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-   -   Sign of too little food on the ride? (https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/1249555-sign-too-little-food-ride.html)

qwaalodge 04-04-22 05:20 AM

Sign of too little food on the ride?
 
Yesterday, I rode for 3 hrs which I haven't done for one whole year. Most of my rides have been 30 to 45 minutes and lately, I've been doing 1 hr rides in the weekends only with very short indoor training sessions during the weekdays (under 15 minutes).

I was perfectly fine for the first 2 hours of the ride that included 1000 ft of steep climbs 15 to 20% grade and maintaining 20 mph on the flats on a heavy commuter bike. No soreness in the first 2 hours and still feel 100%

However, in the 2 hr mark, I've exhausted my drink bottle that contained diluted milk chocolate with a pinch of salt. From that point, my strength rapidly deteriorated and started feeling sore in my legs. I started having nausea too. The last one hour of the ride is mostly flats, maintaining 20 mph until I no longer could.

I felt weak and dizzy the rest of the day after I got home but today, the day after, I feel 100% fresh again and resumed indoor training. No soreness anywhere like I never did the 3 hr ride.

MinnMan 04-04-22 07:19 AM

undertrained for that ride, probably. Nutrition effect likely parenthetical.

Iride01 04-04-22 09:27 AM

As long as I'm in the shape to ride a particular distance or even just attempt it, then carbohydrates are all I need for the entire time I am riding. And I'm happy putting all of them in my bottles. Usually consuming 150 - 200 Calories per hour is what I plan on for me. I don't see any advantage to protein while riding other than it can smooth out some of the tastes. And maybe helps with how it feels in your stomach. Fats I wouldn't add at all.

So I'm a little skeptical of milk while riding. I'd worry about stomach upset. Though I use to be skeptical of milk as an after ride recovery drink. Though I've found that milk seems to be a good recovery drink when additional carbs are added too it. Like chocolate syrup! Though mostly I'm using soy milk for the protein boost in my post ride recovery drink.

Last week I did my birthday ride and took 4 hours 15 minutes pretty much non-stop except for crossings and a water stop. Except for the carbs I put in my bottle I only ate one high carb power bar that had a little bit of protein in it.

So I too will agree that if you had issues then you just probably pushed too hard too soon.

qwaalodge 04-05-22 11:18 AM

I felt famished in the last hour of the ride after my bottle ran out. Any chance bringing one more bottle would help?

Iride01 04-05-22 02:29 PM

I go through 25 fluid ounces of drink every 50 minutes. So I normally have two bottles on my bike and that gets me a tad over 30 miles. I personally won't ride 20 minutes without water. In the summer heat here one can die without staying properly hydrated. And getting dehydrated can cause you to mistake thirst and hunger as well as a lot of other things.

For rides longer than 30 miles, if I can fill my bottles somewhere with water, I take dry mix to put in them. When I can't do that, I've stuffed a bottle in my jersey pocket or velcro'd it to the underside of my top tube and even taped one to the underside of my downtube a time or two. Put that bottle in a plastic bag. It'll get all sorts of road filth flung onto it from the front tire.

So I have carried four 25 fl oz bottles on rides and could do 5 or 6 bottles if willing to deal with them in my jersey pockets. Those get switched out as soon as I empty the first bottle as the weight is annoying in a back jersey pocket.


So if you run out of drink while riding distances, you need to stop and call for your SAG person.

GhostRider62 04-05-22 02:39 PM


Originally Posted by qwaalodge (Post 22462542)
I felt famished in the last hour of the ride after my bottle ran out. Any chance bringing one more bottle would help?

Depending on temperatures, one bottle is likely not enough. I did two hours today in 48F with one bottle and did not even finish it. On a hot day, I might need a bottle an hour. It would not hurt to bring a second bottle. Normally, I do not eat on a 3 hour ride but it sounds like your relative lack of training base would suggest bringing an emergency supply of food along and nibbling a bit as you go. It might not take much supplementary carbs.

MinnMan 04-05-22 03:47 PM


Originally Posted by qwaalodge (Post 22462542)
I felt famished in the last hour of the ride after my bottle ran out. Any chance bringing one more bottle would help?

