Legs cramping before they're tired.
This is killing me. I can NOT figure out what's going on. This year, I've been fighting cramps like never before. I realize that getting older - turned 55 in June - comes with lots of general changes/breakdowns, etc. But this seems like a switch flipped.
Background: - 6'0, 175lbs - been ridding for 50 years (really) - raced off and on since I was 12 - never higher than Cat2 mtb - I'm that typical "club fast" guy who can hang on most group rides... but wouldn't stand a chance in an actual road race above Cat 4 ;-) Recently - past two months - my legs have been cramping BAD after 2 hours or so. I mean bad like standing on the side of the road doing lamaze breathing thinking my hamstring is going to tear itself off the bone. Also, not just my hamstrings. 5 weeks ago, I had both quads and one hamstrings conducting a symphony of cramps while I used the bike to balance. You could see the waves running through my quads. It was quite entertaining... for my buddies who stood by. (one of the guys went full Mr. Miyagi and kneaded my hamstring and got it to settle down) I've been reading articles on hydration, magnesium, potassium, electrolytes... I've changed a lot with my pre-ride (including the day before) diet and fluid intake. I've started using electrolyte tablets, switched to Skratch powder... I make sure to start the ride "topped off', drink 24 oz/hr, etc, etc... There's been some improvement. Maybe. But I feel like I'm missing something. Like, it shouldn't be this bad this soon. Saturday marked my first ever DNF in a mtn bike race. 2-hours in, one hamstring just imploded. That kind of cramp where there's no "pushing through it." I was simply unable to control my leg. I was done for the day. The odd part is that the cramps hit HARD with very little warning and before my legs are tired. Earlier this summer, I would've said it happens without any warning. But there is a warning. Just before my hamstrings - either one - goes, my leg feels vaguely loose or numb. Then, within 30 seconds - BAM! the cramp hits. Saturday, I felt that sensation, coasted to a stop, unclipped just before it hit. If any of you guys have had similar experiences could direct me to some good research, articles, witch doctors... Thanks! |
whenever I hear cramps, I think of
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Originally Posted by Zaskar
(Post 23011955)
This is killing me. I can NOT figure out what's going on. This year, I've been fighting cramps like never before. I realize that getting older - turned 55 in June - comes with lots of general changes/breakdowns, etc. But this seems like a switch flipped.
Background: - 6'0, 175lbs - been ridding for 50 years (really) - raced off and on since I was 12 - never higher than Cat2 mtb - I'm that typical "club fast" guy who can hang on most group rides... but wouldn't stand a chance in an actual road race above Cat 4 ;-) Recently - past two months - my legs have been cramping BAD after 2 hours or so. I mean bad like standing on the side of the road doing lamaze breathing thinking my hamstring is going to tear itself off the bone. Also, not just my hamstrings. 5 weeks ago, I had both quads and one hamstrings conducting a symphony of cramps while I used the bike to balance. You could see the waves running through my quads. It was quite entertaining... for my buddies who stood by. (one of the guys went full Mr. Miyagi and kneaded my hamstring and got it to settle down) I've been reading articles on hydration, magnesium, potassium, electrolytes... I've changed a lot with my pre-ride (including the day before) diet and fluid intake. I've started using electrolyte tablets, switched to Skratch powder... I make sure to start the ride "topped off', drink 24 oz/hr, etc, etc... There's been some improvement. Maybe. But I feel like I'm missing something. Like, it shouldn't be this bad this soon. Saturday marked my first ever DNF in a mtn bike race. 2-hours in, one hamstring just imploded. That kind of cramp where there's no "pushing through it." I was simply unable to control my leg. I was done for the day. The odd part is that the cramps hit HARD with very little warning and before my legs are tired. Earlier this summer, I would've said it happens without any warning. But there is a warning. Just before my hamstrings - either one - goes, my leg feels vaguely loose or numb. Then, within 30 seconds - BAM! the cramp hits. Saturday, I felt that sensation, coasted to a stop, unclipped just before it hit. If any of you guys have had similar experiences could direct me to some good research, articles, witch doctors... Thanks! |
As we get less young, it seems our intake of medications can increase. Some medications have listed way down in the side effects (somewhere under "may grow extra limbs" and "spontaneous combustion") that they may cause or increase the intensity of cramps. I started noticing this painful phenomenon about when I was in my mid-50s. As in my case it would be worse overall to go off the meds, I do what runrunn6 says and pre-load with potassium and magnesium before a ride, and during the ride if it's a longer one (with my diet, sodium isn't typically a problem). It hasn't eliminated cramping, but it has helped. Another thing I try to do is ride at a power threshold where I am less likely to cramp but still finish in a reasonable time.
