Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Heart or muscle?

Old 11-21-05, 10:47 PM
  #1  
Polonswim
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Polonswim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: North Orange County, CA
Posts: 290

Bikes: Gary Fisher MTB and a Klein Quantum II

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Heart or muscle?

What causes most people to be unable to climb effectively, lack of cardio-vascular conditioning or lack of muscle strength? I know I can improve both, but I would like to know which to focus on. In other words: why can't I complete a fairly decent climb without having to stop? Which is giving out first, the muscles or the heart thing?
Polonswim is offline  
Old 11-21-05, 11:03 PM
  #2  
Cipollini
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
sometimes it depends on how long you have trained. lack of cardiovascular or muscle strength is normal for beginner. Im just into road cycling for 5 months and im very light on weight. (181cm, 112lbs) that doesnt make me a better climber also. For me, i focus on heart more than muscle. just my opinion anyway..
Cipollini is offline  
Old 11-22-05, 12:06 AM
  #3  
Machka 
In Real Life
 
Machka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Down under down under
Posts: 51,447

Bikes: Lots

Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2870 Post(s)
Liked 70 Times in 49 Posts
You forgot the lungs! I was dying on climbs - literally hyperventilating, getting dizzy, etc. My legs would burn like someone had lit them on fire.

Then after a whole bunch of testing, a specialist put me on a new inhaler ... what a difference!!
Machka is offline  
Old 11-22-05, 01:33 AM
  #4  
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 11,739
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It's different for everyone. In my case, the limitation is cardiovascular. The size of the lungs and max O2-volume it can process is based upon height and I'm 50-lbs heavier for my O2-volume than the climbers of the same lung-capacity. My legs never hurt on the climbs, I can pick it up 20-50% faster at any time I want, but my HR and lungs will max-out instantly if I do...
DannoXYZ is offline  
Old 11-22-05, 09:42 AM
  #5  
velocity
Dart Board
 
velocity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Happy Valley Oregon
Posts: 1,778

Bikes: 13 Cannondale EVO Red, 2005 Cannondale Six13, 2013 SST FUJI

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It is a balance no doubt. To train one exclusively will be your undoing in the other. Look at it like this in the form of racing. Usually in the Tour there are "specialists" that perform certain functions for the team. You have sprinters who get drop/dropout in the mountains but usually drop the hill climbers on a surge. So what to do? You may look to train 3 different types of fuel systems for the two different types of skeletal muscle fibre. Training the phosphogen fuel system part of the time will give you explosive power for mere seconds while training particularly in the lactic system will give you strength for minutes then train in your aerobic system will give you that endurance for the long hall. Training in all three will balance you but you will have to see a coach for that and explain what you really want out of yourself and then he can prescribe a routine that will give you the best chance at being as good as you can get. Koffee any takes on this?
Velocity
velocity is offline  
Old 11-22-05, 09:50 AM
  #6  
timmhaan
more ape than man
 
timmhaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: nyc
Posts: 8,094
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
well, the beauty of it is that becoming a better climber is very simple. you just gotta climb, climb, climb. your body will adapt to what you force it to do. at the beginning you may be lopsided with one being weaker\stronger than the other. but just do it often enough and your body will compensate.
timmhaan is offline  
Old 11-22-05, 09:51 AM
  #7  
NoRacer
Isaias
 
NoRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 5,182

Bikes: Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I don't believe the lungs are a bottleneck, but the other cardiovascular adaptations that occur from long term training, such as:

                    The above list has much more affect on climbing/sprinting/endurance than normal human lung capacity.
                    NoRacer is offline  
                    Old 11-22-05, 09:52 AM
                      #8  
                    jscott
                    Member
                     
                    Join Date: Nov 2005
                    Posts: 34
                    Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 0 Post(s)
                    Likes: 0
                    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
                    I go power pretty quickly but still no good in climbing. But I am ssslowly getting better as I loose weight.