I'll try one more time. Better training will help. Ramp up the length and difficulty of your rides.

You are treeing up the wrong bark, most likely.

qwaalodge 04-05-22 10:08 PM


Originally Posted by GhostRider62 (Post 22462751)
Depending on temperatures, one bottle is likely not enough. I did two hours today in 48F with one bottle and did not even finish it. On a hot day, I might need a bottle an hour. It would not hurt to bring a second bottle. Normally, I do not eat on a 3 hour ride but it sounds like your relative lack of training base would suggest bringing an emergency supply of food along and nibbling a bit as you go. It might not take much supplementary carbs.

Temperatures started at 92F and ride ended just under 90F at night. Humidity around 70%. Temp index may have been 95F

I soaked my gloves, shirt and hair in water before heading out. It kept me cool for the first 30 minutes.

MinnMan 04-05-22 11:14 PM

Ah, you didn't make clear how hot it was in the Kingdom of Qwaa this time of year.

At those temperatures, a 3 hour ride requires a great deal of hydration. One bottle for a 3 hour ride was not nearly enough. But the issue would be fluids and maybe electrolytes, not food or nutrition.

qwaalodge 04-06-22 02:00 AM


Originally Posted by MinnMan (Post 22463166)
Ah, you didn't make clear how hot it was in the Kingdom of Qwaa this time of year.

At those temperatures, a 3 hour ride requires a great deal of hydration. One bottle for a 3 hour ride was not nearly enough. But the issue would be fluids and maybe electrolytes, not food or nutrition.

Didn't think that's a huge deal until Ghostrider talked about temperature. I know it's important enough for me to avoid riding between 8am and 4pm. One time I rode 11am, high noon sun, temperatures going above 100F for only one hour. I brought 1 bottle of drink with electrolytes. I was fine the whole ride, didn't feel any weakness, and felt ok after the ride but few hours later, I had painful throbbing headache that didn't go away until the next day. I did it again the next weekend, thinking it was a fluke and had a repeat of that headache.

From then on I avoided riding between 8am and 4pm and no longer had any issues with the ride until I did this 3 hour ride from 4pm to 7pm.

I might do it again, not this weekend but when I get free time. I'll bring a pannier so I can have 3 bottles of drink.

GhostRider62 04-06-22 06:15 AM

It takes a couple of weeks for me to adjust to very hot temperatures.

I find wearing white sun sleeves and keeping them wet helps a lot in 100+ temps.....just another idea.

rumrunn6 04-06-22 07:13 AM

3 hrs no water or food? I would not do that

qwaalodge 04-06-22 08:39 AM


Originally Posted by GhostRider62 (Post 22463290)
It takes a couple of weeks for me to adjust to very hot temperatures.

I find wearing white sun sleeves and keeping them wet helps a lot in 100+ temps.....just another idea.

I did wet my long sleeved quick dry hoodie jacket before heading out and my gloves and my hair too. It was nice until it it dried out in 30 minutes. Unfortunately, I did not bring extra water to keep it wet for the next 3 hours.

I estimate bringing three bottles in my next attempt at the same route. 2 bottles for drink with carbs+electrolytes and one bottle of pure water to keep my jacket wet. Or perhaps four bottles just to be on the safe side. Three for drink and and electrolytes and one for keeping things wet.

qwaalodge 04-06-22 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by rumrunn6 (Post 22463346)
3 hrs no water or food? I would not do that

I thought just 1 bottle of drink with carbs and electrolytes would be enough in >90F riding temps for three hours

Is losing power quite suddenly is expected for insufficient "fuel"? My legs just suddenly went from being ok to quite sore in just just a matter of minutes past the 2 hr mark and after I depleted my bottle and it happened while I was cruising the flats. I started having a headache too.