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Agreed; with that kind of abrupt change, and no corresponding change in diet or level of effort, you need an explanation. See your doc; something seems off. You didn't suddenly get old one day, or cross some age threshold. I'd go so far as to say if your doc mentions age as cause, find a new doc.
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I also cramp way more than I did when I was young and in some surprising muscle groups. Forget the electrolytes; that's been pretty conclusively ruled out as a cause.
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Thanks guys. I was already thinking this would be the nudge to schedule my annual (every three years) physical. It'd be awesome if the bloodwork would be a clue - "There it is! Your htfubulin is low... " but apparently, that isn't likely. Still, this feels like a necessary step. Scheduled for two days from now.
At one of the feed/aid stops on the course Saturday, a guy (as he handed me three paper shot glasses of pickle juice) said "I swear by potassium glutamate". So, if I combine all of the anecdotal advice so far, I should start the ride with mustard, pickles, hot sauce, Skratch, electrolyte tabs... and potassium glutamate. |
Originally Posted by MoAlpha
(Post 23012307)
I also cramp way more than I did when I was young and in some surprising muscle groups. Forget the electrolytes; that's been pretty conclusively ruled out as a cause.
If it were purely electrolyte depletion, or even dehydration, the muscles that cramp wouldn't necessarily be the ones that are most tired - i.e., the legs. So simple muscle fatigue is a factor. If I'm at a high level of fitness, cramps are less likely, so training/fitness is a factor. But if I hydrate well in a ride, I will be less likely to cramp. So hydration is a factor. If I hydrate only with water and don't eat, I will be more likely to cramp than if I use electrolyte drinks and keep on top of my nutrition. So electrolytes and/or nutrients are a factor. There are times when I also get cramps during rides that aren't in my legs - i.e., my hands. Whether they are also fatigued from gripping the bars or collateral damage from dehydration/depletion is hard to say. Shorter: There's no single cause or remedy. It's a combination. That is, assuming some other medical effect is not intervening. |
Originally Posted by Zaskar
(Post 23012362)
Thanks guys. I was already thinking this would be the nudge to schedule my annual (every three years) physical. It'd be awesome if the bloodwork would be a clue - "There it is! Your htfubulin is low... " but apparently, that isn't likely. Still, this feels like a necessary step. Scheduled for two days from now.
At one of the feed/aid stops on the course Saturday, a guy (as he handed me three paper shot glasses of pickle juice) said "I swear by potassium glutamate". So, if I combine all of the anecdotal advice so far, I should start the ride with mustard, pickles, hot sauce, Skratch, electrolyte tabs... and potassium glutamate. |
Originally Posted by MoAlpha
(Post 23012389)
The pickle juice/mustard thing may be real and if it is it may operate through a brainstem reflex triggered by the sour taste, which somehow inhibits the runaway mechanism in the spinal cord. The brainstem is organized in a hyperconnected way that permits funny crosstalk like that between seemingly unrelated circuits.
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
(Post 23012368)
In my admittedly anecdotal experience, electrolytes are not the only or even the principle cause, but they are also not inconsequential.
