mschwett 

beta blocker + ace inhibitor + angiotensin blocker + antiarrythmic (flecainide). pretty much the kitchen sink.

a subject for another discussion, but cyling is the only strenuous exercise i can do without feeling like ****. the ability to vary effort independently of the road is really great. i do need/use a very wide range of gearing, because i can't or shouldn't go absolutely all out for long. but over the past year my 2-3 hour power has gone up around 20%.

mschwett 

that's really interesting; i don't know that i get much adrenaline from cruising at 20 on the flats (especially with a beta blocker haha) but the cooling may be a HUGE factor. i overheat easily.

Carbonfiberboy 

Good for you! I know a few very experienced riders who wound up in a similar situation and have given it up. They don't look so good anymore. You are so right about one's ability to vary effort on the bike. I know a couple older people who've gone electric even when they didn't need to. That has limited what they can do off the bike. On our tandem we go from 53X11 to 24X40.

Erzulis Boat 

The watts being discussed here are a measure of a HUMAN output. It is not the wattage provided by a motor. We have these things called "Power Meters" nowadays that measure our body's output (work) using watts as the unit of measure. We can now see exactly what level of force we are applying to the pedals at any given moment.

Riveting

I'm not saying that going 20 mph on the flats would satisfy an adrenaline junky, but going 20 mph is certainly more exciting (aka adrenaline/endorphin producing) than going 7 mph uphill. And is almost certainly a significant factor is this discussion. Faster = More Adrenaline/Endorphins = More Bloodflow and Pain Suppression = Better Feeling Performance.

DaveLeeNC

I ride on rolling terrain so pretty much have no idea what it is like to ride for a mile or two without a couple of very noticeable inclines thrown in there several times. But I honestly believe that the perfect terrain for me to do my best 20 min ftp test would be a steady 3-5% incline. But just like there are no longish/flat places where I ride, there are no long inclines either.

I did spend a week on Sanibel Island a few years ago and had my bike. I remember clearly thinking "wow - this is different".

dave

mschwett 

yeah a 3% incline forever... not so hard to slow you into the overheat speed or require a granny gear, but not so fast that you're fighting drag for every mph. seems like a rare kind of topography/geography. mostly around here we have shortish flats followed by 6-10% roads, or rollllllers.

PeteHski

As one other poster mentioned, I'd put my money on the main difference here being the cooling effect at the much higher road speed. Anyone who rides regularly indoors is VERY aware of the importance of cooling when it comes to endurance. Thermal efficiency is always a major factor in sustained power production, human or otherwise. I do think the muscle activation over the pedal stroke is a little different when climbing too. I'm actually the opposite to you and find it a little easier to hold power on a climb vs flat (unless the weather is hot due to the reason above). But there's not much in it. Also with enough fan cooling I can produce the same power indoor and outdoor on endurance efforts. I sometimes deliberately reduce my indoor cooling to simulate hot weather climbing and it definitely saps your power!

Hermes

Here is an article about why some cyclists are better at climbing verus time trialing and vice versa. https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/clim...-are-affected/

When I lived in NorCal, I would do my FTP test on Kings Mountain versus the Canada Road time trial course. I generated more power climbing.

burnthesheep

I tried to read that, and despite a few good tidbits some was word salad.

This below means he doesn't understand in the article how hip angle affects power output between the two riding positions and also probably hasn't trained for the TT bike that much for there to be THAT big a difference. That's pretty rudimentary stuff. Even road for road bike, climbing you're likely more upright on the bar tops with more open hip angle than chewing bar tape on the flats on a road bike going 25+ mph.

"For example, when I climb I can hold a consistent 400 watts for 15 minutes. I can’t do this when I’m on a TT bike though — I can only manage about 330 watts for 15 minutes. It’s not just me – my mates and I have always debated about why this might be the case and to be honest, none of us really knows."

PeteHski

For sure I lose power when riding in a more aero position. It's definitely a compromise for me. The article was interesting, but got unnecessarily bogged down with the concept of kinetic energy. Could have simply said that the rider on the flat has more momentum.

In reality my preferred cadence when climbing is significantly lower than when riding hard on the flat. I will tend to aim for around 85-90 rpm on the flat at threshold power vs 75-80 rpm on a climb. I presume that must be due to differences in muscle recruitment as the article was alluding to. I basically find it harder to spin on a climb even when I'm not gear limited. Of course when it gets super-steep, cadence simply becomes a function of my power limitations!

Carbonfiberboy 

Cadence change is about crank inertial load, the affect of which is to change muscle recruitment, which changes because while climbing, pedal force becomes more spread out and thus cadence will be lower for the same power. We have to bring the pedal over the top. On the flat, inertia can help us do that, but not so much on a steep climb.

burnthesheep

To try to add something to this, I personally feel your airspeed and current power output matter with the inertia part on the flats. It's a lot easier if you've got a false flat downhill putting out 150w at 20mph than it is on the pan flats with an airspeed of 28 or 30mph in a time trial. If you're not "on top of the gear" at those air speeds, no amount of inertia from riding the flats will help as the wind turns into your mountain instead of it being an actual mountain. Just thinking out loud.

Iride01 

I was thinking about this statement when I rode the other day. I think it might depend on how you get more aero. And partly I think that must be a fit issue.

