Real world experiences, while valuable personally, rarely satisfy the criteria for making scientific conclusions.

Also, on the subject of cherry picking data: I've still not found one study that supports the claim that strength training is an effective way to improve VO2max. Zero, zilch.

That's not cherry picking. That's searching and finding nothing. On the other hand, several studies have found the opposite.

Yes, agreed. Just strength training does not improve VO2max as far as I can tell. Super-hard aerobic work is what it takes. What one does depends on what element of performance one is trying to improve. The whole idea of VO2max is about moving more oxygen through one's body. Moving more oxygen is obviously the way to train that, just like riding more distance increases the distance one can ride. That said, it very well could be that strength training plus VO2max work might give better results than only doing VO2max work. Just seems like having somewhere to burn more oxygen might just improve the results of a VO2max workout. OTOH, does strength work do that? I don't know.

For sure, doing strength work and riding like a madman as much as possible can eventually put one at the head of the line on a climb, even a talentless fool like me. I had better results from competition than from any training regimen I tried. I used to tell our newbies that the way to get so one could hold a wheel was to "ride 'til the blood spurts from your eye sockets." Just have a cue sheet to finish the ride . . .and keep coming back. Ya gotta want it.

There's a lot to improving one's high end performance.
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/how...-behind-it-all

Not mentioned in this link is that getting one's blood oxygenation down will cause the release of EPO. That's what riding beyond one's current ability can do - if one is strong enough to burn enough oxygen to do that. That's the trick. Doing hard aerobic exercise at like 10,000' will have an effect. Closer to sea level, the intensity has to be very, very high. I've ridden with an oxymeter taped to my finger. One has to get it down to 93 AFAIK. That takes a very high muscular effort and a well-trained heart. My wife who got woozy at 5000' carried a 10-day pack over an 11,000 foot pass in the Sierra in her late 60s, no problem. Takes some conditioning.

This whole VO2max business if very complicated. There's so much going on.

The couple of studies I saw concluded that doing concurrent strength training and aerobic training doesn't reduce VO2max, but it doesn't increase it, either.

For sure, doing strength work and riding like a madman as much as possible can eventually put one at the head of the line on a climb, even a talentless fool like me. I had better results from competition than from any training regimen I tried. I used to tell our newbies that the way to get so one could hold a wheel was to "ride 'til the blood spurts from your eye sockets." Just have a cue sheet to finish the ride . . .and keep coming back. Ya gotta want it.

There's a lot to improving one's high end performance.
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/how...-behind-it-all

Hmm. I suspect that short, high intensity efforts may not be long enough to get that EPO response. If you look at the altitude training studies, they recommend a minimum of 12-16 hours at altitude per day.

Speaking of blood oxygen levels, I recently spent a week above 8000'. My blood oxygen measurements show pretty clearly when that was:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9bfc8204f.jpeg
I'm heading up for another week soon. Adaptations at altitude are weird.

You're missing something or looking the wrong way....Traditional style of strength training or weight training isn't going to do much to increase your V02max....In order to increase VO2max and aerobic capacity with weights the workouts need to be structured differently from traditional style strength training workouts.. Kettlebell training is especially effective for increasing aerobic capacity and VO2max. Barbell complexes will work too if done correctly....You made it clear in your first post that you hate weight training so there is no point of trying to convince you otherwise. You will not convince me and I will not convince you, I am done arguing about this topic.

Can you point to any studies that support that claim? I'd like to read them.

Before you bail on this discussion, can you point to any data that shows kettlebell training improves VO2max? I haven't seen anything remotely like that.

Do I hate weight training? "Hate" is too strong a word. I do it, because I know it's good for me. But I don't like that it takes me away from the bike, and it makes riding at power afterwards difficult.

If I can get similar training effect on the bike, I'll do that instead. FWIW, my sore quads and glutes after a sprint day sure feels like the soreness I get from weight training.

