Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Correlation between maximum leg strength and smooth pedaling

Notices
Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Correlation between maximum leg strength and smooth pedaling

Old 01-26-24, 06:15 PM
  #76  
Senior Member
 
Trakhak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,566
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2592 Post(s)
Liked 3,118 Times in 1,773 Posts
An anecdote I'm prone to dropping whenever the "but weight on the wheel!" discussions arise:

Back in my time-trialing days, I bought a pair of absurdly light and fragile Hi-E wheels, when they were probably the lightest wheels on the market. I used them for a few rides and then sold them, solely because I disliked that I could feel the lack of a flywheel effect. Riding on them felt like a series of pulsing micro-accelerations.

Writing that now, I suspect that my memory of the way the wheels rode might have become a bit overblown over the years. Still, I did sell them, and I rarely sell anything, as my cluttered basement demonstrates.

In any event, I went back to my reassuringly steady-state Campy/Mavic GP4 wheels.

Last edited by Trakhak; 01-26-24 at 06:22 PM.
Trakhak is online now  
Old 01-26-24, 08:02 PM
  #77  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,308

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10217 Post(s)
Liked 5,927 Times in 3,194 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak
An anecdote I'm prone to dropping whenever the "but weight on the wheel!" discussions arise:

Back in my time-trialing days, I bought a pair of absurdly light and fragile Hi-E wheels, when they were probably the lightest wheels on the market. I used them for a few rides and then sold them, solely because I disliked that I could feel the lack of a flywheel effect. Riding on them felt like a series of pulsing micro-accelerations.

Writing that now, I suspect that my memory of the way the wheels rode might have become a bit overblown over the years. Still, I did sell them, and I rarely sell anything, as my cluttered basement demonstrates.

In any event, I went back to my reassuringly steady-state Campy/Mavic GP4 wheels.
The GP4s were fantastic for that era and that dark gray was badass.
MoAlpha is offline  
Old 01-26-24, 08:26 PM
  #78  
just another gosling
Thread Starter
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,600

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3917 Post(s)
Liked 1,973 Times in 1,408 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
If you are talking about micro acceleration and deceleration within each pedal stroke then the physics tells us that it simply cancels out in terms of energy consumption. Heavier wheels actually damp out these slight speed fluctuations anyway. Not to mention that the accelerations are of tiny (insignificant) magnitude. Even a full bore sprint acceleration requires very little additional power to spin up heavier wheels. Its very easy to calculate. I made a quick spreadsheet last time this was argued.

This is not the same thing as a rider constantly attacking on a climb and then sitting up. Of course that is inefficient in terms of our energy systems.
How do you figure the bolded part? Like if I rapidly diddled my car's accelerator but that didn't change the car's speed, that would not affect fuel consumption? I don't think so. I think that's a valid comparison, though I expect we will disagree on that point. Can you show me the physics of that? Micro accelerations are still accelerations even if they don't affect the numbers on our devices. I know, the effect is very small, but it's there and small things add up over the hours. Randonneurs complain about beginning to "pedal squares" when very tired. It can be hard to maintain one's efficient pedal stroke. It helps a lot if one has trained those ganglia. That's never happened to me, which might help to explain the good results of a weak cyclist like me.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 01-26-24, 09:46 PM
  #79  
Perceptual Dullard
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,482
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 956 Post(s)
Liked 1,218 Times in 525 Posts
Originally Posted by MoAlpha
In a data-free environment, one hundred flowers bloom.
I try to instill in the students that we should never let the lack of information restrict the breadth of our opinions but always let it limit the strength with which we defend them.
RChung is offline  
Likes For RChung:
Old 01-27-24, 12:17 AM
  #80  
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,257

Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3554 Post(s)
Liked 3,715 Times in 1,862 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
We burn fat and carbs, cars burn gas or Diesel, it's the same thing, but we only have numbers for cars. It's just physics.
Pros actually climb very smoothly. Again, look it up. That's the reason the wheel weight didn't make a difference other than as being a part of the bike.
Yes, it is physics. More specifically, thermodynamics.

Humans and cars are both thermodynamic engines, but they are quite different.

Accelerating a car is energy inefficient because acceleration a heavy car requires substantial power, and internal combustion engines are not very efficient at higher power levels.

Human engines don't suffer quite the same inefficiency problem at higher power output, so accelerating on a bike is (more) efficient.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse



Last edited by terrymorse; 01-27-24 at 01:27 PM.
terrymorse is offline  
Old 01-27-24, 03:51 AM
  #81  
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,780
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4574 Post(s)
Liked 5,113 Times in 3,157 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
How do you figure the bolded part? Like if I rapidly diddled my car's accelerator but that didn't change the car's speed, that would not affect fuel consumption? I don't think so. I think that's a valid comparison, though I expect we will disagree on that point. Can you show me the physics of that? Micro accelerations are still accelerations even if they don't affect the numbers on our devices. I know, the effect is very small, but it's there and small things add up over the hours. Randonneurs complain about beginning to "pedal squares" when very tired. It can be hard to maintain one's efficient pedal stroke. It helps a lot if one has trained those ganglia. That's never happened to me, which might help to explain
the good results of a weak cyclist like me.
You are right, I dont think it is a valid analogy. If the car speed isnt changing, then oscillating the throttle is likely just dumping more unburnt fuel. It has nothing to do with conservation of KE when pedalling a bicycle.

