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Something smells fishy

Old 08-13-23, 12:39 PM
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Something smells fishy

Today a local racer won 2 race in the same day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon.
I've done the race in the morning, during the entire race my heart rate were 96% with a peak of 102%. I ended the race at 36/104 (not super but also not bad, I'm happy to have won the second place of my category).
As now I feel my legs tires and lots of lactic acid, probably more than usual since I suffered a lot the thirsting. The other racer I start talking at the begging, keep the speed of 3miles/hours more than the pursuers group.
Is really possible to archive such as training?

Edit. This is not crying, I admit to be less powerful than him, he just seems coming from another planet!

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Old 08-13-23, 04:49 PM
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Sure it's possible. You saw it happen didn't you?

Likely reason is the person rides many more kilometers/miles per year than any of the others participating.
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Old 08-13-23, 05:06 PM
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Sure, itís possible. Iíve seen it happen, and have come close to it myself (win and top-5).
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Old 08-13-23, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Sure it's possible. You saw it happen didn't you?

Likely reason is the person rides many more kilometers/miles per year than any of the others participating.
nope, he rides less miles than other locals.
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Old 08-13-23, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Sure, itís possible. Iíve seen it happen, and have come close to it myself (win and top-5).
tnx for telling me.
this is absolutely s tunning training level. definitely i have to get better for next year racing!
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Old 08-13-23, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CrowSeph
nope, he rides less miles than other locals.
Well it's okay to have some healthy skepticism. But don't let that be a reason to claim something is amiss until you have some actual evidence otherwise.
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Old 08-13-23, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CrowSeph
tnx for telling me.
this is absolutely s tunning training level. definitely i have to get better for next year racing!
Compared to a lot of people I raced against, I did less miles. However, I did the work that kept my best weapon - sprinting - tuned up. Not just peak power for the sprint itself, but the FTP development to keep from burning matches as the pace ramped up before the final sprint.
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Old 08-14-23, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Well it's okay to have some healthy skepticism. But don't let that be a reason to claim something is amiss until you have some actual evidence otherwise.
I did not claim nothing, just asking if is possible to get this well trained.
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Old 08-14-23, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CrowSeph
I did not claim nothing, just asking if is possible to get this well trained.
Genetics are not a level playing field. For some individuals it is possible, for others it is not. But most people are operating well below their genetic limit so there is almost always scope to improve significantly.
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Old 08-14-23, 03:57 AM
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I'm curious how you're so well informed on his and others training miles? And how big are the differences?

I would also add, that there are many ways to train and some methods are better than others.



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Old 08-14-23, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by work4bike
I'm curious how you're so well informed on his and others training miles? And how big are the differences?

.
Probably from their Strava profiles.
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Old 08-14-23, 04:09 AM
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Oh yeah, as you can tell I'm not on Strava
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Old 08-14-23, 04:31 AM
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Once we had an autocross where it was raining in the morning so we split the heats into morning and afternoon runs to allow it to dry up. Long story short my fastest time in the morning wet session was still faster than anyone in the later dry session. Lol
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Old 08-14-23, 07:47 AM
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Lots of people double up. I've seen the winner of one race compete seriously in the second. Though I've never seen someone win two, it doesn't strike me as that suspicious.

What were the race classes? For example, if a Cat 3 wins the Cat 1/2/3 race in the morning and then Cat 3/4 race in the afternoon, then this is somebody who will soon be a Cat 2 or Cat 1. It's somebody on their way up. Or maybe they won a master's race in the morning and the Cat 3/4 in the afternoon....That's somebody who is just very good at their level.
Either way, there are reasonable scenarios.
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Old 08-14-23, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Lots of people double up. I've seen the winner of one race compete seriously in the second. Though I've never seen someone win two, it doesn't strike me as that suspicious.