Finally, in answer to the "but you cherry picked just one study with a few participants" critique in one post above, there's this review paper quote:

"Current research on HIIT confirms its efficacy in improving individual strength and promoting muscle hypertrophy (muscle growth) in athletes. HIIT activates fast-twitch muscle fibers, which are responsible for generating high levels of strength and power. This activation promotes muscle adaptation and an increase in strength. Additionally, HIIT stimulates the production of anabolic hormones like testosterone and growth hormone, which are instrumental in muscle protein synthesis and, consequently, in muscle growth and hypertrophy. HIIT also induces metabolic stress and causes micro-tears in muscle fibers, triggering physiological responses that promote anabolic signaling and growth factors, leading to increased muscle strength and hypertrophy...

(S)tudies across various sports have shown associations with HIIT in metrics like VO2 max, shuttle performance, strength, repetitive sprinting, and jumping"

— Liu et al, Effects of high-intensity interval training on strength, speed, and endurance performance among racket sports players: A systematic review, PLoS One 2024

You been doing some good riding up there. Good on 'ya.

Sure, "aerobic training" per se won't increase VO2Max whether combined with strength training or not. As you know, VO2max work involves very specific interval training. Just aerobic training doesn't do it.

The Norwegian trainers whom I've read say that reducing blood oxygen levels below 93% will stimulate EPO release in the kidneys. No particular duration necessary. Simple breath hold work does it.
https://oxygenadvantage.com/science/...ropoietin-epo/
Your blood oxygen monitoring shows that you spent some time below 93%. Just being at high altitude probably does some good, but hard to say how much. Everest climbers leave their 17,000' base camp and climb up to 22,000', then return to base a few times to "acclimate." My guess is that they get that blood oxygen down and thus get some serious EPO release. Then they have to hang out at base camp long enough for the new red blood cells to mature, which takes about 7 days.

A Swedish cyclist rode his bike all the way from Sweden to Katmandu, pulling a trailer with all the gear he needed. Then he soloed Everest, no oxygen, no problem, plenty of red blood cells. Oh yeah!

The issue with spending time exercising at altitude is that while you increase your red blood cells, you're still limited in the muscular efforts you can produce because your blood oxygen is still not as good as it is at sea level. Hence "sleep high, train low." I forget how long that high hematocrit lasts once one returns to sea level.

To add another complexity for us "no longer teenagers" that were born when Eisenhower was President, is bone density. A fall resulting in broken bones requiring bed rest has a huge effect on mortality. (In one study of a length and size that I don't know, it took 6 months on a training program to recover from a 1 week period of bedrest).

My understanding (from studes, Drs. Attia & Huberman) is that bone density is increased by the tendons pulling on the bones, which is enhanced by weight training. I don't know if this is replicated in sprint training, and I would suppose if it is, largely only in the legs.

I don't much like weight training, but I think it is necessary. I do notice when doing deadlifts my heart rate rising to within 10 BPM of my max heart rate when racing or training on the track.

Nice article, thanks for that.

I think the difficulty with short-duration EPO boosting is the time lag between EPO increase and red blood cell production. According to ChatGTP, here's the timeline:

Days after acute EPO boost:

• 1-2 : bone marrow begins to produce red blood cells
• 3-5 : immature red blood cells start entering bloodstream
• 5-7 : mature red blood cell count begins to rise

That timeline suggests (I think) that you need to maintain that higher EPO level for about a week, or the red blood cell production may shut down prematurely. If you're doing breath holding, you're getting a 3-4 hour boost, so I guess you need to do it a few times per day.

Well, there's this: https://oxygenadvantage.com/science/...ropoietin-epo/

The Norwegian sources I read said below 93% was the goal. This is all I know about it, except that for sure getting the oxygen level down there does work. Did that for 3 days, got results. Gotta time it right with whatever one is trying to do. The body will scavenge unnecessary RBCs, so once you have them, get high or race or whatever.

One study is nowhere near enough evidence to go against the consensus, no matter how much you want it to be true. Literally zero strength athletes uses cycling sprints as a way to build muscle. Why? Because no reasonable person believes it to be as good. Similarly, a large number of cyclists strength train for performance benefits, not just because of studies but also because enough of them have, anecdotally, found it works. A list of studies indicating this can be found in the description of this youtube video.
One study is, however, enough to start asking questions. But, again, reasonable people are far more likely to see issues like a 5 week duration, or a 10% VO2 max change as indicators that something is probably flawed with the study rather than some revolutionary new exercise technique being discovered.