Carbonfiberboy 04-06-22 11:03 AM

It's all of the above: dehydrated (why you had pain and nausea), out of gas (why you felt weak), and undertrained (why you suffered more than you should have). Training doesn't solve problems of dehydration and lack of fuel, but it does enable you to do a better job of suffering through them. As others have commented, 1 bottle/hour, carb-rich, say 150-250 calories depending on how hard one is capable of riding. The better shape you're in and thus the harder you can ride continuously for 3-4 hours, the more carbs and hydration you actually need. In top shape on long mountain rides, I've had problems of lack of water and fuel. I still finished, but I wasn't shall I say, comfortable.

You should be able to complete one ride in relative comfort which is as long as the sum of your weekly hours in each of the two weeks preceding the long ride. Having problems with doing that is not usually a training problem, though it could be a pacing problem. Use that for a guide in the future.

The secret to getting in better shape is simply more total weekly hours. Six is pretty easy to get for most folks, ten is enough that you can do any ride, anywhere, any time. That would be 500 hours a year, or about 7500 miles. I've found 5000 miles/year, or about 400 hours counting gym time to be enough to do almost anything. Keep track. I ride year 'round, though more hours in summer of course. Year 'round is critical IME. Trainers and rollers work fine. Count those hours too. In fact, I think trainer and roller hours are equal to about 1-1/3 outdoor hours - no coasting, stop signs or traffic lights. The time at stop signs and lights don't count of course, but they do rest your legs. That said, I don't use a multiplier. Hours are hours.

rm -rf 04-06-22 01:33 PM

90F, 3 hour ride with hills?
I'd finish 3 24 ounce water bottles, one with a diluted sport mix to start the ride. So that's a water stop part way through the ride. Also a Coke at the stop is good, I like that.
400 calories in energy bars, at least. And I like having an extra one "just in case"

And a cooler with iced cold water waiting at the end of the ride!

qwaalodge 04-06-22 11:33 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 22463650)
It's all of the above: dehydrated (why you had pain and nausea), out of gas (why you felt weak), and undertrained (why you suffered more than you should have). Training doesn't solve problems of dehydration and lack of fuel, but it does enable you to do a better job of suffering through them. As others have commented, 1 bottle/hour, carb-rich, say 150-250 calories depending on how hard one is capable of riding. The better shape you're in and thus the harder you can ride continuously for 3-4 hours, the more carbs and hydration you actually need. In top shape on long mountain rides, I've had problems of lack of water and fuel. I still finished, but I wasn't shall I say, comfortable.

You should be able to complete one ride in relative comfort which is as long as the sum of your weekly hours in each of the two weeks preceding the long ride. Having problems with doing that is not usually a training problem, though it could be a pacing problem. Use that for a guide in the future.

The secret to getting in better shape is simply more total weekly hours. Six is pretty easy to get for most folks, ten is enough that you can do any ride, anywhere, any time. That would be 500 hours a year, or about 7500 miles. I've found 5000 miles/year, or about 400 hours counting gym time to be enough to do almost anything. Keep track. I ride year 'round, though more hours in summer of course. Year 'round is critical IME. Trainers and rollers work fine. Count those hours too. In fact, I think trainer and roller hours are equal to about 1-1/3 outdoor hours - no coasting, stop signs or traffic lights. The time at stop signs and lights don't count of course, but they do rest your legs. That said, I don't use a multiplier. Hours are hours.

I do between 3.5 to 4.5 hours of training per week. 3.5 hrs in indoor trainer. Each day is 15 minutes zone1 spinning 120 to 140 rpm and another 15 minutes in zone4 low cadence (cumulative, not continuous duration). Excluding stretching for several minutes.

As I get stronger, I increase power output but NOT the duration. Have difficulty finding more free time for training so I would simply increase power output in the time given. If situation gets better, I'll do my best to reach 10 hrs /week.

I did finish the ride, got home but with nausea and nausea being the most bothersome feeling. I would have been OKAY with the sore legs but the nausea wrecked my spirit because I know it's about to get worse and got a throbbing headache the rest of the evening. Totally fine the next day. Legs fresh again. Only the butt is a little sore and my left wrist. I have fairly recent accident-related injury on my left wrist so the soreness is probably expected. But no leg nor hand numbness during the 3 hour ride.