                    Climbing is all power to weight ratio
                    jscott is offline  
                    Old 11-22-05, 09:59 AM
                      #9  
                    cod3man
                    -default-
                     
                    Join Date: Sep 2005
                    Location: Canada
                    Posts: 103

                    Bikes: 3 of them

                    Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 0 Post(s)
                    Likes: 0
                    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
                    I would also say it is a balance, I mean what is one without the other? I think ultimately you will answer this question yourself. When you are truck'n up the hill and your keeping a good cadence do you all the sudden just start to weep? Do your legs go Jello? and tingle when you stop? Does it take 5 min to catch you breath after? My only advice would be to weak point train your climbing. Train your climbing first. And without knowing you- lose all the weight you can.
                    cod3man is offline  
                    Old 11-22-05, 10:50 AM
                      #10  
                    plodderslusk
                    Senior Member
                     
                    Join Date: Nov 2004
                    Location: Norway
                    Posts: 1,396
                    Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 8 Post(s)
                    Likes: 0
                    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
                    Why make it more difficult than it is. If you want to be good at something, do a lot of it ! Long slow climbs and faster shorter interval climbs in a reasonable combination ( and some few long fast climbs) will pay off for everybody.
                    plodderslusk is offline  
                    Old 11-22-05, 03:39 PM
                      #11  
                    Machka 
                    In Real Life
                     
                    Machka's Avatar
                     
                    Join Date: Jan 2003
                    Location: Down under down under
                    Posts: 51,447

                    Bikes: Lots

                    Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 2870 Post(s)
                    Liked 70 Times in 49 Posts
                    Originally Posted by NoRacer
                    I don't believe the lungs are a bottleneck

                    They can be when you've got asthma.
                    Machka is offline  
                    Old 11-23-05, 12:53 AM
                      #12  
                    Polonswim
                    Senior Member
                    Thread Starter
                     
                    Polonswim's Avatar
                     
                    Join Date: Jun 2005
                    Location: North Orange County, CA
                    Posts: 290

                    Bikes: Gary Fisher MTB and a Klein Quantum II

                    Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 0 Post(s)
                    Likes: 0
                    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
                    Ok, to summarize: If you want to climb better, climb more often. Got it. Thanks.

                    I love this site. Unselfish sharing of ideas and tips by people who love cycling. Great place.
                    Polonswim is offline  
                    Old 11-23-05, 07:54 AM
                      #13  
                    NoRacer
                    Isaias
                     
                    NoRacer's Avatar
                     
                    Join Date: Sep 2005
                    Location: Essex, MD
                    Posts: 5,182

                    Bikes: Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)

                    Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 7 Post(s)
                    Likes: 0
                    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
                    Originally Posted by Machka
                    They can be when you've got asthma.
                    Agreed, but I closed with:

                    "The above list has much more affect on climbing/sprinting/endurance than normal human lung capacity."

                    I think this leaves asthmatics out.
                    NoRacer is offline  
                    Old 11-23-05, 08:17 AM
                      #14  
                    Joe Schmoe
                    Junior Member
                     
                    Join Date: Oct 2005
                    Posts: 11
                    Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 0 Post(s)
                    Likes: 0
                    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
                    For me it's the legs. I just started cycling, but have been rowing on a stationary ergometer for years, so my cardiovascular conditioning is pretty good. The legs are what do me in. On a really steep hill, they start to burn and gradually begin to feel weaker and weaker as I pedal. Eventually, I stop. I could keep going but for them. However, the legs seem pretty easy to train. It takes a long time to build up cardio fitness, but my legs seem to be getting into shape pretty fast.
                    Joe Schmoe is offline  
                    Old 11-23-05, 09:01 AM
                      #15  
                    NoRacer
                    Isaias
                     
                    NoRacer's Avatar
                     
                    Join Date: Sep 2005
                    Location: Essex, MD
                    Posts: 5,182

                    Bikes: Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)

                    Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 7 Post(s)
                    Likes: 0
                    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
                    Originally Posted by Joe Schmoe
                    For me it's the legs. I just started cycling, but have been rowing on a stationary ergometer for years, so my cardiovascular conditioning is pretty good. The legs are what do me in. On a really steep hill, they start to burn and gradually begin to feel weaker and weaker as I pedal. Eventually, I stop. I could keep going but for them. However, the legs seem pretty easy to train. It takes a long time to build up cardio fitness, but my legs seem to be getting into shape pretty fast.

