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Water Fasting : the next day

Old 08-24-22, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Yeah, there are a lot of us. Otherwise no one will invite you to dinner. At home, we eat some fish, not a lot. I'd like to eat more wild caught salmon, but it's too expensive. We never eat the farmed stuff. A friend took us prawn "fishing" the other day. Fun, and we got 80 nice prawns in the freezer, probably a year's supply.
I was pesco vegetarian for a time. And I ate all that too.

I'm trying to be polite and say you spelled it wrong! Pisco is a unique distilled spirit!
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Old 08-24-22, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I was pesco vegetarian for a time. And I ate all that too.

I'm trying to be polite and say you spelled it wrong! Pisco is a unique distilled spirit!
Well, I thought Pisces (the constellation), but it's food, so of course it's Italian..
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Old 08-26-22, 01:52 PM
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​​Fasting metabolism becomes effective only when insulin levels drop below a certain amount, low enough to signal the body that it needs to rely on its fat reserves to function. That's when ketogenesis kicks in and you start feeling good. I have never hit the wall when fasting, but those days when i both eat and don't eat enough, i always fail at some point. So i concluded that my metabolism draws that energy from my fat stores. I'm not sure however how important muscle glycogen is on those fasted rides. Can the muscles perform well with depleted glycogen stores? I'm talking about relatively easy rides.
​​​​​i don't understand what exactly happens the next day?​
​​​​​​Is it because my late dinner keeps the insulin high enough to prevent fasting state from kicking in?
or is it the glycogen stores in my muscles that need more times to be regenerated?
I wonder what strategies would allow me to successfully sustain this daily fasting the whole week.
maybe eating lunch instead of dinner so only my morning rides are fasted?
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Old 08-26-22, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
The body needs salt in the system as an agent to make things work. (Sorry, no formal background here at all.) Less salt than that amount and the body suffers. Now the body uses salt but it does not break down salt. So the salt you eat must be eliminated. It works to eliminate the excess by adding it to urine and sweat. But the body does not have a "saltometer" (equivalent of thermometer) that works in real time. All it can do is say that since you regularly intake X amount of salt, it needs to add Y percent of salt into urine and sweat. That works fine on most days but that day you sweat 2 gallons of Y% sweat, you have just emptied your body's salt reserve. Crash time! So the bike rider who regularly eats X salt per day needs to replace a lot of salt on the hot day.

But suppose you eat far less salt every day, like say half? X/2. Well, the body adjusts and just puts Y/2 percent salt in your sweat. Same two gallons of sweat? You just lost and need to replace half as much. Now, this reset of our "saltometers" takes a lot of time. I started in the winter of my big racing year. Shot for no more that 1000mg/day. By summer, my sweat no longer stung when it got in my eyes. I never saw traces of salt on my jersey, even on the hottest and driest days. My clothes felt better after riding. The low salt regime was tough at first but it got easier. Salted foods started tasting too salty. I started seeing how incredibly much salt we eat in this country. It is everywhere. I only did this rigorously for one year but the results were striking. And what a boost in hot weather races!

In the third world there are countries where salt is scarce enough and expensive enough that only the wealthy can afford to buy it and salt their food. The rest simply don't. And do just fine. But if one of us goes to visit those of the working class, we'd better bring salt or we're heading for trouble! And the wealthy make it a point not to eat their food. Class, etc. yes, but also they'd keel over like us.
thank you for your input, i'll try your advice and report the results back.
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Old 08-26-22, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
For the OP, riding fasted depletes you. Simple as that. It's all take-away and no put-back. A riding buddy of mine spent some time in India, where like much of the population, he picked up the habit of fasting one day a week. When he came back here and started riding again, he too was puzzled about his low energy for the 2 days following his fast. That meant he couldn't train as hard as he was used to doing and was gradually getting weaker. I got him to quit the fasting and his energy and training came right back no problem.

I'm Jewish and fasting on Yom Kippur, even though it's only from the end of one dinner to the start of the next, is a significant burden which has to be made up for nutritionally. And I definitely don't exercise on YK!
​​​​​​in my experience fasted exercise is a really nice experience, i feel energetic and my mind is clear and focused.
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Old 08-26-22, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
Yup, I read that the muscles will first look for glycogen or fat, else it will get into protein-burning mode which bad because you need protein for recovery and strengthening the muscles.

