Taxman

As stated, I need to really work on my aerobic fitness. My legs are in pretty good shape and recover pretty quick while riding after a hard run, sprint or climb. My problem is lungs. They just cant keep up with my output. I can ride at a decent speed for long distance ie Hotter'n Hell 100 miles in 4:45 and near 22 mph avg. Pretty good for me with 1 year of riding and 37 years old. My problem is in something like a hard climb or sprint. I get winded very easily and have what feels like an asthma attack and have to suck hard just to get the air into my lungs. I had never had this problem in the past. That is at it's worst. Most of the time I just get very winded and it takes a while to recover from it and get the heartrate back down and the O2 to catch up enough to get back to riding in my zone. So while I am still recovering my buddies have already come down and started off again. I'm ok at road races, but Crits kill me because of the sprints or hard accelerations out of the corners several times a lap. I just dont have the lungs for it.

What is a good training regiment I can use this winter to help me out.
Thanks in advance.

Totoro

Sounds like it could be a medical condition. I would see a doctor.

Taxman

Not too easy to do that. I'm self employed and no insurance on myself. And it's kinda funny that you mentioned that. My buddy is 48 and is stronger than I am as far as riding. He went to the doctor who said there was no need to test him or check him out for anything. He was told that he's old and get used to it. He gets winded quickly too, but not as quick or badly as I do.

So I would go and have myself checked out, but it's not plausable right now financially. I am in realitivly good shape. 6' 180lbs and not much body fat except for the small gut. I have always been active and work has always been pretty physical. (At least as much as my back will allow, I broke a vertibrae when I was 19). Such as going up and down a 5 story building carrying materials about 20+ times a day that doesnt have an elevator yet. New building work. We have group rides that are always pretty competetive 3 times a week. Saturday we rode the 1st 12 miles at a 26.5 mph avg with some small hills. I did get tired but was never overworked to the point of popping off. But if I had to push real hard up a climb, it would have been it for me and I would finish the rest of the ride at a 20-21 avg and would never catch back on. We usually slow down to the 19-21 avg at the 10-15 mile point anyway.

So I am hopeing that training can get my aerobic level up so long as there is nothing physically wrong with me.

DannoXYZ 

What do your lungs and leg-muscles feel like after the hard-climb where you blow up? What kind of gearing and RPMs are you pushing on these climbs?

NoRacer

IMHO, sounds like you have good anaerobic development, but as you've surmised, your aerobic development is far behind.

The best thing you can do is stay aerobic on your rides to develop the attributes that contribute to good aerobic development (i.e., increased mitochondrial density, as well as mitochondria size, an increase in aerobic enzymes, increased capillary density).

Taxman

Climbs, gearing and speed vary a lot. Some are extreme at about 18+ % grade and up to 1/4 mile long. I can make that % climb for about 100 yards and I'm done unless I zigzag. On one of these hills My lungs are on fire and I'm weazing about a couple hundred feet into the climb. I am in bottom gear and it takes all I have to keep the pedals turning and not fall over. About 6mph or less. Yes the legs are burning but it's my breathing that makes me stop and not make the top. I just cant breath. Most of the others are standard grades and as long as I dont push hard, I can top them at 15-18mph but it takes a bit to recover. Legs feel pretty good but tired and I'll be breathing pretty hard but not max'd out. Maybe 90%. But most of the guys I ride with will hold the speed or accelerate up the hill's. This is where they attack. If I try to keep up, I'll reach the top but will most likely pop before I get there depending on length and have nothing left for the downhill. Takes me about 3-5 minutes (I'm guessing) for the lungs to recover. Legs are ready much quicker. I run a 11-23 cassette and have just installed a 50/34 FSA compact to help in the hills, which it did a lot.


Ok. What the heck did you say and how do I do this? J/K But I do need to know how to do this.

I do not nor never have smoked, I dont drink and use no drugs. Never have and never will. So I am thinking that my lungs and heart should be ok, barring my age and maybe a medical condition I do not know about. So this makes me think I can and will increase my aerobic conditioning with the proper training. So I am hoping to find one that works for me.

NoRacer

What works for most people is staying aerobic. If you start to feel tightness develop in your legs, then you've gone too hard. Keep the tightness feeling minimized and ride long and/or often at this intensity.

Another way of measuring this level of intensity is that you should be able to converse with someone in full sentences. This may sound too easy, but it's the only way to provide the stimulus for good aerobic development.

Probably around 80 percent of your bike time should be spent in this 'zone' as it is the hardest to develop and takes the longest to develop compared to the anaerobic energy systems.