What were the race classes? For example, if a Cat 3 wins the Cat 1/2/3 race in the morning and then Cat 3/4 race in the afternoon, then this is somebody who will soon be a Cat 2 or Cat 1. It's somebody on their way up. Or maybe they won a master's race in the morning and the Cat 3/4 in the afternoon....That's somebody who is just very good at their level.
Either way, there are reasonable scenarios.
Yep. For me, it was a Cat 3 win in the morning, and a 5th in 30+ 1/2/3 a couple hours later. This was shortly before my Cat 2 upgrade. A couple years before, there was a Cat 3 who won both races. Thankfully, for the rest of us, he moved to another part of the country.
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Old 08-14-23, 10:08 AM
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I guess the other question might be what kind of race was it. Or was it more of just a ride where everyone does whatever they want. With either, if riding in a paceline is allowed, then a paceline with all strong riders will easily out pace others by quite a bit.

And if you are only looking at this persons stat's on some website or race posting, then you don't necessarily know if they rode in a paceline or not unless the race doesn't allow that or is the type of race where groups or pacelines isn't a benefit.

Pacelines and even riding in loose groups saves a lot of watts you can use later or expend at a steady pace to keep a high average speed.
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Old 08-14-23, 11:14 AM
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There was that time that Floyd Landis showed up for his first road race in Argyle socks and won by 15'. Genetics does matter. That was cruel, though.
So Quoted: Two Floyd Landis stories
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Old 08-15-23, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CrowSeph
Today a local racer won 2 race in the same day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon.
I've done the race in the morning, during the entire race my heart rate were 96% with a peak of 102%. I ended the race at 36/104 (not super but also not bad, I'm happy to have won the second place of my category).
As now I feel my legs tires and lots of lactic acid, probably more than usual since I suffered a lot the thirsting. The other racer I start talking at the begging, keep the speed of 3miles/hours more than the pursuers group.
Is really possible to archive such as training?

Edit. This is not crying, I admit to be less powerful than him, he just seems coming from another planet!

​​​
Do your local races check for PEDs? I'm discovering that more guys than not in my circle of acquaintances are taking testosterone and probably more. I was surprised to realize how many guys who aren't even competing anymore are using PEDs just for club rides or to git them gains in the gym.
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Old 08-16-23, 05:20 AM
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The race was "all allowed".
- no special rules
- paceline allowed
- race cat was assigned by age
- zero antidoping check no peds cheeck (this year i completed the antire race season and not a single one has done any inspection)
- female and male racers all in one course
- they cheeck for mechanical-doping since every lap calculate your speed-rate, in case they found a massive gap since last lap they will suspend you from results.

ps. the second place guy was an old Giro's pro disqualified for doping. sadly after covid every cycling-society that organize races decided to bring back everyone suspended due to doping. But again, i'am talking to the 2nd and not the winner.
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Old 08-16-23, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CrowSeph
I did not claim nothing, just asking if is possible to get this well trained.
The title of your thread seems to claim something.

Something smells fishy
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Old 08-16-23, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
The title of your thread seems to claim something.

indeed. behind the irony i was really asking if that was normal or not.
thats the reason why i typed, to learn something new to me.
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Old 08-16-23, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CrowSeph
The race was "all allowed"...
- zero antidoping check no peds cheeck (this year i completed the entire race season and not a single one has done any inspection)
...
ps. the second place guy was an old Giro's pro disqualified for doping. sadly after covid every cycling-society that organize races decided to bring back everyone suspended due to doping. But again, i'am talking to the 2nd and not the winner.
Welp, there ya go. Do you think guys who'll spend as much money as they do on bikes and gear for racing will hesitate to spend $50-$300 a month for testosterone replacement therapy, especially if they're over age 40? Especially if there are no checks, nothing to lose but the race?

Hell, my T level plummeted after age 60 when I developed thyroid cancer. My energy level was still okay until two years ago when the bottom fell out and I could barely ride a bike at all until this year. I went from running to jogging to barely walking fast.