The Muslims have a similar fast and during Ramadan just before dinner, everyone rushes to the grocery stores hoarding every food on the shelves! They don't seem to lose weight on the 30-day fast so I suppose they make it all up from 6pm to 12am. Although Ramadan gives you 6 hours to eat, allowing some workout sessions within that time as well. However, I doubt hard workout sessions would be possible.
Fasting induces growth hormone production to preserve the muscles.
Most Muslims eat s'hoor, a sort of breakfast, before dawn, wgich is really stupid because it delays the fasting metabolism go kick in, and besides dehydration (they also don't drink during the day), that's one of the things that keeps them from benefitting from fasting
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Old 08-26-22, 04:04 PM
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Well it takes about 48 hours to fully replete lost glycogen. So if you are depleting that on a very energetic ride with just water and no carbohydrate supplementation and not getting many carbohydrates after the ride, then it's probably going to take longer to replete the used up glycogen.

Of course by only using water during the ride and other times, you'll probably increase the rate at which your body can convert fat to energy. But you'll still probably have to put up with no energy on the second day regardless.

If you do a lower effort ride, say HR zone 2 and low 3 for the first day, you might stand a better chance for feeling decent on the second day if you aren't going to use carbohydrates.

Regardless of your insulin levels, energy from both fat and glycogen stores comprise your energy requirements for any ride. Lower effort rides will use less glycogen. Higher effort rides will use more. Without carbohydrate supplementation, you can run out of glycogen in one hard and long ride.

Of course I might be a little old timey in my thinking and glycogen is outdated stuff. But what ever the new is, It probably requires pretty much the same things to support it.

Last edited by Iride01; 08-26-22 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 08-26-22, 04:43 PM
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To me, this whole exercise while fasting idea seems pretty "out there".

But I'm willing to be convinced, what does the science say?

A quick search found this review article, Exercise Training and Fasting: Current Insights.

The final sentence of the abstract:

Our review of the literature suggests that there is little evidence to support the notion of endurance training and fasting-mediated increases in fat oxidation, and we recommend that endurance athletes should avoid high intensity training while fasting.
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Old 08-27-22, 06:00 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers View Post
Fasting induces growth hormone production to preserve the muscles.
Most Muslims eat s'hoor, a sort of breakfast, before dawn, wgich is really stupid because it delays the fasting metabolism go kick in, and besides dehydration (they also don't drink during the day), that's one of the things that keeps them from benefitting from fasting
The problem with the experience you shared with us, you are very tired the next day.

I can't afford such depleted state because I still have a day job where I still needed to engage >120% of my few remaining brain cells. I'm simply unable to work my brain feeling fatigued or even feeling sick.
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Old 08-27-22, 06:05 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
To me, this whole exercise while fasting idea seems pretty "out there".

But I'm willing to be convinced, what does the science say?

A quick search found this review article, Exercise Training and Fasting: Current Insights.

The final sentence of the abstract:

Our review of the literature suggests that there is little evidence to support the notion of endurance training and fasting-mediated increases in fat oxidation, and we recommend that endurance athletes should avoid high intensity training while fasting.
There are a lot of benefits to fasting that have nothing to do with burning fat. Look into Autophagy. A Nobel Peace Prize was awarded as late as 2017 for Autophagy research. It turns out denying the body any calories for short periods may be the healthiest thing you can do.
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Old 08-27-22, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
There are a lot of benefits to fasting that have nothing to do with burning fat. Look into Autophagy. A Nobel Peace Prize was awarded as late as 2017 for Autophagy research. It turns out denying the body any calories for short periods may be the healthiest thing you can do.
That's an interesting point. We have many built-in systems for dealing with times of no food. Of course. The question really is though, do those who have food insecurity live longer than those who don't? The statistics are pretty devastating. It's the other way, they don't live as long.