Sprints on a bike (and while running) are something we all should be doing. But they aren't a substitute for strength training.

I think saying "sprints are not a substitute for strength training" is too definitive. I'd go with, "strength training has been the traditionally accepted method to improve strength".

What is the consensus that this "weights vs. sprints" study challenges, though? I would say it's this:

"Strength training improves strength, but sprint training doesn't."

My personal experience says that's not true, as sprint training has definitely improved my leg strength and increased my muscle mass. I don't even think this is a revolutionary idea, but it certainly counters the "must lift heavy weights" dogma.

Also, I think a 10% improvement in VO2max is not unheard of in early training, or when a coming out of a "zone 2" base period.

Everything works... for a little while.

This is what people here are, rightfully, taking issue with.

For myself I divide strength training into 3 separate categories, neither being more important than the other. Endurance: light weights; high reps / Strength: Heavy weights; low (and slow) reps / Power: light/medium (start light) weights; with quick (powerful) movements, with more of a break in between reps.

Sprinting is a Power event and it applies a lot of stress to connective tissue. The best way to prepare for this is, IMO, Strength training, to include not only slow reps, but also some isometrics. Strength training to me goes way beyond just muscular strength; I believe we should place more emphasis on building up connective tissue and bone, because muscle is easy to build, but these other parts of the musculoskeletal system takes more time and more conscious effort. I think this is why so many people end up with injured joints, i.e. connective tissue, because they applied too much force into a given weight/resistance, which their muscles could handle, but there's much more in the body's chain. You know what they say about the weakest link...





This is an example of some serious tendon stiffness/conditioning. It takes more than muscle to do this, if you do this without proper conditioning of connective tissue you'll be on of the statistics that injure yourself. I'm speaking from experience :o
Olympic sprinters can exert a phenomenal amount of peak force of over 1,000 pounds. Do that and you better have more than simple muscle strength.

I was at the track yesterday and did a couple of standing starts at the end of the workout. Team sprint is one of my favorite events. Next week I am at the indoor velodrome.

I love this video for inspiration and to get pumped up. Back squats are my fav leg workout.

If you ain't doing sprints on these machines, you ain't doing sprints:p

These guy don't build up their legs to ride these machines by simply sprinting. They spent a lot of time pumping iron.

Those track sprint guys are doing something very specialized that requires massive leg strength. I don't think that type of training would be applicable to the road.

:)

Thanks for this info. After an accident destroyed my legs and left with flimsy bones held together with plates and screws I am no longer allowed to lift leg weights. So I was wondering what to do for an alternative. There's a long 8% hill into my neighborhood that would be the perfect place for hard sprints (is there such a thing as easy sprints at 8%?). Plus, I take a perverse pride in showing my neighbors that the former wheelchair guy is kicking their asses on a bike 6 years and counting into recovery :)

Good on ya for getting at it.

Writing as someone who still has hardware in one leg from a break, my rule of thumb during recovery was to let pain be my guide. If it didn't hurt, I did it. Of course, it's best to follow your doctor's advice (which I never did).

It's not one or the other it's both strength and intervals. That is the consistent message from dozens of cycling coaches. In fact I've never heard a reputable cycling training coach recommend just training on the bike only.
I'm a 74 year old male and two years ago added strength training. Twice a week along with riding 3x a week on average. My cycling VO2 max score is now 48, up from 42. That places me in the top 1% of V02 max scores for my age/gender. Combining the two has been great. I vary the strength training. I do leg presses, squats, farmers carry, dead man lifts, Bulgarian squats, hamstring curls and several others. Variety is key same as on the bike. On the bike I'll do sprints, ride out of the saddle for 15-20 minutes, low cadence drills, and zone 2 although I prefer doing zone 2 on my indoor bike since I can control my heart rate better when the ride is fairly flat which I cannot get since I live in a hilly area. I love going hard on the bike but I've done that for years. What I found is once I started strength training I could endure harder rides on my bike. My quads are now noticeably larger and the muscle is much harder. Going up big hills is now a lot easier. And best of all my riding friends are now asking how I improved so much. That is not supposed to happen at my age.