I'm right at the low threshold for TRT, but my VA doc won't authorize it because (1) it's not "medically necessary" and quality of life isn't a factor; and (2) concerns over complications due to my thyroid insufficiency. Basically my local VA has gone from excellent in 2018-2019 to barely adequate due to complications from the pandemic and economic crisis -- short staffing, budget cuts, unofficial pressure to cut costs by minimizing care to "medically necessary". I *could* go to a private practice doc and get authorization, and probably will this year.

I was surprised by how easy it is to get a doctor's authorization and how cheap testosterone is. One of my friends has been taking it on and off for years, mostly to keep up with a physically demanding job (owner/operator and sometimes sole employee), and to have reserve energy for gym workouts, mostly weightlifting since it's beneficial to his work. With a discount prescription plan and no insurance it costs as little as $40 a month.

I've tried all kinds of natural, non-prescription supplements and they barely help. Among the very few that produced any noticeable improvement are DHEA and beta ecdysterone (from the cyanotis arachnoidea root in China). Quality varies wildly in potency, prices are all over the place. But a good batch has a noticeable effect within days. Not a miracle, but the difference between barely spinning an easy gear and stomping up a climb in the big chainring. It helps with strength, not aerobic capacity. I haven't found an alternative source from shellfish and bug exoskeletons -- presumably more difficult to harvest and prepare for safe shipping and consumption, and distasteful to some consumers.

Beta ecdysterone is being evaluated by WADA as a PED, but no decision has been made AFAIK. It's more used in Russia and Eastern Europe than elsewhere, apparently mostly by weightlifters. Just scuttlebutt via various forums. I don't know anyone personally who's tried it, presumably because it's not worth the bother and expense when they can get testosterone and HGH. Hell, apparently it's so common one of my women friends who works in health care and is a competitive cyclist asked why I'm not already taking TRT and HGH, as if it's perfectly normal in her circle.

But I'm ready to try my friend's doc and give TRT a try for a few months. I get checkups and blood tests done twice a year through the VA so if there's any unwanted complications from TRT, it'll be caught in time. I'm cautious about my health and won't risk the complications stereotypically associated with misuse of testosterone. But those complications are grossly exaggerated in the media, while the safe benefits are underreported.

I'm not going to race. At 65 I'm too old to risk anything other perhaps than a time trial. I've had enough fractures from my misspent youth in boxing and crashing bicycles and motorcycles. But my annual cycling has plummeted from 5,000-6,000 miles a year to less than 1,000 miles a year. And my average speed on familiar routes from 17 mph solo (faster with groups) to 12-13 mph in only two years. That ain't just normal aging.

Anyway, I'm not advocating cheating through doping. But you can bet some of your fellow racers are taking PEDs.
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Old 08-25-23, 06:41 AM
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CrowSeph , and as if to confirm my hunch that many more middle age and older folks are on hormone replacement therapy than we realized... including women during and after menopause...

I just switched primary care providers (Medicare, not VA -- I still have the same VA doc who isn't a fan of TRT), because my former PCP clinic was an empty suit -- rarely answered their phones or returned messages, and in three years I'd never even met the doctor, just the NP or PA. And that old clinic was too far away anyhow.

First thing my new PCP did during my intake workout was to suggest lab testing and a thorough review of my VA medical records to see if testosterone replacement therapy would benefit me. They saw that my most recent lab work indicated borderline low testosterone and were surprised the other doctor hadn't already mentioned it.

I suspect my old doc was only familiar with a flawed study from about a decade ago that considered TRT unnecessary for older people. So the VA veered from dispensing testosterone patches like vitamins to withholding TRT completely. But that study has since been debunked as flawed. Current studies indicate TRT at therapeutic level can improve bone density and overall health.

IOW, if you're a middle aged or older amateur racer or athlete participating in events that don't do PED testing, you're probably at a significant disadvantage next to your fellow cyclists who are on medically supervised therapeutic TRT -- not the same thing at all as young athletes in their primes misusing PEDs to gain an advantage over their peers. My new doc also discussed the need for followups to check for dangerously high RBC level, and said the usual quick solution is to simply donate blood, the adjust the TRT as needed to maintain a healthy and safe level.

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