals lost less muscle overall compared to restrictive diets of longer duration when similar amounts of weight were lost. In fact fasting is one of the best ways to increase growth hormone and in men.
RH Clark is offline  
Old 04-10-22, 06:13 PM
  #73  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,964

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3447 Post(s)
Liked 2,390 Times in 1,454 Posts
Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
Why would your body consume muscle if it has fat to burn? That's the reason you store fat in the first place. If you had extremely low body fat and made more physical demands than the fat could supply, then I suppose muscle would be utilized, but that would be an extreme case.

If humans couldn't go 48-72 hours without food, the human race would have died out millions of years ago. There are many studies that show fasting individuals lost less muscle overall compared to restrictive diets of longer duration when similar amounts of weight were lost. In fact fasting is one of the best ways to increase growth hormone and in men.
Well, I have a BMI below 21 and I ride between 200-300 miles week. Would I only burn fat if I fasted for 3 days straight?

As to your second paragraph, you are twisting my words and creating a false premise. I never suggested that people couldn't go foodless for 72 hours without permanently damaging their odds of survival. i only suggested that they could lose some muscle mass. In a training and nutrition subforum composed of cycling enthusiasts, that would be something to avoid.

Also, if by human you mean **** sapien, we've only been around for 300,000 years, so we couldn't have died out "millions of years ago". Speculations about the metabolisms of earlier species and how that relates to us are based on nothing.

Finally, all arguments about what we are supposed to eat and other things we are supposed to do based on supposed evolutionary adaptation (we evolved to eat this way, therefore) ignore the fact that we didn't evolve to live to be 90 or even to remain healthy through middle age. Evolutionary pressure to preserve the species didn't give a damn about the aging process. It just worked to ensure that we survived well enough as a group to reproduce.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 04-10-22, 06:43 PM
  #74  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,964

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3447 Post(s)
Liked 2,390 Times in 1,454 Posts
Anthropology professors Rachel Caspari and Sang-Hee Lee, of Central Michigan University and the University of California at Riverside, respectively, chose instead to analyze the relative ages of skeletons found in archeological digs in eastern and southern Africa, Europe, and elsewhere.

After comparing the proportion of those who died young with those who died at an older age, the team concluded that longevity only began to significantly increase—that is, past the age of 30 or so—about 30,000 years ago, which is quite late in the span of human evolution.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/longe...istory-2224054
MinnMan is offline  
Old 04-11-22, 07:48 AM
  #75  
mcours2006
Senior Member
 
mcours2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 6,128

Bikes: ...a few.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1969 Post(s)
Liked 348 Times in 199 Posts
I was doing 14/10 IF for year before I realized it was IF. No biggie.

I usually do my run/ride in the morning in fasted state, sometimes up to three-hour ride, or two-hour run. These are not hard rides/runs. They are just steady aerobic workouts.

If I am riding with a group or know that I'm going to be doing harder efforts, then I will eat breakfast. Not eating breakfast and then trying to put out hard surges or doing hills is a recipe for getting dropped.
mcours2006 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.