But we're talking about food-wealthy individuals choosing to go without, so it's more like lack of hunting success and berry season was long ago. Everything in our physiology was developed over millions of years by natural selection and it's being intimated that going without food from time to time was beneficial to reproductive success, therefore over time we become healthier when we're under 40 if we starve a little from time to time. Or maybe we're just thinner. Longevity doesn't matter as much. It only takes one old ram to find the pastures. My guess is that few posters here are modifying their dietary practices to improve their reproductive success. Or maybe I'm wrong about that . . .

So after a few turns around the mulberry bush, it seems to me there's no causation or even correlation being alleged here between a fasting practice and health. If someone has a study which shows either of those, please post.
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Old 08-27-22, 05:01 PM
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For a long time we've been told not to snack after supper. By long time I mean most if not all of my life. For those of us that don't snack or eat after supper we probably have autophagy going on during sleep. Regardless of what specific diet we follow.

Prior to a few years ago, that was normal stuff. But for some reason lately people want to call it fasting. I guess if that 12 to 18 hours is something you want to call fasting then go for it if the word gives you incentive to not eat before bedtime.
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Old 08-28-22, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
That's an interesting point. We have many built-in systems for dealing with times of no food. Of course. The question really is though, do those who have food insecurity live longer than those who don't? The statistics are pretty devastating. It's the other way, they don't live as long.
That is correct. I deal with some degree of food insecurity from economic difficulties and mental issues from past trauma on top of it. But because of riding and some training, it's even worse, I feel hunger quite often even if I'm doing nothing.

Anyway, fasting or low calorie diet alone (forced or not), won't make you live long or longer. The quality of the food also counts and often, the healthiest foods that are actually quite palatable tends to be expensive. Obviously those with food insecurity would have very limited food options and likely nutrition would be of poor quality.

Lastly, food insecurity is strongly connected to economic stability and quality of life. It's very obvious. Those who deal with food insecurity would have little to no financial stability, low quality of life and quite possibly dealing with very high levels of stress on a daily basis.

Stress is a killer. It seems to dictate the lifespan quite strongly regardless of how healthy or unhealthy you are with other aspects of life. I know so from my poor relatives and now me. If I haven't been riding, I'd be dead by now at 40 from heart attack or stroke from too much stress. Just before I took on riding, I nearly had a heart attack from high levels of stress. So I started exercising. The high levels of stress I deal with daily did not go away but my heart is healthier and no longer does that thing like it wanted to quit on me and can't breath.

I know plenty of obese who live very long lives. 80+ Because they deal with very little stress. I think the only stress they deal with is boredom. I think some might say boredom is a serious source of stress but believe me most rich and bored people live very long lives unless they O'Ded on drugs or crashed their lambo or helicopter into flames. Poor people on the other hand, dealing with intense stress, struggling to play bills and problems cause by economic difficulties, they tend to die around the age of 60 even if they're eating very little. Ironically, an early death could even be a blessing. Who would want to live long dealing with huge amount of stress and either physical or mental pain everyday? No one.
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Old 08-28-22, 05:26 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
That's an interesting point. We have many built-in systems for dealing with times of no food. Of course. The question really is though, do those who have food insecurity live longer than those who don't? The statistics are pretty devastating. It's the other way, they don't live as long.

But we're talking about food-wealthy individuals choosing to go without, so it's more like lack of hunting success and berry season was long ago. Everything in our physiology was developed over millions of years by natural selection and it's being intimated that going without food from time to time was beneficial to reproductive success, therefore over time we become healthier when we're under 40 if we starve a little from time to time. Or maybe we're just thinner. Longevity doesn't matter as much. It only takes one old ram to find the pastures. My guess is that few posters here are modifying their dietary practices to improve their reproductive success. Or maybe I'm wrong about that . . .

So after a few turns around the mulberry bush, it seems to me there's no causation or even correlation being alleged here between a fasting practice and health. If someone has a study which shows either of those, please post.
I don't know what you mean by "food insecurities". Obviously, health depends on good nutrition. I am not talking about starving or reproduction either. It is very clear however that short periods without calories is extremely beneficial to overall health.

Here is a brief Autophagy summery you may find interesting.
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/me...press-release/
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Old 08-28-22, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
I don't know what you mean by "food insecurities". Obviously, health depends on good nutrition. I am not talking about starving or reproduction either. It is very clear however that short periods without calories is extremely beneficial to overall health.