If it were purely electrolyte depletion, or even dehydration, the muscles that cramp wouldn't necessarily be the ones that are most tired - i.e., the legs. So simple muscle fatigue is a factor. If I'm at a high level of fitness, cramps are less likely, so training/fitness is a factor. But if I hydrate well in a ride, I will be less likely to cramp. So hydration is a factor. If I hydrate only with water and don't eat, I will be more likely to cramp than if I use electrolyte drinks and keep on top of my nutrition. So electrolytes and/or nutrients are a factor. There are times when I also get cramps during rides that aren't in my legs - i.e., my hands. Whether they are also fatigued from gripping the bars or collateral damage from dehydration/depletion is hard to say. Shorter: There's no single cause or remedy. It's a combination. That is, assuming some other medical effect is not intervening. |
just read a list of causes for cramps during exercise. not covered here yet, are:
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6
(Post 23012473)
just read a list of causes for cramps during exercise. not covered here yet, are:
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Originally Posted by Zaskar
(Post 23012496)
In order of likelihood...
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Have you started taking any new medications lately? When I had cramps both on and off the bike that were severe, it was the particular prescription I'd just started.
Otherwise if you've been doing most everything else the same as always, then maybe just ask yourself if maybe you've been going too hard in hot temperatures that you aren't fully use to yet. |
Originally Posted by rumrunn6
(Post 23012473)
just read a list of causes for cramps during exercise. not covered here yet, are:
I did six months of clinical neurophysiology during my neurology residency and passed the subspecialty board exam during a subsequent research fellowship in human motor control. Being an endurance geek, I was interested in cramps, but I heard or saw the mechanism mentioned maybe three times in those four years. No one knows ****. |
It's probably too late for this year, but a study series I'd like to see is a comprehensive study of riders participating in late summer or fall century rides. Get a look at their training diaries, or just riding diaries. Record age, height, weight, bike style, heck, even tire pressure. Offer blood tests to all riders the week of the ride (night before registration, morning of the ride sign in, etc.), and follow-up checks at the after-ride meal. Muscle biopsies might be ideal, but no, I'm not interested in that. Have the grad students at each SAG stop recording rider numbers, what they eat and drink, with a field for "brought their own" pills, drink mixes, or whatever. Then do a monster statistical exercise of who cramps, when, what solved the cramping, etc. Repeat at 3-4 events across the country, so you get a cross-section of how riders respond to "hot weather of 80F" or "kinda cool, only 87F" or "over 100F in the afternoon, warm but it was a dry heat."
Why bother? Well, every "study" I've seen is flawed as far as "extreme" (usually meaning more than 10 miles) riding. Either the samples are skewed to 20 college kids, or 25 pro or semi-pro athletes, often not even cyclists. Show me an existing study, and I can usually find a good reason to put "N/A" beside it if I were writing a review. A comprehensive study of a 300-500 rider event should make it possible to weed out some of the nonsense that flies around. |
Originally Posted by pdlamb
(Post 23012667)
It's probably too late for this year, but a study series I'd like to see is a comprehensive study of riders participating in late summer or fall century rides. Get a look at their training diaries, or just riding diaries. Record age, height, weight, bike style, heck, even tire pressure. Offer blood tests to all riders the week of the ride (night before registration, morning of the ride sign in, etc.), and follow-up checks at the after-ride meal. Muscle biopsies might be ideal, but no, I'm not interested in that. Have the grad students at each SAG stop recording rider numbers, what they eat and drink, with a field for "brought their own" pills, drink mixes, or whatever. Then do a monster statistical exercise of who cramps, when, what solved the cramping, etc. Repeat at 3-4 events across the country, so you get a cross-section of how riders respond to "hot weather of 80F" or "kinda cool, only 87F" or "over 100F in the afternoon, warm but it was a dry heat."
