Polarised versus time crunched HIIT -a question
08-14-23, 02:21 PM
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Every thread on this topic should contain a zone definition relative to the lactate curve or some other objective measure, otherwise we get the usual Tower of Babel.
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08-14-23, 03:48 PM
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kcjc "Who the heck is Coggins?" I stand corrected. Thank you.
I read the Training and racing with a power meter by Allen & Coggan and a couple of books from Chris Carmichael at about the same time some years back. I must admit it has all blurred a bit. Upon reflection I think it was Carmichael espousing HIIT...
Must go, the trainer calls.
I read the Training and racing with a power meter by Allen & Coggan and a couple of books from Chris Carmichael at about the same time some years back. I must admit it has all blurred a bit. Upon reflection I think it was Carmichael espousing HIIT...
Must go, the trainer calls.
08-15-23, 07:59 PM
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VT1 is the physiological marker where lactate begins to accumulate and glycolytic metabolism increases and the breathing rate and depth increases. If you exceed VT1, you are not in zone 2 in anyone's scheme.
The Tower of Babel over acronyms is because the Exercise Physiologists concocted them and have ownership/pride over their jargon and they are strong minded and often get thrown off forums due the bickering. Some of the rest of use just get confused, most think FTP is a physiological marker representing the max power one can hold for one hour. It isn't
The Tower of Babel over acronyms is because the Exercise Physiologists concocted them and have ownership/pride over their jargon and they are strong minded and often get thrown off forums due the bickering. Some of the rest of use just get confused, most think FTP is a physiological marker representing the max power one can hold for one hour. It isn't
08-16-23, 05:53 AM
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My emphasis above. To that statement - yes and no. I think it depends entirely on the type of event one is trying to perform in. For me, a training diet of 95% z2, 6 to 9 hours per week, from December to May, had me performing better in spring brevets than I ever did before. In past years, my preparation included a lot of z3, z4, and z5 riding, but my endurance and 'durability' was poor with that older approach. I was putting in slightly less time on the bike overall then. About 5 to 7 hours per week. GhostRider62 was very helpful in providing inspiration and guidance to try things a different way, and I couldn't be happier with how it turned out. My z4 and z5 performance probably sucks, but it's basically irrelevant, for me, as I would not typically alter my chosen pace at any given time to try to ride with others, be they slower or faster. I did a lot of solo riding in those brevets, but that's fine by me. Comparing my riding between last year and this year, I am now riding a bit faster, with a 10-20 bpm lower heart rate, with much greater bonk resistance and much less tendency for my legs to fade as the miles go by.
For someone who wants to do a double century or similar long distance event, but specifically in a group setting with pack of riders, they need to care very much about their z4 and 5 power, so they don't get dropped on the hills, etc. So they might still want to have a z2 based training plan, but they need to do a couple 4-week blocks of different length intervals as they approach their event. And maybe even do an abbreviated interval workout every 10 days or something like that during their build up / base phase.
For someone who wants to do a double century or similar long distance event, but specifically in a group setting with pack of riders, they need to care very much about their z4 and 5 power, so they don't get dropped on the hills, etc. So they might still want to have a z2 based training plan, but they need to do a couple 4-week blocks of different length intervals as they approach their event. And maybe even do an abbreviated interval workout every 10 days or something like that during their build up / base phase.
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08-16-23, 06:59 AM
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VT1 is the physiological marker where lactate begins to accumulate and glycolytic metabolism increases and the breathing rate and depth increases. If you exceed VT1, you are not in zone 2 in anyone's scheme.
The Tower of Babel over acronyms is because the Exercise Physiologists concocted them and have ownership/pride over their jargon and they are strong minded and often get thrown off forums due the bickering. Some of the rest of use just get confused, most think FTP is a physiological marker representing the max power one can hold for one hour. It isn't
The Tower of Babel over acronyms is because the Exercise Physiologists concocted them and have ownership/pride over their jargon and they are strong minded and often get thrown off forums due the bickering. Some of the rest of use just get confused, most think FTP is a physiological marker representing the max power one can hold for one hour. It isn't
08-16-23, 07:35 AM
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If they define it that way, they're not reputable. Saves time, though -- I just read until I see that and then I move on. I do the same thing when I see someone saying that FTP is 95% of 20 minute max.
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08-16-23, 09:37 AM
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I am sure there are finer distinctions I am missing, but I understood the following general equivalencies to be correct:
LT1, VT1, aerobic threshold, MAF, top of Coggan Z2, and top of Seiler Z1 - all correspond to about the same intensity whereby lactate is above resting levels, but only a little, perhaps 1 mmol/L higher. Also signaled by a acceleration in ventilation rate.
LT2, VT2, anaerobic threshold, FTP, and top of Seiler Z2 - all correspond to about the same intensity. Above this intensity, lactate will not reach any steady state and will keep increasing till exhaustion.
Is this generally correct? Is it correct ENOUGH for those of us not following a strict training plan, but need some basic points of reference to guide our efforts?
LT1, VT1, aerobic threshold, MAF, top of Coggan Z2, and top of Seiler Z1 - all correspond to about the same intensity whereby lactate is above resting levels, but only a little, perhaps 1 mmol/L higher. Also signaled by a acceleration in ventilation rate.
LT2, VT2, anaerobic threshold, FTP, and top of Seiler Z2 - all correspond to about the same intensity. Above this intensity, lactate will not reach any steady state and will keep increasing till exhaustion.
Is this generally correct? Is it correct ENOUGH for those of us not following a strict training plan, but need some basic points of reference to guide our efforts?
Last edited by Steamer; 08-16-23 at 09:43 AM.
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08-17-23, 11:25 AM
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I can't define MLSS but know it when I feel it.
And this from RChung is so true....
I like to ride my bike and have time. I hate intervals but like eating broccoli as a child, I do them.
Edit: But only in summer
And this from RChung is so true....
It's almost as if training should take into account what your goals are. And goals can change over time.
Edit: But only in summer
Last edited by GhostRider62; 08-17-23 at 01:47 PM.
08-18-23, 11:22 AM
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If you like needles, here a good listing of methods for determine LT1/2, https://upsidestrength.com/blog/lact...nterpretation/ or you can fumble with heart rate, 65-80% of max (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactat...bic_thresholds). Personally, I go by top of Coggan zone 2 and lower bound of zone 4 and call it a day.
08-22-23, 08:29 AM
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If you like needles, here a good listing of methods for determine LT1/2, https://upsidestrength.com/blog/lact...nterpretation/ or you can fumble with heart rate, 65-80% of max (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactat...bic_thresholds). Personally, I go by top of Coggan zone 2 and lower bound of zone 4 and call it a day.