                    This is generally what most people think. They don't link the ability to supply working muscles with fuels for energy, to CV fitness, when in fact, getting and processing fuel, which also requires getting oxygen to the working muscles is a big part of CV fitness. Muscle strength is another area of consideration, but muscle strength development is trivial compared to CV development.

                    The 'components' of a fit CV system does not simply consist of heart, lungs, veins, and arteries. The system includes the miles and miles of capillaries that get fuels and oxygen to the working muscles.

                    How do you improve?
                    Long term aerobic training. This means riding long and often at intensities under lactate threshold (LT).

                    How do you reverse some of your aerobic improvements?
                    "Red-lining" your rides. Red-lining improves the wrong system. It improves the anaerobic processing of energy and your muscle's ability to buffer the acidic environment created in your muscles from 'going anaerobic'. This system -does- need attention, especially if you will be racing, but it has to occur at the right time within a training macro-cycle and in the correct doses, otherwise, it is best to stay under LT.
                    NoRacer is offline  
                    Old 11-24-05, 07:01 AM
                      #16  
                    kuan
                    Twincities MN
                     
                    kuan's Avatar
                     
                    Join Date: May 2005
                    Location: Salsa, Cannondale, Surly.
                    Posts: 2,528
                    Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 0 Post(s)
                    Likes: 0
                    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
                    Isn't it that if you can't reach your MHR that it's likely legs, and if you reach MHR easy that it's cardio?

                    At least that's what came to me last night.
                    __________________
                    www.marrow.org
                    kuan is offline  
                    Old 11-24-05, 09:25 PM
                      #17  
                    DannoXYZ 
                    Senior Member
                     
                    DannoXYZ's Avatar
                     
                    Join Date: Jul 2005
                    Location: Saratoga, CA
                    Posts: 11,739
                    Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
                    Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
                    Quoted: 102 Post(s)
                    Likes: 0
                    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
                    Originally Posted by NoRacer
                    I don't believe the lungs are a bottleneck, but the other cardiovascular adaptations that occur from long term training, such as:

                                      The above list has much more affect on climbing/sprinting/endurance than normal human lung capacity.
                                      What are your measurable quantities for each of those factors? Wouldn't you have to measure each and every one for each individual to find what the rate-limiting step is? It's like a production line and the very first step is a lungful of air of certain numbers of liters. You need to measure the rate that the oxygen is transported to the muscles and back out again and find out the relative rates of each step. Like streamlining a production-line to be most efficient, you need to identify the rate-limiting step. It's different for everyone.

                                      Actual lung-capacity as in volume of air that can be inhaled in a single-breath isn't as important as how much oxygen actually passes into the bloodstream on the other side (milli-moles/second). The actual lung-capacity of riders in the TDF varies by over 50%, yet their power-output and speeds are much, much closer than that.

                                      Also optimizing climbing/sprinting/endurance will require focusing on a different system. Typically there's an inverse relationship between climbing vs. sprinting speed.
                                      DannoXYZ is offline  
                                      Related Topics
                                      Thread
                                      Thread Starter
                                      Forum
                                      Replies
                                      Last Post
                                      db130
                                      Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
                                      6
                                      08-11-14 12:39 PM
                                      Hiflyer112
                                      Touring
                                      0
                                      01-28-09 05:40 AM
                                      supahjew
                                      Road Cycling
                                      16
                                      05-04-06 03:03 PM

                                      Posting Rules
                                      You may not post new threads
                                      You may not post replies
                                      You may not post attachments
                                      You may not edit your posts

                                      BB code is On
                                      Smilies are On
                                      [IMG] code is On
                                      HTML code is Off


                                      Thread Tools
                                      Search this Thread

                                      Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

                                      Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.