When I'm on the hoods in my normal position, then get more aero while still staying on the hoods, then I can't put out as much power either as I could in my normal position when on the hoods. But when I go to the drops and get more aero, then my arms are in a better position to resist the upward force of putting more power into the pedals and therefore more power goes into the pedals and moving the bike.

I haven't had my PM long enough to really say, but I have for a long time noticed that almost all of my personal KOM's for climbing hill segments are while I'm in the drops and very aero. I'd think I'm putting more power out for them and it's not just the aero benefit alone getting me the good time to climb.

Carbonfiberboy 

I think we've all seen the plots of pedal force for time trialists which have been frequently posted here, sorry though as I was not a poster of same, I don't have a link. In any case, these plots show a strong downstroke and little if any force applied to the pedal anywhere else. And in fact that's how we ride fast on the flat. It's efficient. To reduce the size of that downforce and increase endurance, we TT at a high cadence - less force, higher frequency. Thusly, looking at crank inertial load: https://rcnl.rice.edu/PDFs/jb2002.pdf

Gotta be as you say, on top of the gear.

PeteHski

I was referring more to my ability to put out sustainable aerobic power rather than a maximal effort. If I'm riding along in the drops or with bent elbows on the hoods I simply can't breathe as well as I can sat more upright in a climbing position. Also the more closed hip angle changes my pedalling dynamics. The simple fact that I spend far more time climbing than riding on the flats probably influences my personal strengths and weaknesses the most. If I am riding hard on the flat I usually favour the hoods over drops.

Iride01 

I've never felt that it harder to breathe or my lung function is reduced when in the drops. I even went to narrower bars recently and didn't notice any breathing restriction. But you aren't the only one I've heard that has said being in the drops or that narrow bars make it more difficult for breathing. So I don't know what's up there. Maybe like some people have to be taught how to properly breathe to sing well, there are people that need to be able to change up how they breathe for the bike.

My biggest thing for staying aero seems to be the little bit of beer gut I get in the winter that takes quite a long time to get rid of. And perhaps just range of motion in my neck keeping me from being able to see as far down the road as I'd like.

While on being on the hoods in a relaxed position is a comfortable position for long drawn out climbs, I still think I put out more power into the pedals when in the drops. And when I do get out of the seat to climb, I also do that better staying in the drops.

I suppose the differences in our bikes might make a world of difference too. I have short reach shallow drop bars on my bike. But still there is a big difference in effort needed to push 20 mph on the hoods and 20 mph in the drops. At least perception wise there is. I haven't gotten around to actually comparing PM data for that. I'm mostly just enjoying the warm weather now when riding.

PeteHski

I'm not fat and I know how to breathe from my belly. What I don't have is great lower back/hip flexibility, so that might be my limiting factor. I can ride comfortably in the drops when I need to, but it's not my preferred position for sustained power. Not very many people climb in the drops, especially not while standing (Primoz Roglic being a very notable exception). If I'm at full gas seated on a climb I'll usually be on the tops, elbows out, chest up. If it's very steep I will often reach forward on the hoods for better balance. I invariably use the hoods when climbing out of the saddle. All personal preferences. The pros have all manner of different styles.

tomato coupe

His estimates are actually pretty close to what I've measured (on a road bike):

mschwett 

they're also very close to what most calculators suggest for being on the hoods on a "normal" road bike - not a TT or super aero integrated thing with super skinny tires and deep dish wheels and all that.

that said, i do think the power meter in that bike reads a little high, maybe 5-10%. but it reads consistently high, so the original question still holds. i do believe it's a combination of factors mentioned, crank inertia, heat/wind, adrenaline, boredom/psychology, riding position...

burnthesheep

Their loop had zero elevation, it was an outdoor run/bike fitness track. The Strava elevation profile is about 4 posts above. Your loop there got nearly 1000ft in 30mi. A bit different. And, you were at 1/2 mph faster at that also. So almost supporting my claim instead of refuting it.

tomato coupe

It was also a loop, so there is no net elevation gain. Basically the first 15 miles are at about 1% and the last 15 miles are at about -1%. (Those small slopes would cause a drop in average speed of about 2% compared to a perfectly flat course.)

Here's a run at exactly 22.0 mph average:


So, no, it doesn't support your claim.

burnthesheep

To get that for their flat loop on the aeroweenie calculator I had to put in the highest recommended value for a CdA for a road rider. Around 0.400. Which is what I said above in an earlier post. You posting about your loops compared to theirs is apples to spinach. Just because you got a similar value doesn't prove anything. The best case would be having this person go ride your loop or you ride their loop. Not different people on different bikes on different days at different altitudes.

Folks are different, and different in this case means a pretty high combo of CRR and CdA for the power given. Others are a lot less. We've a college kid roadie here that did a 20mi loop locally at around 25mph on 260w. No TT bars. With a few small rollers in there. No aero frameset. Maybe 38mm deep wheels. Again, different.

tomato coupe

Your statement was:
I have dozens of files that refute that. And, no, I don’t have really large CdA or Crr.

burnthesheep

Stop pretending to know what you're talking about. You don't own the equipment to measure it nor have you gone to a tunnel.