Re: Pacing. I may have pushed hard in the first hour there was a strong headwind so I went about chasing slow cars to draft 10 ft behind. Longer duration of z4 effort to catch up to and get in the draft zone. 2nd hour was mostly steep hills which actually felt easier than dealing with headwinds on the flats.

I'm also thinking of avoiding milk in my drinks for now. I've had upset stomach by the time I got home. Would be the first I had problems with milk. Milk never gave me issues before when consumed during rides.

qwaalodge 04-06-22 11:53 PM


Originally Posted by rm -rf (Post 22463800)
90F, 3 hour ride with hills?
I'd finish 3 24 ounce water bottles, one with a diluted sport mix to start the ride. So that's a water stop part way through the ride. Also a Coke at the stop is good, I like that.
400 calories in energy bars, at least. And I like having an extra one "just in case"

And a cooler with iced cold water waiting at the end of the ride!

Coke sounds good! Sounds like a good incentive to bring my insulated pannier bag to keep my drinks cold.

Bad idea to pour cold water on my shirt though?

Carbonfiberboy 04-07-22 05:56 PM


Originally Posted by qwaalodge (Post 22464272)
I do between 3.5 to 4.5 hours of training per week. 3.5 hrs in indoor trainer. Each day is 15 minutes zone1 spinning 120 to 140 rpm and another 15 minutes in zone4 low cadence (cumulative, not continuous duration). Excluding stretching for several minutes.

As I get stronger, I increase power output but NOT the duration. Have difficulty finding more free time for training so I would simply increase power output in the time given. If situation gets better, I'll do my best to reach 10 hrs /week.

I did finish the ride, got home but with nausea and nausea being the most bothersome feeling. I would have been OKAY with the sore legs but the nausea wrecked my spirit because I know it's about to get worse and got a throbbing headache the rest of the evening. Totally fine the next day. Legs fresh again. Only the butt is a little sore and my left wrist. I have fairly recent accident-related injury on my left wrist so the soreness is probably expected. But no leg nor hand numbness during the 3 hour ride.

Re: Pacing. I may have pushed hard in the first hour there was a strong headwind so I went about chasing slow cars to draft 10 ft behind. Longer duration of z4 effort to catch up to and get in the draft zone. 2nd hour was mostly steep hills which actually felt easier than dealing with headwinds on the flats.

I'm also thinking of avoiding milk in my drinks for now. I've had upset stomach by the time I got home. Would be the first I had problems with milk. Milk never gave me issues before when consumed during rides.

Increase training time by about 10% per week. You body needs time to adapt. For headwinds, treat them as long pass climbs. Gear down, maintain normal cadence and a maintainable pace. Ignore speed completely. Try to get more aero. Go hard on the hills.

IMO minimum effective trainer time is 45'. Most indoor days, maintain a moderate pace, just below VT1: https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-c...2-and-vo2-max/

OK to warm up to that pace over a few minutes. Save the Z4 for the weekend. Once a week, do the fast pedal, steady 120 rpm for as long as you can, up to 40'.

Or instead, do one-legged pedaling drills, indoors only. I prop the lazy foot in the frame triangle https://www.bikeforums.net/training-...l#post21373253

The harder one rides, the more choosy one becomes about what one puts in one's belly, and when, and how often

qwaalodge 04-09-22 05:34 AM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 22465040)
Increase training time by about 10% per week. You body needs time to adapt. For headwinds, treat them as long pass climbs. Gear down, maintain normal cadence and a maintainable pace. Ignore speed completely. Try to get more aero. Go hard on the hills.

IMO minimum effective trainer time is 45'. Most indoor days, maintain a moderate pace, just below VT1: https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-c...2-and-vo2-max/

OK to warm up to that pace over a few minutes. Save the Z4 for the weekend. Once a week, do the fast pedal, steady 120 rpm for as long as you can, up to 40'.

Or instead, do one-legged pedaling drills, indoors only. I prop the lazy foot in the frame triangle https://www.bikeforums.net/training-...l#post21373253

The harder one rides, the more choosy one becomes about what one puts in one's belly, and when, and how often

Will do that when my time frees up, thanks. I'd probably just end up bringing three two bottles of drink, one bottle for wetting my shirt, and strawberry jam sandwich.