Pedalling squares vs pedalling circles can mean whatever you want it to mean, but again has no relevance to the physics here.
PeteHski is offline  
Old 01-27-24, 07:30 AM
  #82  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,308

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10217 Post(s)
Liked 5,927 Times in 3,194 Posts
Originally Posted by RChung
I try to instill in the students that we should never let the lack of information restrict the breadth of our opinions but always let it limit the strength with which we defend them.
That’s a good formulation. The problem for the general public and a distressingly large number of professionals is the inability to distinguish between reliable data, unreliable data, and sheer opinion. Sounds like your students have mastered that part.
MoAlpha is offline  
Likes For MoAlpha:
Old 01-27-24, 10:45 AM
  #83  
Perceptual Dullard
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,482
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 956 Post(s)
Liked 1,218 Times in 525 Posts
Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Thats a good formulation. The problem for the general public and a distressingly large number of professionals is the inability to distinguish between reliable data, unreliable data, and sheer opinion. Sounds like your students have mastered that part.
I work in a field where we don't usually get to do experiments. We work with crappy observational data so have evolved a lot of methods and techniques to assess and work with crap data. That's why the statistical techniques used in non-experimental fields are so much more sophisticated than the stat used in experimental fields. In physics or chem or engineering, when they get crappy data they just re-run the experiment. We don't have that luxury. (As an aside, my approach to measuring bike drag uses data that everyone else thought were too crappy to use. I just used the methods we use for crap data and because the data from speedometers and power meters and barometers is so much cleaner than the stuff I'm used to working with, the results turned out pretty well).

Another thing I tell the students is that there are those whose confidence in their opinions varies not with how much they know, but with how much they think you know. Basically, I tell them not be mansplainers.
RChung is offline  
Likes For RChung:
Old 01-27-24, 11:46 AM
  #84  
just another gosling
Thread Starter
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,600

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3917 Post(s)
Liked 1,973 Times in 1,408 Posts
Originally Posted by RChung
I've often thought that high force zero speed training (e.g., 1RM strength training) has about as much theoretical basis for improving submaximal power as high cadence zero force training, but lots more people recommend the former than the latter.
I don't know if that's true or not. I've never seen a rec for 1RM training per se. Many people check their 1RM and use a percentage. I don't even do that. I just go to exhaustion and choose my next week's weight on that basis. Why would I need to know my 1RM? Silly, IMO. Risk of injury. OTOH, I don't know anyone who does what I do. Maybe they're out there? Hard to know. So far, everyone I know who's tried it said "I can't do that." My oddity is that no, I couldn't do it either, but I kept trying. I remember when I started serious rock climbing. I spent a month just getting off the ground on a new pitch. Nothing wrong with that, other than perhaps being a little obsessive. OTOH, my FastPedal routine was recommended to me by Ed Burke. I suspect he's out of fashion now. My one-legged pedaling routines were sent to me by Pete Penseyres many years ago. I knew he had done that and asked for his recommendation.
__________________
Results matter

Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 01-27-24 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Realized I'd left out Pete's contribution.
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 01-27-24, 01:19 PM
  #85  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,308

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10217 Post(s)
Liked 5,927 Times in 3,194 Posts
Originally Posted by RChung
I work in a field where we don't usually get to do experiments. We work with crappy observational data so have evolved a lot of methods and techniques to assess and work with crap data. That's why the statistical techniques used in non-experimental fields are so much more sophisticated than the stat used in experimental fields. In physics or chem or engineering, when they get crappy data they just re-run the experiment. We don't have that luxury. (As an aside, my approach to measuring bike drag uses data that everyone else thought were too crappy to use. I just used the methods we use for crap data and because the data from speedometers and power meters and barometers is so much cleaner than the stuff I'm used to working with, the results turned out pretty well).

Another thing I tell the students is that there are those whose confidence in their opinions varies not with how much they know, but with how much they think you know. Basically, I tell them not be mansplainers.
Economics? Grad students or undergrads?

Yes, the worse the data, the better the stats.

In the better neighborhoods of the clinical and human subjects world, we dont let people rerun experiments unless they put that in the protocol and its approved before they start and then we may make them halve their alpha. Animal research is still the Wild West.

The Dunning-Kruger effect is always with us.