Here is a brief Autophagy summery you may find interesting.
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/me...press-release/
Google it, it's not a made up phrase

It's akin to financial stability is to "financial security". Thus, "food insecurity" means lack of secure food resources. In most cases, this is caused by financial destitution, poverty, warfare, natural calamities, long periods of drought, over-fishing, etc.

This is why people suffering from food insecurity isn't actually healthier. In fact, it's the opposite. I'm in that situation. Food insecurity is almost always caused by financial destitution and this brings enormous stress. High levels of stress can cut your lifespan much shorter than poor eating habits / obesity. Food insecurity will often lead to poor nutrition as well. This is why CFboy mentioned about statistics show the opposite (shorter lifespans) to those under food insecurity. Fasting in the right amounts (conversely, eating less) can actually make you live longer. But if it is forced fasting due to food insecurity, you'll often be dealing with huge amount of stress and that stress will cut your life much shorter than forced fasting can possibly add to your years.
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Old 08-28-22, 06:41 AM
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I guess my point is that food insecurity shouldn't be equated with fasting for health.
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Old 08-28-22, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
I guess my point is that food insecurity shouldn't be equated with fasting for health.
Yes, absolutely, it's completely different scenario. One of them would involve huge amount of unavoidable stress. So they end with shorter lives, getting sick, getting cancer, etc.
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Old 08-28-22, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
Yes, absolutely, it's completely different scenario. One of them would involve huge amount of unavoidable stress. So they end with shorter lives, getting sick, getting cancer, etc.
Lots of factors involved in overall health. The Blue Zone Studies are one of the best tools available when looking for commonality leading to overall health and longevity. Stress and how we process it is a vital part of the whole. Strenuous exercise is very beneficial in reducing stress. Meditation is another excellent tool. I like to combine both and cycle. I find it very necessary to engage a couple hours in some activity that I do only for the pure joy of doing it. I don't carry a phone or any device to record my progress when I cycle. I kayak tour a bit as well. I do both just for the enjoyment of living in that moment. Both are my stress relief valves and meditation vehicles. Good luck.
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Old 08-28-22, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
I don't know what you mean by "food insecurities". Obviously, health depends on good nutrition. I am not talking about starving or reproduction either. It is very clear however that short periods without calories is extremely beneficial to overall health.

Here is a brief Autophagy summery you may find interesting.
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/me...press-release/
That's actually funny.

Yes, very good. Autophagy is the primary reason we sleep. Even spiders sleep, probably same reason. We also sort memories in our sleep, very helpful.

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/blog/autophagy.html
Autophagy happens while we're sleepingóbecause that's when we're fasting.
"If you eat a 30-inch pizza before bed, you're not going to have any autophagy," Dr. Gottlieb says.
"That means you're not going to take out the trash, so the cells begin to accumulate more and more debris."
Hence we are frequently advised not to eat too close to bed time.
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Old 08-28-22, 09:11 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
Lots of factors involved in overall health. The Blue Zone Studies are one of the best tools available when looking for commonality leading to overall health and longevity. Stress and how we process it is a vital part of the whole. Strenuous exercise is very beneficial in reducing stress. Meditation is another excellent tool. I like to combine both and cycle. I find it very necessary to engage a couple hours in some activity that I do only for the pure joy of doing it. I don't carry a phone or any device to record my progress when I cycle. I kayak tour a bit as well. I do both just for the enjoyment of living in that moment. Both are my stress relief valves and meditation vehicles. Good luck.
I do some of them like I stopped using Strava and no onboard computer. Strava stops working on the mountains where I actually needed them, no signal!!!

I meditate frequently as well. But cycling + meditation is still not enough for the stresses I'm dealing with. I suppose not everyone is fortunate!
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Old 08-28-22, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
That's actually funny.

Yes, very good. Autophagy is the primary reason we sleep. Even spiders sleep, probably same reason. We also sort memories in our sleep, very helpful.

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/blog/autophagy.html


Hence we are frequently advised not to eat too close to bed time.
You are only looking at the summary. Yes, some levels of Autophagy occur regardless. You can do a deep dive into this though and clearly see significant reasons to periodically fast 24-48 hours. You can also just dismiss it as information you don't need, but I think that would be a mistake.
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Old 08-28-22, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
I do some of them like I stopped using Strava and no onboard computer. Strava stops working on the mountains where I actually needed them, no signal!!!

