Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Polarised versus time crunched HIIT -a question

Notices
Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Polarised versus time crunched HIIT -a question

Old 08-14-23, 01:23 PM
  #26  
Zircon Encrusted Tweezers
 
Steamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: high ground
Posts: 1,337
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 253 Post(s)
Liked 123 Times in 80 Posts
Originally Posted by kcjc
...Dr. Stephen Seilor ...
FWIW, his last name is spelled Seiler.
Steamer is offline  
Old 08-14-23, 02:21 PM
  #27  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 11,604

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9638 Post(s)
Liked 5,427 Times in 2,904 Posts
Every thread on this topic should contain a zone definition relative to the lactate curve or some other objective measure, otherwise we get the usual Tower of Babel.
MoAlpha is online now  
Likes For MoAlpha:
Old 08-14-23, 02:25 PM
  #28  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 203
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 25 Posts
kcjc is offline  
Old 08-14-23, 03:48 PM
  #29  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
kcjc "Who the heck is Coggins?" I stand corrected. Thank you.
I read the Training and racing with a power meter by Allen & Coggan and a couple of books from Chris Carmichael at about the same time some years back. I must admit it has all blurred a bit. Upon reflection I think it was Carmichael espousing HIIT...
Must go, the trainer calls.
Al Bundy is offline  
Old 08-15-23, 07:59 PM
  #30  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,091 Times in 1,310 Posts
VT1 is the physiological marker where lactate begins to accumulate and glycolytic metabolism increases and the breathing rate and depth increases. If you exceed VT1, you are not in zone 2 in anyone's scheme.

The Tower of Babel over acronyms is because the Exercise Physiologists concocted them and have ownership/pride over their jargon and they are strong minded and often get thrown off forums due the bickering. Some of the rest of use just get confused, most think FTP is a physiological marker representing the max power one can hold for one hour. It isn't
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 08-16-23, 05:53 AM
  #31  
Perceptual Dullard
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,283
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 818 Post(s)
Liked 970 Times in 417 Posts
Originally Posted by Steamer
My emphasis above. To that statement - yes and no. I think it depends entirely on the type of event one is trying to perform in. For me, a training diet of 95% z2, 6 to 9 hours per week, from December to May, had me performing better in spring brevets than I ever did before. In past years, my preparation included a lot of z3, z4, and z5 riding, but my endurance and 'durability' was poor with that older approach. I was putting in slightly less time on the bike overall then. About 5 to 7 hours per week. GhostRider62 was very helpful in providing inspiration and guidance to try things a different way, and I couldn't be happier with how it turned out. My z4 and z5 performance probably sucks, but it's basically irrelevant, for me, as I would not typically alter my chosen pace at any given time to try to ride with others, be they slower or faster. I did a lot of solo riding in those brevets, but that's fine by me. Comparing my riding between last year and this year, I am now riding a bit faster, with a 10-20 bpm lower heart rate, with much greater bonk resistance and much less tendency for my legs to fade as the miles go by.

For someone who wants to do a double century or similar long distance event, but specifically in a group setting with pack of riders, they need to care very much about their z4 and 5 power, so they don't get dropped on the hills, etc. So they might still want to have a z2 based training plan, but they need to do a couple 4-week blocks of different length intervals as they approach their event. And maybe even do an abbreviated interval workout every 10 days or something like that during their build up / base phase.
It's almost as if training should take into account what your goals are. And goals can change over time.
RChung is offline  
Likes For RChung:
Old 08-16-23, 06:59 AM
  #32  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 11,604

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9638 Post(s)
Liked 5,427 Times in 2,904 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62
VT1 is the physiological marker where lactate begins to accumulate and glycolytic metabolism increases and the breathing rate and depth increases. If you exceed VT1, you are not in zone 2 in anyone's scheme.

The Tower of Babel over acronyms is because the Exercise Physiologists concocted them and have ownership/pride over their jargon and they are strong minded and often get thrown off forums due the bickering. Some of the rest of use just get confused, most think FTP is a physiological marker representing the max power one can hold for one hour. It isn't
Yeah, FTP is a particular point of confusion and I have seen countless reputable sources define it as above.
MoAlpha is online now  
Old 08-16-23, 07:35 AM
  #33  
Perceptual Dullard
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,283
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 818 Post(s)
Liked 970 Times in 417 Posts
Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Yeah, FTP is a particular point of confusion and I have seen countless reputable sources define it as above.
If they define it that way, they're not reputable. Saves time, though -- I just read until I see that and then I move on. I do the same thing when I see someone saying that FTP is 95% of 20 minute max.
RChung is offline  
Likes For RChung:
Old 08-16-23, 09:09 AM
  #34  
Zircon Encrusted Tweezers
 
Steamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: high ground
Posts: 1,337
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 253 Post(s)
Liked 123 Times in 80 Posts
Originally Posted by RChung
It's almost as if training should take into account what your goals are. And goals can change over time.
Yeah, how about that. Amazing concept, really.
Steamer is offline  
Old 08-16-23, 09:37 AM
  #35  
Zircon Encrusted Tweezers
 
Steamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: high ground
Posts: 1,337
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 253 Post(s)
Liked 123 Times in 80 Posts
I am sure there are finer distinctions I am missing, but I understood the following general equivalencies to be correct:

LT1, VT1, aerobic threshold, MAF, top of Coggan Z2, and top of Seiler Z1 - all correspond to about the same intensity whereby lactate is above resting levels, but only a little, perhaps 1 mmol/L higher. Also signaled by a acceleration in ventilation rate.

LT2, VT2, anaerobic threshold, FTP, and top of Seiler Z2 - all correspond to about the same intensity. Above this intensity, lactate will not reach any steady state and will keep increasing till exhaustion.

Is this generally correct? Is it correct ENOUGH for those of us not following a strict training plan, but need some basic points of reference to guide our efforts?

Last edited by Steamer; 08-16-23 at 09:43 AM.
Steamer is offline  
Likes For Steamer:
Old 08-17-23, 11:25 AM
  #36  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,091 Times in 1,310 Posts
I can't define MLSS but know it when I feel it.

And this from RChung is so true....

It's almost as if training should take into account what your goals are. And goals can change over time.
I like to ride my bike and have time. I hate intervals but like eating broccoli as a child, I do them.

Edit: But only in summer

Last edited by GhostRider62; 08-17-23 at 01:47 PM.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 08-18-23, 11:22 AM
  #37  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 203
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 25 Posts
If you like needles, here a good listing of methods for determine LT1/2, https://upsidestrength.com/blog/lact...nterpretation/ or you can fumble with heart rate, 65-80% of max (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactat...bic_thresholds). Personally, I go by top of Coggan zone 2 and lower bound of zone 4 and call it a day.
kcjc is offline  
Old 08-22-23, 08:29 AM
  #38  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 11,604

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9638 Post(s)
Liked 5,427 Times in 2,904 Posts
Originally Posted by kcjc
If you like needles, here a good listing of methods for determine LT1/2, https://upsidestrength.com/blog/lact...nterpretation/ or you can fumble with heart rate, 65-80% of max (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactat...bic_thresholds). Personally, I go by top of Coggan zone 2 and lower bound of zone 4 and call it a day.
Just lancets, but yeah, fingers are sore for a day.
MoAlpha is online now  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.