Last edited by MoAlpha; 01-27-24 at 01:31 PM.
MoAlpha is offline  
Old 01-27-24, 02:07 PM
  #86  
just another gosling
Thread Starter
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,600

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3917 Post(s)
Liked 1,973 Times in 1,408 Posts
Originally Posted by MoAlpha
In a data-free environment, one hundred flowers bloom.
No, I don't have any data because no power pedals. I'm not going to spend $1000 on something that won't improve my cycling just to post stuff. My only data are my finish times and placings, which in my view are what matters. Everything else is evidently arguable.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 01-27-24, 02:20 PM
  #87  
Perceptual Dullard
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,482
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 956 Post(s)
Liked 1,218 Times in 525 Posts
Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Economics? Grad students or undergrads?
Thank goodness, no. (Although I studied Econ and have a grad degree in it). I just retired ("just" as in, Dec. 31) from one of the few PhD-granting Demography departments in the world.

Yes, the worse the data, the better the stats.

In the better neighborhoods of the clinical and human subjects world, we dont let people rerun experiments unless they put that in the protocol and its approved before they start and then we may make them halve their alpha. Animal research is still the Wild West.
Yeah, I split my time between UC Berkeley and UCSF, but I've never done RCTs. I worked with observational data, mostly administrative but some clinical, typically with tens of thousands or tens of millions of cases, to assess quality of care. Demographers know a lot about large datasets, how to look for data anomalies, and how to standardize to level the playing field. I've been yelled at by some pretty (in)famous physicians.
RChung is offline  
Likes For RChung:
Old 01-27-24, 02:32 PM
  #88  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,308

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10217 Post(s)
Liked 5,927 Times in 3,194 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
No, I don't have any data because no power pedals. I'm not going to spend $1000 on something that won't improve my cycling just to post stuff. My only data are my finish times and placings, which in my view are what matters. Everything else is evidently arguable.
Your observations are fine data as far as Im concerned. I was referring to data from well designed experiments we could use to answer the question of what is likely to help most people.
MoAlpha is offline  
Likes For MoAlpha:
Old 01-27-24, 02:44 PM
  #89  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,308

Bikes: Shmikes

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10217 Post(s)
Liked 5,927 Times in 3,194 Posts
Originally Posted by RChung
Thank goodness, no. (Although I studied Econ and have a grad degree in it). I just retired ("just" as in, Dec. 31) from one of the few PhD-granting Demography departments in the world.


Yeah, I split my time between UC Berkeley and UCSF, but I've never done RCTs. I worked with observational data, mostly administrative but some clinical, typically with tens of thousands or tens of millions of cases, to assess quality of care. Demographers know a lot about large datasets, how to look for data anomalies, and how to standardize to level the playing field. I've been yelled at by some pretty (in)famous physicians.
Sounds interesting and valuable! I need to retire too.

Have you been yelled at by Ioannidis? I feel as though he has been yelling at me for the last 20 years even though Ive never met him!

I am actually a cognitive neuroscience guy with a background in neurophysiology, but I have been involved in many trials over the years and I chair the scientific review committee at my NIH institute, where we clean up human subjects protocols before they go the IRB. I have gotten pretty savvy and hardass about design and analysis, at least for a doc.
MoAlpha is offline  
Old 01-27-24, 03:21 PM
  #90  
Perceptual Dullard
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,482
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 956 Post(s)
Liked 1,218 Times in 525 Posts
Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Have you been yelled at by Ioannidis? I feel as though he has been yelling at me for the last 20 years even though Ive never met him!
Nope, but I won't say who I've been yelled at, other than to say that my work has shown that *when adjusted for patient status at time of delivery of service*, the quality of care at some big Academic University Medical Centers is smack dab in the middle of the distribution, i.e., I was being yelled at by big important guys who think they're hot stuff and I was showing that *when adjusted for patient status* they were getting outcomes that were expected. I never got yelled at (to my face) by guys who were at the bottom of the distribution, I was getting yelled at by guys who thought they were god's gift and I wasn't showing that.

I am actually a cognitive neuroscience guy with a background in neurophysiology, but I have been involved in many trials over the years and I chair the scientific review committee at my NIH institute, where we clean up human subjects protocols before they go the IRB. I have gotten pretty savvy and hardass about design and analysis, at least for a doc.
That's a tough job.
RChung is offline  
Likes For RChung:
Old 01-27-24, 08:47 PM
  #91  
just another gosling
Thread Starter
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,600

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3917 Post(s)
Liked 1,973 Times in 1,408 Posts
At least there's another person somewhere . . .
https://ispyphysiology.com/2023/07/1...nstead-of-two/

I finally had a successful FastPedal this evening. I haven't been warming up enough. Gotta do more to open up those arteries before I do anything interesting, lots more than only two years ago. Must be age. It's "interesting" that there's so little knowledge about coping as an aging athlete. Anyone? My current plan is to do a lot of FastPedal until I can spin the pedals fast with a lot less HR, Z2 training with an easily seen marker. I've been good about going to the gym, so decent muscle but not anything like enough cardio. I'll go back to doing the LSCT warmup: https://www.highnorth.co.uk/articles...l-cycling-test
I didn't think I needed that for doing a FastPedal, but I think now I have to.

Also found another crazy person: https://ispyphysiology.com/2023/07/1...nstead-of-two/
__________________
Results matter

Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 01-27-24 at 09:08 PM.
Carbonfiberboy is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.