I meditate frequently as well. But cycling + meditation is still not enough for the stresses I'm dealing with. I suppose not everyone is fortunate!
I think everyone is fortunate in different ways. I'm sorry for whatever stress you are having to deal with. I can however tell you that my only path to happiness is to cultivate gratefulness. I can always find plenty of reasons to feel less fortunate than someone else. That's easy. What's hard, but worth doing is to find reasons I'm more fortunate than someone else. One leaves me feeling stressed but the other leaves me feeling grateful. I like the later feeling a lot better.
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Old 08-28-22, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
That is correct. I deal with some degree of food insecurity from economic difficulties and mental issues from past trauma on top of it. But because of riding and some training, it's even worse, I feel hunger quite often even if I'm doing nothing.

Anyway, fasting or low calorie diet alone (forced or not), won't make you live long or longer. The quality of the food also counts and often, the healthiest foods that are actually quite palatable tends to be expensive. Obviously those with food insecurity would have very limited food options and likely nutrition would be of poor quality.

Lastly, food insecurity is strongly connected to economic stability and quality of life. It's very obvious. Those who deal with food insecurity would have little to no financial stability, low quality of life and quite possibly dealing with very high levels of stress on a daily basis.

Stress is a killer. It seems to dictate the lifespan quite strongly regardless of how healthy or unhealthy you are with other aspects of life. I know so from my poor relatives and now me. If I haven't been riding, I'd be dead by now at 40 from heart attack or stroke from too much stress. Just before I took on riding, I nearly had a heart attack from high levels of stress. So I started exercising. The high levels of stress I deal with daily did not go away but my heart is healthier and no longer does that thing like it wanted to quit on me and can't breath.

I know plenty of obese who live very long lives. 80+ Because they deal with very little stress. I think the only stress they deal with is boredom. I think some might say boredom is a serious source of stress but believe me most rich and bored people live very long lives unless they O'Ded on drugs or crashed their lambo or helicopter into flames. Poor people on the other hand, dealing with intense stress, struggling to play bills and problems cause by economic difficulties, they tend to die around the age of 60 even if they're eating very little. Ironically, an early death could even be a blessing. Who would want to live long dealing with huge amount of stress and either physical or mental pain everyday? No one.
Oy. That's the story of too many Americans, a story which is too often suppressed. Thank you. I am very happy to be 77 and am sad for younger people who aren't as lucky. There are millions of Africans dying of hunger right now, experiencing autophagy and being largely ignored. There's no money in it.
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Old 08-28-22, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Oy. That's the story of too many Americans, a story which is too often suppressed. Thank you. I am very happy to be 77 and am sad for younger people who aren't as lucky. There are millions of Africans dying of hunger right now, experiencing autophagy and being largely ignored. There's no money in it.
Media/entertainment avoids showing things that don't make money. "Invest money on the winners, not the losers". Bad news, sad stuff, the "reality" makes people indulge less in spending and that's not good for the economy. Once in the blue moon, they would promote "investing" on the less fortunate but only to avoid getting accused of being greedy and cold.

The big problem is not everyone can have at least middle class lifestyles. The planet simply don't have the resources for it. But the last thing this world needs, is further shift resources away from those in dire in need of it because of greed fueled by media / entertainment / internet "pollution".

I would not have known about the dire African situation have you not mentioned it and if I did not make a search. All the random stuff I get bombarded with are middle class and rich celebrity stuff. I never even click those links. They force feed this garbage on everyone.
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Old 08-28-22, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
I think everyone is fortunate in different ways. I'm sorry for whatever stress you are having to deal with. I can however tell you that my only path to happiness is to cultivate gratefulness. I can always find plenty of reasons to feel less fortunate than someone else. That's easy. What's hard, but worth doing is to find reasons I'm more fortunate than someone else. One leaves me feeling stressed but the other leaves me feeling grateful. I like the later feeling a lot better.
I count my blessings as well, creative imagination, music. All these cumulatively help. There was a time it countered all my stresses, but now, they got too big! Hopefully 2023 would be different in a good way.
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