Strawberry jam have always worked for me. The rest of the day, I keep a low calorie diet to keep my weight ~130 lbs and BMI of 20.


.

genejockey 04-11-22 11:17 AM


Originally Posted by qwaalodge (Post 22464281)
Coke sounds good! Sounds like a good incentive to bring my insulated pannier bag to keep my drinks cold.

Bad idea to pour cold water on my shirt though?

That's something I do on hot days, although generally it's just whatever temp of water I've got. I squeeze the bottle down my back, and also into one of the vents on the top of my helmet.

guachi 04-13-22 01:12 PM


Originally Posted by qwaalodge (Post 22463497)
I thought just 1 bottle of drink with carbs and electrolytes would be enough in >90F riding temps for three hours

Is losing power quite suddenly is expected for insufficient "fuel"? My legs just suddenly went from being ok to quite sore in just just a matter of minutes past the 2 hr mark and after I depleted my bottle and it happened while I was cruising the flats. I started having a headache too.

One bottle would not be nearly enough for me. I can ride three hours on my trainer inside at 75 and only drink one bottle. But outside, 90, and sunny would easily be three.

And, yes, losing power suddenly is very expected. Could be you bonked from low carbohydrate stores.

qwaalodge 04-13-22 07:48 PM


Originally Posted by guachi (Post 22471304)
One bottle would not be nearly enough for me. I can ride three hours on my trainer inside at 75 and only drink one bottle. But outside, 90, and sunny would easily be three.

And, yes, losing power suddenly is very expected. Could be you bonked from low carbohydrate stores.

Thanks. I suspect out in the road, the temperature could even be higher than the weather report because the road tends to absorb and radiate the heat.

Might be prudent to attach a thermometer at the top tube to see how hot the temperature really is? I suppose 95F would be no-go. Although I could ride 100F but that would be mostly light pedaling and would probably avoid routes with long steep climbs. Probably pointless unless it's only 1 hr recovery ride.

Carbonfiberboy 04-16-22 09:37 PM


Originally Posted by qwaalodge (Post 22471707)
Thanks. I suspect out in the road, the temperature could even be higher than the weather report because the road tends to absorb and radiate the heat.

Might be prudent to attach a thermometer at the top tube to see how hot the temperature really is? I suppose 95F would be no-go. Although I could ride 100F but that would be mostly light pedaling and would probably avoid routes with long steep climbs. Probably pointless unless it's only 1 hr recovery ride.

Training in the heat makes a huge difference. I purposely go out for day rides in the hottest part of the day. That practice also helps one when it's not hot. I've done long pass climbs in 105. Takes a lot of water. I use HR to watch for dehydration. This is only safe if you know where your water sources are. I've gone through 70 oz. of water in 20 miles, maybe half of that climbing, though I was probably a little dehydrated when I started that leg. I've ridden on asphalt so hot that my tires left dents in the road. That sucked.

Google heat shock proteins (HSPs).

GhostRider62 04-17-22 05:14 AM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 22474737)
Training in the heat makes a huge difference. I purposely go out for day rides in the hottest part of the day. That practice also helps one when it's not hot. I've done long pass climbs in 105. Takes a lot of water. I use HR to watch for dehydration. This is only safe if you know where your water sources are. I've gone through 70 oz. of water in 20 miles, maybe half of that climbing, though I was probably a little dehydrated when I started that leg. I've ridden on asphalt so hot that my tires left dents in the road. That sucked.

Google heat shock proteins (HSPs).

Me too.

I don't have the study at hand but I had read that training in hotter conditions also raised plasma volume and therefore stroke volume.

It was brutally hot on TABR in the West. When I got back home on the East coast, I would shiver riding in 75-80F temps. Crazy how the body works. I probably might have been skinny, too. But as usual, I agree......heat acclimation can be trained although the combination of Malaysian sun, high temperatures, and brutal humidity might be too much.....dunno


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