Why bother? Well, every "study" I've seen is flawed as far as "extreme" (usually meaning more than 10 miles) riding. Either the samples are skewed to 20 college kids, or 25 pro or semi-pro athletes, often not even cyclists. Show me an existing study, and I can usually find a good reason to put "N/A" beside it if I were writing a review. A comprehensive study of a 300-500 rider event should make it possible to weed out some of the nonsense that flies around. |
Originally Posted by pdlamb
(Post 23012667)
It's probably too late for this year, but a study series I'd like to see is a comprehensive study of riders participating in late summer or fall century rides. Get a look at their training diaries, or just riding diaries. Record age, height, weight, bike style, heck, even tire pressure. Offer blood tests to all riders the week of the ride (night before registration, morning of the ride sign in, etc.), and follow-up checks at the after-ride meal. Muscle biopsies might be ideal, but no, I'm not interested in that. Have the grad students at each SAG stop recording rider numbers, what they eat and drink, with a field for "brought their own" pills, drink mixes, or whatever. Then do a monster statistical exercise of who cramps, when, what solved the cramping, etc. Repeat at 3-4 events across the country, so you get a cross-section of how riders respond to "hot weather of 80F" or "kinda cool, only 87F" or "over 100F in the afternoon, warm but it was a dry heat."
Why bother? Well, every "study" I've seen is flawed as far as "extreme" (usually meaning more than 10 miles) riding. Either the samples are skewed to 20 college kids, or 25 pro or semi-pro athletes, often not even cyclists. Show me an existing study, and I can usually find a good reason to put "N/A" beside it if I were writing a review. A comprehensive study of a 300-500 rider event should make it possible to weed out some of the nonsense that flies around. |
I understand that pickle juice can also be prophylactic. You might try that as an experiment. About 3 oz. You're a big boy, you can deal with an astringent flavor. That's not a solution, just a maybe temporary palliative.
Low blood sugar can cause cramping, but that's really unusual during a 2-3 hour ride. It should be well known that hydration and electrolytes don't have much if anything to do with cramping, but bro-science persists. You haven't done anything different with your saddle lately, have you? |
I'll occasionally get cramps 40-50 miles into a brevet, particularly if it's climby at the start. Inner thigh cramps, very painful, hard to stretch out. Then they go away, and I might ride another 100 or 200 miles with no further issues.
No bananas consumed, no pickles juiced, no pricey tablets, no massive change in hydration. Causes for cramping are not understood, making it an area rife for crackpotism and quackery. |
The only time I ever get leg cramp during a ride is with fatigue near the end of a very long, hard ride. I do quite often get cramp after a long ride when I get off the bike and sit down for a while. This often happens in the evening when I’m sat down for dinner. Fatigue is always the trigger for me. I can’t remember ever getting cramp with relatively fresh legs. So cramp 2 hours into a ride would be very unusual for me and sounds unusual for the OP given their riding history and sudden onset.
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Subscribed because I just turned 55 too and am curious about this. Sounds like nothing I've ever experienced (my cramps are usually in the Spring due to a lack of fitness) and sounds like the OP is following all of the conventional wisdom about cramping.
Would be curious what a doc visit might reveal and if a sports/fitness doc would have some insight. |
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
(Post 23012865)
It should be well known that hydration and electrolytes don't have much if anything to do with cramping, but bro-science persists.
As has been mentioned quite a few times, there's no generally accepted cause for cramping. There are an awful lot of things that work for some people, but none that works for everyone. That seems to indicate there are multiple causes for different people. If you start with that premise, it seems reasonable to answer with a checklist: try #1, if that doesn't work move on to #2, etc. Bor science? Whatever! And given the number of people who say salt/electrolytes helps control their cramping, it's reasonable to put them near the top of the checklist. |
New meds - no. (not on any meds)
Changes to fit - no. Changes to diet - no. Changes to anything... no. Do you guys remember that movie "The Highlander"? These badass warriors live hundreds of years? Well, I'm like a super lame highlander. I haven't changed in 30 years. I'm the same height, weight, waste/chest/arm/shoulder size. Other than losing all of my hair and looking exactly as old as I am - I've not changed. I still ride a road bike with a significant bar-stem drop and find it really comfortable. I was recently fitted on a new road bike - to the mm matching my last road bike... and the one before that. At my yearly (every three years) physical, my doc usually laughs and says something like "Same as ever. All good. Well, except for that bradycardia" - knowing I get the joke. Maybe my physical tomorrow comes with a big "AH HA!" discovery. I mean, I kinda hope not. I'll keep trying different bro-science remedies - pickled peppers and mustard shots may be on tap this weekend. |
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