Taxman

Ok. Thats easier than it sounds. At least when I ride with my team or group. But I do spend time on the bike in that zone but not much. I will have to spend time on my trainer on the off nights. I guess that riding in this zone is really close to a revocery ride or a near rest day. Yes or no? Because I have tried to not overtrain and injure myself.

DannoXYZ 

You're caught in no-mans-land of training. You've been going too hard and not hard enough at the same time. Basically you need to back off and incorporate these three types of rides into your workouts.

1. True endurance: will work on increasing energy suppy to the muscles and improve ATP-production efficiency. Do one ride a week of 3-4 hours 75-100miles @ no more than 75-80% of your max-HR.

2. Intervals: raises your LT, the maximum steady-state effort you can output. This will make those hard efforts up the hills a sustainable rate rather than blowing you up. The problem is you've been doing those long rides at so close to your LT and anything more throws you over the edge into anaerobic fermentation. What you have to do is raise your maximum-strength and maximum power-output so that the same effort effort up those hills are only at 50% of your max instead of 80% like it is now. A guy that can bench-press 250-300lbs isn't going to have too much of a problem in a bar-brawl, but if all you can do is 150, no amount of bench-pressing 150 will allow you to do 250; you're gonna get creamed!

So add one day of flat intervals to your workouts and one day of hill intervals. Intervals by definition MUST have you hit 100% of your HR by the end, you cannot go any further and have collapsed into a heap. That's the level of intensity you have to do and you haven't been pushing yourself hard enough. These are shorter 25-35 miles rides. Intervals are like longer sprints. Goal is to do a workout at above your LT and steadily increase your HR until it's maxed out. So intervals are 1-minute to 5-minute efforts. You can do 98% effort for 1-minute until your HR maxes out. Or do 96% effort for 2-minutes, 94% for 3-minute, etc. Recover to 50-60% MHR after the interval and do another one. You can start out with a medium set of 2-2-2 minute intervals. Expand to 1-2-3-2-1 minute pyramid set. Then within a month, do a 1-2-3-5-3-2-1 pyramid. Remember the goal is steady pacing to learn about your body's capabilities and to max out the HR by the end of the interval.

Do another day of hill intervals. Gradual grades of 7-10% of 1/2 to 1-mile in distance. Pace yourself so that you can climb them at a steady pace above your LT so that your HR steadily increases to max by the time you hit the top. Part of the idea is learning your body and knowing what pace you can hold for how long. If you got a short 1/2-mile, push at 95% of maximum-effort so that you can do it in at the same speed all the way to the top. The goal is you must be completely spent by the top. If you blow up early, go a little slower the next time. If you have to sprint the last 20% in order to hit 100% max-HR, then go a little faster the next time.

This pacing practice also helps you with those group rides, you'll know how to get up the hill the fastest and not get dropped, and then recover in the draft on the downhill on the other side. The fastest way up a hill is at the fastest average speed. Faster to go 15mph all the way than 13-15-16-15-14-16-etc. And this fastest speed is dictated by your lungs and max-HR. Do 5-8 of a variety of hills. then go home

3. SPRINTS: 15-miles maximum, go out 5-8miles for warm up, then do about 5 all-out 100% effort sprints. Pick an easy gear to start at say... 52x18t 90rpm, rev it up to 120rpm and shift up, rev it up to 120rpm, shift up, hold the 100% effort for as long as you can @ 90-100rpm; about 30-45 sec, it should burn like crazy. Go until your muscles burn so much you can no longer continue and have to stop pedaling. Then relax, coast a while, let your HR recover to 50-60% of MHR and repeat. Then go home. Good to do sprints with others as they'll push you that last 3-5 seconds extra and drafting them then pulling out to pass at a higher-speed will make you exert yourself more.

That's really it, I promise you after two months of incorporating these three rides into your workouts, you'll have no problems at all with the rides that's giving you trouble. The misconception in your crits that the limiting step is aerobic is due to your maximum-strength and LT. Crits and sprints are always above your LT where your muscles use phosphocreatine and anaerobic fermentation for ATP production. This is inefficent and requires larger numbers of oxygen-molecules per ATP afterwards than aerobic respiration. That's why you're getting out of breath after a hard-effort. However, by increasing your muscle-strength and raising your LT through sprints & intervals, the previous crits, sprints and hills that's previously given you trouble will require a lower effort relative to your max than before and you'll be more in the aerobic rather than anaerobic region of exertion.

Check out links & references in this thread: Low intensity versus high intensity

Taxman

Thanks a lot danno. I'm going to work on this stuff over the winter. Well actually starting this week. No better time than the present.